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    Project 885: Yasen class

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    kumbor

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  kumbor on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:38 am

    hoom wrote:Kazan returned from its first outing

    Outing... what does it mean outing... you mean returned from first sea trials, or what?

    hoom

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:53 am

    Yes, first sea trials.

    Not a proper technical term for a ship but implies a fairly short trip.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  kumbor on Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:17 am

    hoom wrote:Yes, first sea trials.

    Not a proper technical term for a ship but implies a fairly short trip.

    It`s a literal translation of "выход в море".
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:32 am

    It would be nice if some Russian explained the difference between all three trial types - shtartovniye, khodoviye and gosispitaniya.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:34 am

    It`s a literal translation of "выход в море".
    I meant Outing isn't a proper technical term, I was being informal, didn't mean to cause confusion.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  kumbor on Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:26 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:It would be nice if some Russian explained the difference between all three trial types - shtartovniye, khodoviye and gosispitaniya.

    Швартовые - shwartowye - trials within the port, at the end of fitting out. Mooring equipment is being tested, main and auxiliary propulsion tested on idle, without powering the shafts for drive. the ship is being trimmed, ballasted and tested by the list - кренование.

    Ходовые - Khodovye - real sea trials. All main and auxiliary machinery tested on fuel consumption, power and speed. Ship`s maritime capabilities are being tested. Navigational equipment and electronics also. The deficiencies are being corrected in shipyard.

    Государственные - приёмные испытания - State trials before commissioning. All machinery tested again, navigational and electronic equipment. All armament testing. The ship sails back to shipyard for zero refit and correcting all defficiencies. When the final round of trials is completed, ship enters service, combat flag is risen.

    Maybe I`ve made some mistakes, but all in all this is the procedure.

    Please make corrections where needed. I think there are too many children on this forum, without real experience. I have knowledge from yugoslav navy, now disbanded, so procedure may differ.

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    Isos

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Isos on Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:45 pm

    Gorshkov seems to have had more tests than that.

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  kumbor on Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:41 pm

    Isos wrote:Gorshkov seems to have had more tests than that.

    Every stage of trials has multiple phases. If ship fails to reach asked standards, she returns to builders for refit and corrections. Than the trials are run again. In case of Gorshkov delays may last for a few years as we can see. Lead ships of a class, or prototypes, usually take longer to build and to finish trials, as they are newly projected from scratch and mount new equipment and/or armament.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:23 am

    kumbor wrote:
    Isos wrote:Gorshkov seems to have had more tests than that.

    Every stage of trials has multiple phases. If ship fails to reach asked standards, she returns to builders for refit and corrections. Than the trials are run again. In case of Gorshkov delays may last for a few years as we can see. Lead ships of a class, or prototypes, usually take longer to build and to finish trials, as they are newly projected from scratch and mount new equipment and/or armament.

    nto to mention that the whole documentation and tech specs must be updated.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Isos on Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:37 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    Isos wrote:I wonder why they don't put some torpedo tubes to launch from behind against someone that follows the sub. They have some nice small torpedos that could take little space fir that task. Paket NK would be the best as it could target torpedos too.

    I don't think I've seen many aft torpedo tubes on post-WW2 boats. The reason is that with modern guidance systems torpedo can turn around itself.

    @Verkhoturye, @ Isos, obviously your knowledge doesn`t go further childish interest! None of submarines built after WWII, if they have one shaft, have stern launching TTs, because it substantially affects  hull form, increases noise and drag. making it practically impossible to mount stern tubes in modern one shaft design subs. Last western built SSK with stern tubes is french Daphne (two shaft) and soviet pr.641, NATO - Foxtrot (three shaft) submarine.

    So, it has little to do with torpedo guidance, but it has a lot to do with principles of modern submarine engineering.

    Yo genius !!

    Check that https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1057892268806496256



    What France think should be the future of subs. Look what is on the back... Torpedo launchers !!! So my idea was very good.

    marat

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  marat on Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:54 am

    Isos wrote:
    kumbor wrote:
    @Verkhoturye, @ Isos, obviously your knowledge doesn`t go further childish interest! None of submarines built after WWII, if they have one shaft, have stern launching TTs, because it substantially affects  hull form, increases noise and drag. making it practically impossible to mount stern tubes in modern one shaft design subs. Last western built SSK with stern tubes is french Daphne (two shaft) and soviet pr.641, NATO - Foxtrot (three shaft) submarine.

    So, it has little to do with torpedo guidance, but it has a lot to do with principles of modern submarine engineering.

    Yo genius !!

    Check that https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1057892268806496256



    What France think should be the future of subs. Look what is on the back... Torpedo launchers !!! So my idea was very good.



    When that submarine from your picture WAS built? Or that is just one of hundreds concept picture?

