Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Share
    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1943
    Points : 2060
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    S-37

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:42 am

    S-37



    More images at https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sukhoi235/274461099257188


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:52 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5359
    Points : 5592
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    S-37 airplane

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:17 am

    The most sexy plane ever build, imo.
    avatar
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2151
    Points : 2252
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:23 pm

    On 11 August 2014, General V. Bondarev said that the new prototype of Su-47 will be unveiled in the very near future.

    Sources:

    (sorry for all inconveniences, as I am a newbie, I have not been able to post external address links yet)

    In "aviaport.ru", article "Работы по программе создания самолета с обратной стреловидностью крыла продолжаются - главком ВВС"
    (in Russian)

    In arms-expo.ru, article "Главком ВВС РФ пообещал в ближайшее время продемонстрировать прототип истребителя Су-47"
    (in Russian)

    In website "soha.vn", article "Đại bàng vàng Su-47 sẽ được tung cánh"
    (in Vietnamese)

    I wonder... I use the word "renew" may be wrong, since it seems like general V. Bondarev said that the works about Su-47 has never been stopped or stagnated. (Vietnamese is my native language, but I have to use Google Translate to deal with Russian... anyone can speak this language ?)

    V. Bondarev wrote:Я думаю, что со временем мы этот самолет увидим, или прототип его, недалеко то время (We will see this plane, or a prototype of it in not a far time.)

    V. Bondarev wrote:(take from the Vietnamese translation)

    Nó hiện chưa được thực hiện đến cùng. Công việc không bị đình hoãn, lý thuyết đang được nghiên cứu, tôi nghĩ rằng với thời gian chúng ta sẽ trông thấy máy bay này hay mẫu chế thử của nó.....Trong tương lai gần, Không quân Nga sẽ giới thiệu máy bay có cánh hình tên ngược nhỏ, nó cũng cho phép cải thiện việc đào tạo học viên. Chúng tôi đã không bỏ đề tài này.

    (At the moment it has not beer carry out till the end. But the works are not stagnated, the theory are still being developed. I belive when time passes we will see this plane or its prototype.... In the near future, Russian Air Force will introduce the foward-swept wing aircraft. It will also help in improve the training of cadets. We do not abandon this project.)

    Su-47 is certainly one of my most favourite fighter, probably because of the impressive foward-swept wing design. But as far as I know, this design is very vulnerable against the air barrier, meanwhile superstrong composite material is not cheap... I am curious to see how the Russians manage to mass produce this piece economically.
    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1943
    Points : 2060
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:31 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:On 11 August 2014, General V. Bondarev said that the new prototype of Su-47 will be unveiled in the very near future.

    Sources:

    (sorry for all inconveniences, as I am a newbie, I have not been able to post external address links yet)

    In "aviaport.ru", article "Работы по программе создания самолета с обратной стреловидностью крыла продолжаются - главком ВВС"
    (in Russian)

    In arms-expo.ru, article "Главком ВВС РФ пообещал в ближайшее время продемонстрировать прототип истребителя Су-47"
    (in Russian)

    In website "soha.vn", article "Đại bàng vàng Su-47 sẽ được tung cánh"
    (in Vietnamese)

    I wonder... I use the word "renew" may be wrong, since it seems like general V. Bondarev said that the works about Su-47 has never been stopped or stagnated. (Vietnamese is my native language, but I have to use Google Translate to deal with Russian... anyone can speak this language ?)

    V. Bondarev wrote:Я думаю, что со временем мы этот самолет увидим, или прототип его, недалеко то время (We will see this plane, or a prototype of it in not a far time.)

    V. Bondarev wrote:(take from the Vietnamese translation)

    Nó hiện chưa được thực hiện đến cùng. Công việc không bị đình hoãn, lý thuyết đang được nghiên cứu, tôi nghĩ rằng với thời gian chúng ta sẽ trông thấy máy bay này hay mẫu chế thử của nó.....Trong tương lai gần, Không quân Nga sẽ giới thiệu máy bay có cánh hình tên ngược nhỏ, nó cũng cho phép cải thiện việc đào tạo học viên. Chúng tôi đã không bỏ đề tài này.

