Project 885: Yasen class

Vladimir79 wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:

Wut?  Obsolescence?  If you think Borei A and Yasen-M are in any way "obsolescent" what do you think of the SSBNs/SSNs of Western navies???  or Chinese.

Both programmes are Cold War era designs that were put on the back burner for 20 years. If they can't get over delays at this point they will be obsolete before they get them all into service.

"cold war design" in this context means the rig designed to fight peer enemies, not tropical fruit wielding tribes.


The main difference between the seawolf/zassen/akula and the "new" virginia is the later can not dive that deep, has less weapon,can sustain less combat damage, has less decoy/countermeasure and has weaker weapons.


A Seawolf / YAssen with OR without updated systems can mop the floor with the Virginias.

GarryB wrote:But then the F-22 and Typhoon and Rafale were all cold war designs too... obsolescence is not determined by age, but by how it compares with its current contemporaries... and in the case of the Borei, the Ohio SSBN do not render any modern Borei obsolete...

Precisely! Great definition!

Vladimir79 wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:
Wut?  Obsolescence?  If you think Borei A and Yasen-M are in any way "obsolescent" what do you think of the SSBNs/SSNs of Western navies???  or Chinese.

Both programmes are Cold War era designs that were put on the back burner for 20 years. If they can't get over delays at this point they will be obsolete before they get them all into service.

Stock Borei and Yasen are Cold War era.

Borei-A and Yasen-M are heavily updated (Borei has different hull shape and they have Borei-B designed and good to go which is even more modified with only price being the sticking point).

If delays are issue then scraping these and starting God knows what from scratch will make current delays and pricetag look like good old days.

If they need alterations they should do it on existing platform. Just look at Virginia class, they switch to new version every 6-10 hulls and are on fifth​ version now.

Can you imagine the mess they would have if they were designing and building 5 new classes in that same period of time?

Don't try to reinvent the wheel and stick with what works, if they want to experiment they should do it after they rebuild basic fleet.

Both programmes are Cold War era designs that were put on the back burner for 20 years. If they can't get over delays at this point they will be obsolete before they get them all into service.

Still better than relying on even older akulas, deltas and oscars.

Husky is already started. It's gonna be the low price SSN they need. Boreis will operate under the north pole where even deltas can't be found no need better and it is pretty cheap. Yasen brings a fire power of 40 supersonic AShM and LACM for the size of an akula.

PapaDragon wrote:

Vladimir79 wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:
Wut?  Obsolescence?  If you think Borei A and Yasen-M are in any way "obsolescent" what do you think of the SSBNs/SSNs of Western navies???  or Chinese.

Both programmes are Cold War era designs that were put on the back burner for 20 years.  If they can't get over delays at this point they will be obsolete before they get them all into service.  

Stock Borei and Yasen are Cold War era.

Borei-A and Yasen-M are heavily updated (Borei has different hull shape and they have Borei-B designed and good to go which is even more modified with only price being the sticking point).

If delays are issue then scraping these and starting God knows what from scratch will make current delays and pricetag look like good old days.

If they need alterations they should do it on existing platform. Just look at Virginia class, they switch to new version every 6-10 hulls and are on fifth​ version now.

Can you imagine the mess they would have if they were designing and building 5 new classes in that same period of time?

Don't try to reinvent the wheel and stick with what works, if they want to experiment they should do it after they rebuild basic fleet.

Neither Yasen or Borei are cold war eras .
they began their construction during Cold war that is the Hull and perhaps the nuclear reactor too..
but everything else is new.. Yasen use Kalibr missiles which are modern and not cold war era .
Borei ,use Bulava missiles.. neither cold war era.. the only Cold war era submarines are the American ones..
those Ohio have near 50 years in service most of them and those Trident missiles are outdated missiles from the 80s.. Virginia submarines and Seawolf class subs use super Outdated dinosaurs weapons , like Tomahawks in service since early 80s.. and the even older Harpoons from the late 70s.. This is technology from the early 70s..  Thats what i will call OLD and outdated Tech..   as a matter of fact ,the Ohio subs are about to become decommissioned , their nuclear reactors will not last another 10 years , and it will be very expensive to replace them.. more cheaper to build a new one..  Those Submarines will start to be scrapped in just 5-7 years from now..
So US will be in serious trouble because will need to start again from Zero..  rebuilding its entire nuclear ballistic subs force ,since they reaching the end of their life..  Sea wolf and virginia class will still continue ,but using Super Obsolete missiles.. like tomahwaks and harpoons.. only useful against third world nations..

So compare this technology ..
US seawolf and virginia use...
harpoons and tomahawks missiles.. technology in service since 1977/1983..  