    Just asking as Kumbor was quite clear that> "None of submarines built after WWII, if they have one shaft...."

    slasher

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  slasher on Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:08 am

    Not a very flattering assessment at all of the Project 885M.

    https://vpk-news.ru/articles/45818

    The author basically thinks the technology and combat systems incorporated are still largely untested and immature, even inadequate in comparison to contemporary 5th generation systems. He contends that way too much funding for the navy is being eaten up by a submarine project like this, and instead proper completion of R&D and testing should be carried out, thus slowing production and freeing up resources for surface ships and the naval aviation.

    Certainly pours some cold water over the hype sometimes surrounding this particular sub. IMO critical analysis is never a bad thing, and differing perspectives should not be discounted outright without examination. The issue holds particular relevance given the Navy's own 2017 revision of the "Foundations of the Russian Federation Naval Policy Until 2030", which prioritizes the development of undersea forces centered around the deployment of 955's and 885's.

    https://www.cna.org/CNA_files/PDF/IOP-2018-U-018268-Final.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2qPqYW2SJytdWyv6HFCOtXnoKWJC1zFdMs_vcAJWZAuijYP_o3BpxuZ4k

    Arrow

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Arrow on Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:27 am

    Yasen-М has a higher noise level than Virgini, Seawolf, Astute. Still use standard screw. Modern nuclear submarine use pump jet propulsion which is more efficient and quieter. Very expensive design and it has old technologies like standard screws and is not equal in terms of stealth to western submarine.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Hole on Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:39 am

    You have some proof for your claims? Personal recordings of the sound levels?

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Arrow on Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:47 am

    Simply Pump jet is quieter than a traditional screw. Therefore, everyone except Russians apply this to their SSN.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:25 am

    slasher wrote:Not a very flattering assessment at all of the Project 885M.

    and that's assessment for admin of forum komandir k-244. about author of article: Maxim Klimov:

    http://komandir.k-244.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=139&catid=44&Itemid=137


    Mr. "2503", "Maxim", "vpk-news.ru/articles/6766", "Maxim Klimov"! I do not know what your pseudonyms are, but what is the real name. You are probably a very secret developer of underwater weapons that you are afraid to introduce yourself. You are so secret that even correcting me in the device and the combat use of torpedo weapons, speak in hints. It can be seen that you are afraid that the imperialists may kidnap you, introduce a “truth serum” and you will tell those “trifles” without which torpedoes will not be fired. Do not be afraid, even your “Aunt Frosya” knows that before a torpedo shot it is necessary to equalize the pressure in the torpedo tube with the outboard and open the front cover.


    Your snobbery, eloquent language, aplomb, unwillingness to listen to the interlocutor prevents you from being an interesting interlocutor at the Forum. Asking me a question: “Where does the aerodynamic lift force in the atmosphere go when firing ballistic missiles?” And sending me to teach “a simple physics textbook,” you thereby demonstrate the elementary stupidity. Do you, in general, imagine what it is about? Can you tell a plane from a ballistic missile? After such statements, there is a doubt in your competence in military matters


    Justt I would not go extreme with one negative (in most of his publications) anonymous guy.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:26 am

    Arrow wrote:Simply Pump jet is quieter than a traditional screw. Therefore, everyone except Russians apply this to their SSN.

    and surely without the reason, you must be a sub designer? Why Russians bother with 2 engines fighters when perfect F-35 can fly with one? (barely tho)




    Hole wrote:You have some proof for your claims? Personal recordings of the sound levels?

    Nope, he doesent. How cam you have any signature of top secret subs? from "The Sun"?

    slasher

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  slasher on Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:51 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:Justt I would not go extreme with one negative (in most of his publications) anonymous guy.

    I really hadn't done any background research on him. I agree of course that's very important, especially in understanding what an author's narrative agenda is about. Other articles I've read from him are critical in nature as well.
    That said, he does appear to be somewhat well researched, and I do expect that with his critical p.o.v. he will have many detractors.

    In examining his assertions, here's an article (for some balance) in response to some of his claims from an alleged former submariner.

    The Failure of Russia’s Submarine Fleet

    All in all, the fact that the Ru Navy has seen it necessary to upgrade to improved versions of both the 955's and 885's shows that they appreciate the need to try to stay ahead on the technological curve. Even now, improvements to these are being worked out in the so-called Husky sub project. That's a good sign showing they accept improvements are needed in order to at least maintain a level of parity with their contemporaries into the foreseeable future.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:45 pm

    slasher wrote:

    All in all, the fact that the Ru Navy has seen it necessary to upgrade to improved versions of both the 955's and 885's shows that they appreciate the need to try to stay ahead on the technological curve. Even now, improvements to these are being worked out in the so-called Husky sub project. That's a good sign showing they accept improvements are needed in order to at least maintain a level of parity with their contemporaries into the foreseeable future.

    Very true.