    (At the moment it has not beer carry out till the end. But the works are not stagnated, the theory are still being developed. I belive when time passes we will see this plane or its prototype.... In the near future, Russian Air Force will introduce the foward-swept wing aircraft. It will also help in improve the training of cadets. We do not abandon this project.)

    Su-47 is certainly one of my most favourite fighter, probably because of the impressive foward-swept wing design. But as far as I know, this design is very vulnerable against the air barrier, meanwhile superstrong composite material is not cheap... I am curious to see how the Russians manage to mass produce this piece economically.

    That's interesting.

    Welcome to the forum.
    avatar
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5359
    Points : 5592
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:53 pm

    Yes, would be nice to see the beauty someday in some version in active duty.
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 800
    Points : 884
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:05 pm

    That's quite surprising. I'm always thought it's a merely tech demonstrator.

    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2760
    Points : 2806
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:30 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:That's quite surprising. I'm always thought it's a merely tech demonstrator.


    Same here... I wonder if they would buy it if Russia already has the PAK-FA?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16375
    Points : 16990
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:07 am

    As far as I know the forward swept wing is ideal for subsonic aircraft but in theory it should also be rather more efficient for high speed flight too.

    For those not familiar a very simple explaination is that a straight wing generates more life but also generates more drag. The faster you fly the more drag is created so as you get faster a sweep back of the wing can reduce drag while still generating lift.

    the main problem is that sometimes the air does not just flow straight over the wing and with very sharply swept wings the air can flow down the sweep. When it gets to the end of the wing the high pressure air and the low pressure air mix and form a huge vortex that generates parasitic drag.

    One solution is the wing in ground effect where short broad wings are used on aircraft that fly very close to the ground so the vortex does not form properly and drag is greatly reduced.

    another solution is winglets which reduces but does not eliminate the vortex.

    Another solution is wing fences but again these do not eliminate the vortex.

    the forward swept wing results in the span wise flow heading towards the wing root instead of the wing tip so the wing tip vortex is practically eliminated as a significant force on the aircraft.

    careful design allows the spanwise flow to add to lift by flowing over the lifting body fuselage instead of creating a vortex at the wingtip.

    The direct result is an enormous reduction in drag, which means the wing can be made smaller and lighter... which further reduces drag etc etc.

    The main problem is that in a turn the forces on the wing tend to make it bend upwards which increases the lift and drag and would increase the turn rate which rapidly turns a slow turn into a broken wing.

    Modern laminates that are rigid in one direction and relatively flexible in the other promised a forward swept wing strong enough not to break in a turn but flexible enough to promise an active reshapable wing so you can have it flat and low drag for high speed flight and curved and high lift for takeoff and landing. A really active wing could mean no leading edge slats and flaps which would greatly reduce RCS as well.

    Personally I would think if they can solve the problems of high speed a forward swept wing offers lower drag and higher lift.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Werewolf

    Posts : 5359
    Points : 5592
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:54 am

    Thanks for the little explenation, will upvote when i can.
    avatar
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2151
    Points : 2252
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:13 pm

    @Garry: I am quite curious at how the Russian will solve the problem of high speed. I think the material used to reinforce the wing is not cheap, at least until now.
    avatar
    Hannibal Barca

    Posts : 1241
    Points : 1263
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:55 pm

    It is an ingenious idea! It will beat the crap out of the subsonic f35  lol1 lol1 lol1 
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16375
    Points : 16990
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Su-47 Experimental aircraft

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:16 pm

    @Garry: I am quite curious at how the Russian will solve the problem of high speed. I think the material used to reinforce the wing is not cheap, at least until now.

