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    South African Casspir

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    d_taddei2

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    South African Casspir

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:59 am

    for info only. never knew it was based on a Russian design.
    For some reason the forum doesnt have an African section on its Global Defence and Strategic Issues, which is crazy to miss out a whole continent. Maybe the mods can include a section for Africa.

    http://survincity.com/2010/05/south-african-military-equipment-based-on-russian/
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    GarryB

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:34 am

    South African troops have at their disposal new Mine complex Casspir, which differs from previous versions in that there are elements of Russian "Ural".

    I would suggest that the above comment means the original Caspir is not Russian based and only this current model has influences from Ural in it...


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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:37 am

    Actually the Casspir comes from a BTR152 captured and tested. It was very bad. The caisson/hull was thrown on a Saxon chassis which proved and even worse nightmare. They selected then a Magirus Deutz chassis and rolling train and put a Bus hull over a Denel designed caisson (V-shaped hull). This proved very interesting. The thing had a good byproduct, which was the height, that allowed a perfect bush vantage point, and a very bad one (height painted a huge target on the Casspir).

    Not a bad machine, but very specific and many MRAP vehicles have added more strain to the logistics, than provided real resilience when all things are taken into consideration. Most of them are employed into a low intensity conflicts and people (look @Yemen) have found a way to render them useless.

    wilhelm

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:27 pm

    The BTR-152, Saxon, or Magirus Deutz had nothing to do whatsoever with the Casspir.
    The Casspir was a monocoque vehicle design, and thus had no chassis.

    Nor, as is implied in the original post, was it based on any "Russian design". As Gary intimates, the later version mentioned, the Mk6, has Ural mechanicals as part of an Indian projected order. This Mk6 is designed as an "open architecture" vehicle which can use COTS components from a variety of manufacturers.
    The Casspir history is quite interesting, and builds on earlier South African APC's in the same vein from over 40 years ago. It actually was a development of the earlier Hippo Mk2 monocoque vehicle, which also was the design origin point for the Rinkhals vehicle.
    The whole history of the various vehicles and prototypes stretching back almost 50 years is very interesting.

    On my crappy phone so can't give a more detailed reply right now...
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:28 am

    wilhelm wrote:The BTR-152, Saxon, or Magirus Deutz had nothing to do whatsoever with the Casspir.
    The Casspir was a monocoque vehicle design, and thus had no chassis.

    Nor, as is implied in the original post, was it based on any "Russian design". As Gary intimates, the later version mentioned, the Mk6, has Ural mechanicals as part of an Indian projected order. This Mk6 is designed as an "open architecture" vehicle which can use COTS components from a variety of manufacturers.
    The Casspir history is quite interesting, and builds on earlier South African APC's in the same vein from over 40 years ago. It actually was a development of the earlier Hippo Mk2 monocoque vehicle, which also was the design origin point for the Rinkhals vehicle.
    The whole history of the various vehicles and prototypes stretching back almost 50 years is very interesting.

    On my crappy phone so can't give a more detailed reply right now...

    The problem is that the first Gen Casspirs were using Mg-Dz rolling train (SaMil 50/60?) that was first tested in the Kwoevel testbed. That the "Monocoque" hull = Caisson is a "Bus" directly chopped from British Saxon design with sponsons.

    You can trace the Saffie MRAP family back to three families. With one outlier.

    1. The Landie family. (Landrover Chassis and rolling train). Kudu, Leopard etc.
    2. The Unimog Family. (Unimog rolling train) Buffel. etc.
    3. The SaMil family. (Mg-Dz rolling train). Kwevoel 1/2 etc

    And there's the Alvis/Saxon chop job with the Tempest MPV which in return was discarded as soon as it was fielded (unprotected engine) and most of the rolling train was replaced with US parts. The Alvis 4x4 was born, and then died for the ALVIS 4 wich was the Mamba without the Mamba.

    Then you had the Pookies (VW Beetle rolling train) and Spinnies for Demin. Both would result in the Meerkat.

    You know there's always more than what meets the eye.

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:03 am

    You obviously have taken the time and have knowledge of some of the history KoTeMoRe , but once again, the Casspir was not based on the Magirus Deutz, nor the Saxon. It had nothing to do with them at all.
    The Casspir had Mercedes Benz components.