    As for guy: I dont say his arguments are not relevant. In order improve solutions one always needs constructive critics. But between critics and constructive critics I can see important difference. In Ru Navy perhaps things are not perfect but his constant complains make either RuN is not knowing what to do or he is just too grumpy Suspect Suspect Suspect

    I'd just prefer to be remain prudent abut both saying 885M is perfect or failure. Just is nice if arguments form both sides are balanced. Truth is usually somewhere ein between ;-)
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:37 pm

    slasher wrote:Not a very flattering assessment at all of the Project 885M.

    https://vpk-news.ru/articles/45818

    .........................................
    https://www.cna.org/CNA_files/PDF/IOP-2018-U-018268-Final.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2qPqYW2SJytdWyv6HFCOtXnoKWJC1zFdMs_vcAJWZAuijYP_o3BpxuZ4k


    This is that same BS article I posted a while back in my infinite curiosity and whole thing has been proven to be load of crap.


    This suggestion you refereed to is peak stupidity in itself:

    slasher wrote:........ He contends that way too much funding for the navy is being eaten up by a submarine project like this, and instead proper completion of R&D and testing should be carried out, thus slowing production and freeing up resources for surface ships and the naval aviation....


    So idea is to defund only component of Russian Navy that even remotely works in favor of decrepit, hopelessly obsolete and outclassed surface fleet and barely existing carrier aviation that could never be able to counter even a single 2nd tier western Navy let alone something like USN?

    I will say what I said before: if submarine fleet is not good enough then any investments in any kind of navy, surface one especially are nothing more than criminal negligence and treason.

    Operating surface navy under conditions described in that article is tantamount to mass murder of Russian naval personnel.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:54 pm

    Arrow wrote:Simply Pump jet is quieter than a traditional screw. Therefore, everyone except Russians apply this to their SSN.

    Pump jet works only in a narrow range of depth.

    It increase the pressure of the water , and due to that it decreased the aviation.

    Problem is as the sub dive deeper the pressure increase, so the sub could be capable to go faster, but above the optimal design speed the pump jet assy is decrease the maximum speed, and (potentially ) even can increase the noise as well.

    And it means at the same time the maximum speed of a boat due to pumpjet is decreased.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:08 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    slasher wrote:........ He contends that way too much funding for the navy is being eaten up by a submarine project like this, and instead proper completion of R&D and testing should be carried out, thus slowing production and freeing up resources for surface ships and the naval aviation....


    So idea is to defund only component of Russian Navy that even remotely works in favor of decrepit, hopelessly obsolete and outclassed surface fleet and barely existing carrier aviation that could never be able to counter even a single 2nd tier western Navy let alone something like USN?

    I will say what I said before: if submarine fleet is not good enough then any investments in any kind of navy, surface one especially are nothing more than criminal negligence and treason.

    Operating surface navy under conditions described in that article is tantamount to mass murder of Russian naval personnel.



    1) But naval aviation is nicely funded  already  lol1  lol1  lol1
    MiG-31k and Tu-22M3M + naval bases defense Su-30SM + recently VSTOL

    2) It is always good to listen to counterarguments with careful approach towards  "exotic ones" is a bit like Vann7 vs. Putin or eehnie vs size and colors

    3) Im interested what strategy he sees (within given budget ) to invest in navy?

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  kumbor on Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:38 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Simply Pump jet is quieter than a traditional screw. Therefore, everyone except Russians apply this to their SSN.

    Pump jet works only in a narrow range of depth.

    It increase the pressure of the water , and due to that it decreased the aviation.

    Problem is as the sub dive deeper the pressure increase, so the sub could be capable to go faster, but above the optimal design speed the pump jet assy is decrease the maximum speed, and (potentially ) even can increase the noise as well.

    And it means at the same time the maximum speed of a boat due to pumpjet is decreased.

    And also, pump jet is less efficient when sailing at slow speed.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:13 am

    Arrow wrote:Simply Pump jet is quieter than a traditional screw. Therefore, everyone except Russians apply this to their SSN.

    What simplistic empty-headed tosh...

    Its not a black and white engineering issue. Pump jets may be quieter at mid-high speeds (they are actually less efficient at low speeds), but they reduce the effective available power at high reactor settings. Russian philosophy seems to be that stealth is only useful until the first torpedo is fired. On contact with enemy SSN, the Ruskies probably consider stealth to be no longer useful and that raw kinetic performance, powerful active sonar, and effective counter-measures are the key to victory & survival. Once in combat, SSNs are not going to trade torpedo salvoes at low speed while trying to run silent. Active sonars will be switched on to maximise situational awareness of the enemy, and if it lights up your own boat like an underwater Motorhead concert, well so be it as long as it paints the bogey so he can't continue to hide. I think a pump jet is a disadvantage in this scenario for an SSN engaged in a high-energy knife fight.

    SSBNs are a different case as they need to maximise stealth to avoid detection over their full cruising speed ranges. The need to operate at high speed is limited to specific scenarios like attempting to flee from a hostile enemy SSN (rather than attempting to fight), but this is less important than stealth maximisation to optimize the chance of no-detection in the first place.

    The use of pump jets by USN/UK/French SSNs, and the lack of such on Yasens, is most likely to be a doctrinal issue, not technological.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:51 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:  Active sonars will be switched on to maximise situational awareness of the enemy, and if it lights up your own boat like an underwater Motorhead concert,


    you are form down under? then AC/DC would sound better




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