Ohio class submarines.
Trident missiles .. technology from late 70s ,in service since ,then upgraded a bit .
in a second upgraded version.. still old missile.. with very old technology..
 Trident missiles will be all decomissioned in 2027.. just 8 years from now. So Russia will be safe after that.  
And US will face a major issue of starting against from zero ..

Borei and yasen are submarines that enter in service with modern technology since 2013/2015
armed with state of the art BUlava and Kalibr missiles also brand new technology from Russia..
not (cold war eras) as you claim.. perhaps the hull is old and kitchen too and the toilet..  
no point in building another new hull ,when you have one already , that could be used..
But the things that matter ,the weapons and the sonar and electronics are pretty modern modern..
The latest Borei and yasen will have even more features and more advanced electronics..

US warships and submarines are so obsolete ,that they depend on extreme saturation attacks ,as they did in Syria , fire 100+ missiles ,to target a pharmaceutical bulding.. They will need to spend a huge fortune ,to modernize their entire navy.. probably US navy will lose 70% of their navy , in just 10 years.. Ticonderogas and airlegbuk class also Cold war era warships..

Alexander Shishkin said that the first two Yasens are much slower than the American Seawolf and Virginia-class submarines when traveling at the same noise level.

Arrow wrote:Alexander Shishkin said that the first two Yasens are much slower than the American Seawolf and Virginia-class submarines when traveling at the same noise level.

Is that the lobbyist idiot who wrote that fantasy blog about 12 submarines instantly located during exercises?

The same as he wrote about the tragic situation of the Russian submarine fleet.

Arrow wrote:The same as he wrote about the tragic situation of the Russian submarine fleet.

He is a retard who pulls stuff out of his ass

One of those morons who have wet dreams about Russian CVN fleet and blame submarine fleet for screwing them over by actually being useful unlike surface fleet

Nobody would tell that cretin noise numbers for either Russian or US submarines so he is obviously making sh*t up

Stop quoting retards, you just make yourself look bad

H I Sutton
‏ @CovertShores
3h3 hours ago

New analysis by Chris Carlson (Harpoon, Admiralty Trilogy) concludes that #Russia new #submarine Kazan (Yasen-B) probably has massive conformal sonar array. Impressive tech. http://www.admiraltytrilogy.com/pdf/Project_885_885M%20Comparison.pdf … website http://www.admiraltytrilogy.com/reading.php

Thats a really interesting analysis
Makes a lot of sense.

Certainly the absence of separate flank arrays has been previously noted.
If the sphere is really that big it might not need the flank arrays.

Interesting bit about the separate pressure vessel between the sphere & the main pressure hull, in which case just removing the flank arrays doesn't explain the shorter bow -> there must be a bigger change.

Lada style conformal array may well be exactly the sort of change that would provide both equal/better sensor and ability for the bow to be shorter.

That conformal sonar is probably another reason why construction of Kilos is being discontinued in favor of Ladas

Far superior performance

owais.usmani wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
That conformal sonar is probably another reason why construction of Kilos is being discontinued in favor of Ladas

Being discontinued?

Haven't they also started construction Kilo subs for the Pacific fleet as well?

Yes, those will be last Kilos for Russian Navy

They switched to Ladas after that

They were supposed to be building all new Ladas, 6* Kilos for BSF and then 2nd 6* for Pacific was because Lada wasn't working properly.

hoom wrote:They were supposed to be building all new Ladas, 6* Kilos for BSF and then 2nd 6* for Pacific was because Lada wasn't working properly.

Kilo-class is discontinued, 6 for Pacific were last ones​, SSKs ordered since then were Ladas

They are not going back to Kilos

They were supposed to switch to Ladas 12 boats back and not have built any 636.6 for the Russian navy at all.

'Discontinued' is a wrong word, would imply they stop building the 6 for Pacific & switched them to Ladas, which they're not.
They're continuing the planned 6 for Pacific and there was no plan for more.

hoom wrote:They were supposed to switch to Ladas 12 boats back and not have built any 636.6 for the Russian navy at all.

'Discontinued' is a wrong word, would imply they stop building the 6 for Pacific & switched them to Ladas, which they're not.
They're continuing the planned 6 for Pacific and there was no plan for more.

That was ancient history, hell they were still buddies with Europeans back then and thought they would be allowed to become something​ relevant or whatever stories they were telling themselves at the time

And when I said discontinued I meant same thing you just said, one product finished it's run so they are switching to next one

Except the entire run for Pacific hasn't been delivered yet, only the 1st has been launched -> continuing production.