    It stemmed from the Hippo Mk 2 monocoque vehicle, which itself was a radical development from the Hippo Mk1 which used Bedford components. At the time of the Hippo Mk 1, the Army still used the Bedford, but were replacing it with the Magirus Deutz based SAMIL range of vehicles. There is a long line of early APC's based on Bedford mechanicals from the early to mid 1970's.
    The Saxon had nothing to do with the Casspir. The Saxon is Bedford component based. The Casspir is an earlier vehicle than the Saxon. It is a far superior vehicle. Even if the Saxon managed to to time warp a few years earlier, Britain had sanctions on South Africa and that wouldn't have been available. And thank goodness for that.
    The Kwevoel range are SAMIL (MagDeutz) based and have nothing to do with the Casspir.
    The Casspir was originally designed for the police COIN units, not the Army. The fact that it turned out to be better than the Army's Buffel, which did have a chassis, and was Unimog based, resulted in the Army placing the majority of the orders.

    No BTR-152, Saxon, or Magirus Deutz in the Casspir at all. Later other Army APC prototypes did indeed use Magirus Deutz in an attempt to rationalise fleet spares holdings.

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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:51 am

    wilhelm wrote:You obviously have taken the time and have knowledge of some of the history KoTeMoRe , but once again, the Casspir was not based on the Magirus Deutz, nor the Saxon. It had nothing to do with them at all.
    The Casspir had Mercedes Benz components.

    It stemmed from the Hippo Mk 2 monocoque vehicle, which itself was a radical development from the Hippo Mk1 which used Bedford components. At the time of the Hippo Mk 1, the Army still used the Bedford, but were replacing it with the Magirus Deutz based SAMIL range of vehicles. There is a long line of early APC's based on Bedford mechanicals from the early to mid 1970's.
    The Saxon had nothing to do with the Casspir. The Saxon is Bedford component based. The Casspir is an earlier vehicle than the Saxon. It is a far superior vehicle. Even if the Saxon managed to to time warp a few years earlier, Britain had sanctions on South Africa and that wouldn't have been available. And thank goodness for that.
    The Kwevoel range are SAMIL (MagDeutz) based and have nothing to do with the Casspir.
    The Casspir was originally designed for the police COIN units, not the Army. The fact that it turned out to be better than the Army's Buffel, which did have a chassis, and was Unimog based, resulted in the Army placing the majority of the orders.

    No BTR-152, Saxon, or Magirus Deutz in the Casspir at all. Later other Army APC prototypes did indeed use Magirus Deutz in an attempt to rationalise fleet spares holdings.


    Well I'm willing to reconsider.

    The Saxon was an abomination, off course it was inferior I say as much. The tests included Monoarm rolling train and dampers from the Bedford M/TK (base for Hippo Mk2). The final product was typical swivel-like rolling train on a central mast from the SaMil Tanker. Of course this could have been only the final product. And the testbed could have bee Mercedes sourced.

    However the Saxon itself was based on Bedford M/TK aka Bedford 70 for the rest of the Commonwealth which served as the base for Hippo mk2...and before the "same vehicle" was made and failed to win a contract based on the same Bedford RL (which was ironically still won by Alvis with the Stalwart). I think we have been saying mostly the same thing.

    There was more likely than not a class test with oversized "Bedford" components.
    This was clearly a fiasco (as even the Hippo was replaced by Unimog-based Buffel). And they went to the most logical choice, which was either M-B sourced components or straight up Mg-Dz (SaMil) components or a bit of both. At the end, the Clear structure with the central mast, for the 4x4 shows that the UniMog underpinnings weren't kept, for obvious cost issues.

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:07 pm

    It is an interesting topic.

    There is an old book, from the 1980's, that dealt with the mine protected vehicles, called Taming the Landmine from Peter Stiff. It is dated now, but gives an interesting insight into some of the earlier vehicles.
    A much more modern book, published a year or two ago, is Surviving the Ride by Steve Camp and Helmoed Romer Heitman, who was a reserve officer in the Army. I haven't got it yet, but here is a sample of some of the pages:

    https://books.google.ie/books?id=yO2ZBgAAQBAJ&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=surviving+the+ride+steve+camp&source=bl&ots=0N3E0DcZsR&sig=QcYx8Ctu4fasrYMusR5WByjCvvI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5n8aLyaHKAhVEPRoKHUOHA5kQ6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=surviving%20the%20ride%20steve%20camp&f=false

    It deals not only with the mine protected APC's, but also with the heavier Infantry Fighting Vehicles and armoured cars that also had mine protection designed in from the start.