    On paper the problem of high speed does not actually exist. Whether forward or back swept wing... both reduce drag and should allow for high speed flight.

    the main problem for back swept wings was the shift in centre of gravity that was rather significant and required an all moving horizontal tail plane to counter the shift.

    this is the reason why a flying wing can't exceed the speed of sound normally even though it is very low drag... about as low drag as you could get actually.. even more so if you could get it to fly in stable flight backwards resulting in a forward swept flying wing.

    This is not to say a straight wing can't fly supersonically... the F-105 proves that a straight wing can do it, though it is tiny.

    the special composite materials used in the high tech wings means they can flex in one direction but not in another.

    Another problem is that because of their design and structure you can't mount anything on the wings like weapons pylons or undercarriage folding into wing cavities.

    Such limitations would rule out CAS aircraft as although they are subsonic they will need weapon stores on the wings in large numbers to be useful.

    Some sort of stealthy long range drone would benefit from forward swept wings... hard to say.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Zhukov-Patton

    Posts : 14
    Points : 27
    Join date : 2015-03-30
    Location : USA

    Su-47 Berkut (Golden Eagle)

    Post  Zhukov-Patton on Sat May 16, 2015 7:51 am

    Okay so I knew about this aircraft for a while before but thought it was one of the endless killed programs of the 90s. But I came across some stuff that said the program was still on for testing and the likes. I was just wanting to know some details and the likes. Also what is the chance of a fighter being developed with the same wing configure from the research done from this jet. Thanks for everything in advance.
    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1943
    Points : 2060
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat May 16, 2015 8:51 am

    There may be some material at Paralay at the following link. Arrow http://paralay.com/s37.html
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16375
    Points : 16990
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 16, 2015 11:49 am

    It was part of the MFI and later MFS programs that resulted in determining who would lead the PAK FA programme.

    Basically MFI was a programme to find a future medium interceptor... later changed to MFS, which broadened the requirements to be a multi role fighter bomber... They ended up as technology demonstrators, but allowed the Russian AF to decide who should create the next generation Russian multirole fighter.

    As we know Sukhoi won and it makes sense for them to continue work on the Berkut as it is currently the worlds only forward swept wing supersonic aircraft AFAIK.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4490
    Points : 4663
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Su-47 Experimental aircraft

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat May 16, 2015 2:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:It was part of the MFI and later MFS programs that resulted in determining who would lead the PAK FA programme.

    Basically MFI was a programme to find a future medium interceptor... later changed to MFS, which broadened the requirements to be a multi role fighter bomber... They ended up as technology demonstrators, but allowed the Russian AF to decide who should create the next generation Russian multirole fighter.

    As we know Sukhoi won and it makes sense for them to continue work on the Berkut as it is currently the worlds only forward swept wing supersonic aircraft AFAIK.

    I think it was a blessing in disguise that the program was halted, because one of the critical flaws within the Berkut's airframe design was how closely aligned the engine exhausts were.

    As seen here:







    ...Increasing the width of the distance between the two engine exhausts by at least '1.5 - 2' meters should not only improve the Berkut's 'instability/maneuverability' when 3-D vector nozzles are applied, it should also facilitate lowering the Berkut's 'RCS' when a 'S-Curve' is applied to the engine intakes (the effect should be rather more effective with the wider spacing), and also should lend more flexibility towards the Berkut's airframe such as adding a larger fuel tank aligned with the spine of the airframe.
    avatar
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2151
    Points : 2252
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Russian Foward-swept wing aircrafts

    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:05 am

    Didn't see the old thread about Su-47 so I made this new thread.

    https://www.rt.com/news/327664-forward-swept-wing-russia/

    Russia’s 1st forward-swept wing training aircraft performs maiden flight (VIDEO)

    A private Russian design bureau has conducted a maiden flight of an SR-10 dual-pilot forward-swept wing aerobatic trainer aircraft. It was earlier reported that it is planned to produce 16 SR-10 jets for the Defense Ministry.