Anyway back to topic: I like the idea of a big conformal array on the Yasen Ms

JohninMK wrote:
H I Sutton
‏ @CovertShores
3h3 hours ago

New analysis by Chris Carlson (Harpoon, Admiralty Trilogy) concludes that #Russia new #submarine Kazan (Yasen-B) probably has massive conformal sonar array. Impressive tech. http://www.admiraltytrilogy.com/pdf/Project_885_885M%20Comparison.pdf … website http://www.admiraltytrilogy.com/reading.php

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D9Z3_rHWwAE2Zud.jpg

this would be a rare success story for the troubled Russian submarine production base.

Boiler plate pro-NATO propaganda. This isn't 2005, if it is not quite clear why such statements are BS.

kvs wrote:Boiler plate pro-NATO propaganda.    This isn't 2005, if it is not quite clear why such statements are BS.

Don't take it too seriously....they like to tell themselves these things to feel better

kvs wrote:....

this would be a rare success story for the troubled Russian submarine production base.

Boiler plate pro-NATO propaganda. This isn't 2005, if it is not quite clear why such statements are BS.

Wait, they have been making several varieties of Borei SSBN in larger numbers than frigates but Yasen of all things is "rare success story"?

Man, if Yasen is success then Boreis are probably being built faster than espresso machines...

The American Navy should not be underestimated. The Harpoons r outdated, but they r upgrading Tomahawks for anti-ship role: The Tomahawk Block V is planned to go into production in 2020, the Block Va being the Maritime Strike Tomahawk (MST) which allows the missile to engage a moving target at sea and the Block Vb outfitted with the JMEWS warhead for hard-target penetration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)#Upgrades
https://breakingdefense.com/2019/05/navys-new-tomahawk-plan-targets-ships-bunkers-and-distance/?_ga=2.258303496.308485905.1557684295-1674655644.1523813634

The USN SSBN fleet can be reduced to 8 w/o any detrimental effect. With that #, they won't be able to keep 4 of them in their patrol areas at all times, but that isn't absolutely necessary.
The Columbia-class [the USN wants 12 of them] is being designed to replace the UGM-133 Trident II–armed Ohio-class ballistic missile submarines, whose remaining boats will be decommissioned, one per year, beginning in 2027. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia-class_submarine

So it would take till 2033 to decommission 6 of them, out of the current 14. Not big deal if the 1st Colombia SSBN comes out later than planned. Trident SLBMs been upgraded as well.
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=1400&ct=2

The Trident II D5 is the latest generation of the US Navy's submarine-launched fleet ballistic missile. It is a three-stage, solid-propellant, inertial-guided ballistic missile developed by Lockheed Martin. The missile can carry multiple independently targeted reentry bodies for a maximum range of over 7,360km. https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24939/Curtiss_Wright_To_Supply_Cartridges_For_US_Navy___s_Trident_Ballistic_Missile_Submarine_Program#.XQ3Ec-hKiyI
https://www.military.com/equipment/ssgn-ohio-class-guided-missile-submarine

The 4 Ohio SSGNs can fire 154 tomahawk LACMs each; they could be modified for Maritime Strike Tomahawk (MST) as well. The USAF B-1Bs also can carry LR AShMs & may be transferred to the USN in a few years.
The B-1B’s newest and most interesting weapon is the AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile, or JASSM, and the JASSM-ER (Extended Range). JASSM is a 2,250-pound cruise missile with a thousand-pound warhead and a two-hundred-mile range. JASSM-ER reportedly has double the range [400 miles] of the original version. The two missiles fit eight per weapons bay, for a total of twenty-four cruise missiles per aircraft. Outfitted with JASSM-ER missiles and in concert with B-52 bombers, Virginia-class attack submarines and Ohio-class guided-missile submarines, a force of B-1Bs could contribute to a single, overwhelming mass attack of precision-guided cruise missiles numbering in the many hundreds.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/flying-missile-truck-what-b-1-lancer-can-really-do-58222

Older systems can be modified/upgraded for new roles. Russia does the same with her MiG-31s, Tu-22M/95MS/142s, Oscar SSGNs, SSNs, & surface ships-see their relevant threads!

Isos wrote:

Both programmes are Cold War era designs that were put on the back burner for 20 years. If they can't get over delays at this point they will be obsolete before they get them all into service.

Still better than relying on even older akulas, deltas and oscars.

Husky is already started. It's gonna be the low price SSN they need. Boreis will operate under the north pole where even deltas can't be found no need better and it is pretty cheap. Yasen brings a fire power of 40 supersonic AShM and LACM for the size of an akula.

In comparison to 2BN$ Virginias and similar price Astutes, Husky will be cheap indeed.