    South Africa was no longer a member of the commonwealth by the time these vehicles were developed, having declared itself a republic in 1961 and leaving the Commonwealth at the same time.
    This, in conjunction with the arms embargo, lead to a replacement of British equipment. Large factories were built and licences taken out for equipment such as engines as a drive to import substitution. As such, platforms such as the Bedford were replaced with locally made variants of the Magirus Deutz, as an example, and a large diesel engine manufacturing plant was built outside of Cape Town that manufactured a whole range of diesel engines. It is also worth bearing in mind that German companies such as MAN, Bussing, and Mercedes Benz had large manufacturing factories and assembly lines in South Africa for decades.

    The Buffel was interesting, in that South Africa was at the time replacing Bedford and Unimog platforms with local Magirus Deutz platforms called the SAMIL range. When the Buffel was originally tested, although it was superior to previous Bedford based APC's, the Army was still unhappy that it wasn't SAMIL based, hence why a similar platform called the Bulldog was developed. In the 1980's, there were a variety of more developed vehicles designed to replace the Casspir and Buffel based on various platforms, many of them SAMIL based (Project Sireb, Project Remark, Veldskoen...etc). Some of these were APC's, but some of them were a crossover with features found in IFV's (Infantry Fighting Vehicles).
    The Casspir was originally developed for the police, so it's Mercedes Benz components over SAMIL (Magirus Deutz) or Unimog components wasn't seen as an issue.
    As you say, many of the early mine proof APC's and vehicles in South Africa in the early/mid 1970's had Bedford, Unimog, or Ford mechanicals.


    The move from Bedford mechanicals was a good thing. The Saxon absolutely in no way compares to the Casspir in mine proofing/protection or ability. There is more to it than simply an angled hull...degree of slope, the type of seam/weld, the mounting of external components, seats that take back compression into consideration etc etc.
    I wouldn't want to be in a Saxon detonating a triple TM-57 mine like the Casspir was designed to do. Mincemeat.

    There is a lot of misinformation out there on the internet regarding mineproof vehicles regarding Rhodesia and South Africa. South Africa, with it's hugely bigger industrial base, were the pioneers in this field, not Rhodesia as is often stated. South Africa after all has a much much larger industrial base, and manufactured thousands of armoured vehicles and artillery pieces in WW2, for example.
    Back in 1970 was when the first requirements were issued, leading to such pioneer vehicles as the Telefoonhokkie (Phone Booth) and the Kameel (Camel), Hyena, Wolf, and Bosvark.
    Almost all of those predated Rhodesian efforts, apart from some rustic in-field conversions that weren't based on proper laboratory or scientific testing.
    Dr Vernon Joynt was the one of the standout leading pioneers in the field, and on the Casspir, and indeed, he had a large part in designing the American Buffalo, which is squarely based on the Casspir (an earlier 6x6 version) but with American mechanicals.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:59 pm


    Saffie engineering when it comes to the core deal was absolutely amazing, especially when the whole Embargo is taken into consideration. Now I might have not appreciated the racialist undertones and some existentialist views of the Afrikaner movement, but there's no denying they (you) did wonders with less than nothing.

    Hyena is funny because its the one of the first tension based rudimentary RPG-deflecting system out there.

    http://rhodesians.ru/ru/node/66

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:04 pm

    KoTeMoRe, as you have an interest in the subject, and as you obviously know quite a bit about it, this link below will be of great interest to you. You might know it already?
    Unfortunately, you have to register to see the interesting pictures of the various vehicles over the hundred pages, but it is free, quick, and well worth it.

    http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9088.0.html

    EDIT: Thanks for that link above! I'll have a look through it.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:10 pm

    wilhelm wrote:KoTeMoRe, as you have an interest in the subject, and as you obviously know quite a bit about it, this link below will be of great interest to you. You might know it already?
    Unfortunately, you have to register to see the interesting pictures of the various vehicles over the hundred pages, but it is free, quick, and well worth it.

    http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9088.0.html

    EDIT: Thanks for that link above! I'll have a look through it.

    There are Amazing pictures of Saffie ingenuity. The Kudu's are absolute wonders.

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:14 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote: The Kudu's are absolute wonders.

    The Kudu is indeed very interesting. The standoff screens at the angle operates not only as an RPG screen, but it tumbles any bullet fired at it, ruining it's trajectory/armour piercing. A bullet/projectile tumbler.

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:40 pm

    Here is an interesting picture from the early/mid 1980's.
    These vehicles are part of Project Remark to replace the Buffel. The Buffel is on the far left, and the Casspir on the far right, and they were used as control, or benchmark vehicles to as a standard when testing.