    The development of the fully composite twin-seater began at the Modern Aviation Technologies (KB SAT) design engineering bureau in 2007. The initial engineering development model was presented at MAKS-2009 airshow, but in the following years the project encountered financial problems.

    On December 25, SR-10 made its first flight at an airfield near Vorotynsk, in the Kaluga Region, sdelanounas.ru website reports.

    The SR-10 is a subsonic, single engine, all-composite dual-pilot aircraft with a moderate forward-swept wing scheme. Its reported maximum takeoff weight is 2,700 kilograms. The aircraft can reportedly be powered with either a Soviet design AI-25TLSh engine or a modern Russian-made AL-55 gas-turbine jet engine.

    The SR-10’s flying quality parameters largely depend on the power unit. It was designed to have 900kph maximum horizontal flight speed, 1,500 km range capability and a 6,000-meter practical ceiling. Its cruising speed at the 6,000-meter height is 520kph.

    In 2014, the SR-10 lost a Russian Defense Ministry primary training aircraft tender to Yakovlev Yak-152 turboprop trainer aircraft. However, KB SAT is still offering the aircraft to the Air Force as an intermediate trainer.

    Dagestan’s Industry, Trade and Investment Ministry revealed plans to produce up to 16 SR-10 aircraft for Russia’s Defense Ministry, which is expected to allocate up to 2.5 billion rubles into the SR-10 project, the regional bureau of RIA news agency reported in mid-September.

    As of now, Russia’s Air Force is actively using the recently developed Yakovlev Yak-130 as an advanced jet trainer. This aircraft is also delivered to foreign militaries, being positioned also as light attack aircraft.

    Until now, the only operable forward-swept wing aircraft in Russia has been the Sukhoi Su-47 Berkut (Golden Eagle) fighter jet, which never went into mass production, yet became an advanced concept technology demonstrator and a testing ground for technical solutions later integrated into Russia’s 5G fighter jet PAK-FA.
    avatar
    max steel

    Posts : 2969
    Points : 3000
    Join date : 2015-02-12
    Location : South Pole

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  max steel on Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:09 pm

    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:41 pm



    If they could use an RD-93 engine, single seat, maybe this could be a good cheap fighter.

    Cool trainer though.
    avatar
    Militarov

    Posts : 5537
    Points : 5578
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Militarov on Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:00 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    If they could use an RD-93 engine, single seat, maybe this could be a good cheap fighter.

    Cool trainer though.

    Yak 130 based single seat light figter would be still better most likely, this is extremly light aircraft. But i am all for Russians making cheaper single engined multirole fighter.
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1708
    Points : 1865
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:16 am

    sepheronx wrote:

    If they could use an RD-93 engine, single seat, maybe this could be a good cheap fighter.

    Cool trainer though.

    RD-93 is almost as big as this plane.
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 1540
    Points : 1578
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:30 am

    Militarov wrote: Yak 130 based single seat light figter would be still better most likely, this is extremly light aircraft. But i am all for Russians making cheaper single engined multirole fighter.

    Russians already made 2 of them: L-15 and Shafagh Smile maybe in better times for export mainy (like south America/Syria/Africa) Yak-130 based 1 seat would be nice.
    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1943
    Points : 2060
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:31 am





    avatar
    Zivo

    Posts : 1491
    Points : 1521
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    I'll post this here, but if someone wants to create a dedicated SR-10 thread go ahead, I'm not sure how far this project will go.

    Post  Zivo on Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:17 am

    I'll post this here, but if someone wants to create a dedicated SR-10 thread go ahead, I'm not sure how far this project will go.








    Lots more here:

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1768923.html
    avatar
    franco

    Posts : 2504
    Points : 2542
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    SR-10 being demonstrated to the VKS at Kubinka;

    Post  franco on Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:01 pm

    SR-10 being demonstrated to the VKS at Kubinka;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzHiGIi0oE0

    Sponsored content

    Re: Forward-swept wing prototype aircrafts

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:54 am