    From left to right:
    Buffel (Unimog components)
    Remark 34 (Ratel IFV components)
    Remark 33 (SAMIL components)
    Remark 32 (Mercedes Benz components)
    Remark 31 (Ratel components)
    Casspir (Mercedes Benz components)

    Remark 34 was the most complex, and it was decided in the end to combine the best features of all the vehicles, as well as those of the vehicles from Project Addax (another project which developed into the AC200 vehicle) into a new vehicle called Veldskoen. The settling of hostilities, end of the Cold War, and the slashing of the defence budget brought the programme to an end.
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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:49 pm

    There isn't a like option anymore.

    The lineup is impressive. And the Casspir looks really like a simplified choice from Remark 33/32. The 32 needs moar pictures.

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:13 pm

    10 companies were approached for proposals for Project Remark, of which 4 companies submitted designs. SAMCOR, TFM, Magnis, and Dorbyl/Sandock Austral.
    Remark 31 was SAMCOR and weighed 15 tons.
    Remark 32 was was TFM (12,5 tons)
    Remark 33 was Magnis (15 tons)
    Remark 34 was Dorbyl/Sandock Austral (16 tons)

    All used various Atlantis Diesel Engines (ADE) manufactured in the large new Atlantis diesel engine factory outside of Cape Town. I think these were German designed engines.

    Remark 32 was designed by TFM. The Casspir was designed by the CSIR and apart from the first 200 or so vehicles, the Casspir from the Mark 2 onwards was manufactured by TFM. TFM later was bought out by Reumech OMC, which modified and redeveloped the Centurion into the Olifant Mk 1, Mk1A, and later Mk1B. They also designed the replacement TTD, which was a Leopard 2 class tank.

    Here are the side profiles of the Remark vehicles but the Casspir is gone and a Ratel 20 IFV is in its place.
    If I recall correctly, Remark 34 was the winner, but a decision was taken to build a follow on, further developed vehicle based on it, incorporating desirable features from the other vehicles, as well as features from the Project Addax vehicles (AC200).



    I might have some pics somewhere of Remark 32 if you're interested?
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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:21 pm

    Yeah that central trannie mast on the Rk 33 is giving the SaMil rolling trai away. But the Remark 32 is very interesting.

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:55 pm

    Remark 32 from TFM had the ADE352TI diesel with torque converter in the front and a ZF 6WG180 gearbox situated in the middle of the vehicle. Mercedes Benz APL axles with parabolic leaf springs were fitted. Combat mass of 12500kg, ground clearance of 420mm and height of 3119mm. Troops were seated back to back.





    ZF transmissions were built in South Africa under licence.

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:45 pm

    For comparison, the Remark 33.
    Designed by Magnis, it made use of SAMIL-50MkII components and was fitted with an ADE 409N diesel engine and ZF S6-65 gearbox via a Z65 transfer case. SAMIL-50 axles and suspension components were used. Combat weight of 15 000kg, ground clearance of 355mm and height of 3211mm. It had back to back seating in it's enclosed troop compartment.

    All info is from Surviving the Ride by Steve Camp and Helmoed Romer Heitman as found on google books.



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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:52 pm

    Clearly there's is potential for misinformation there. Both look awfully similar. And I guess "experts" might have taken shortcuts when describing these animals.

    Very HUGE thank you.

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:53 pm

    I must say though that I find the vehicle that followed these, a combination of the Project Remark and Project Addax, more interesting. That was the Veldskoen.
    It was quite a sophisticated vehicle with features combining an APC and IFV. It had rear hydraulic ramps, and although this Project Remark was started to repace the Buffel, by the time this had been developed further into the Veldskoen, it was mooted to replace both the Buffel and Casspir, and was to have the ability to operate in a wider variety of roles.
    Veldskoen was designed to handle a triple Soviet TM-57 anti tank mine under each wheel, and a double TM-57 directly under the hull with no hull damage or deformation. It had to be completely repairable in the field after such an event by a Mobile Light Workshop team, and be fully operational again, in less than two hours.

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    Re: South African Casspir

    Post  wilhelm on Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:56 pm

    Back to the Casspir, the newest variant is the NG (New Generation) Casspir 2000, built by Mechem.



    There will be an entire family based on the NG Casspir 2000, in 4x4, 6x6, and 8x8 format. Mechanicals will be new Mercedes Benz based.
    Below is the recent 6x6 vehicle, in the Recovery vehicle role. I look forward to the 8x8 when it is revealed.




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    Re: South African Casspir

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