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    Project 885: Yasen class

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:52 am

    Territorial Waters = 12nm = 22.2km & the channel is only about 33km wide at the narrowest point.

    There are exceptions however.... I remember a US ship entered Soviet waters off the coast of the Crimea... something about sailing a straight line from one place to another being legal even through territorial waters... the Russian ship ended up ramming the American ship...

    Here we are:

    In February 1988, Caron operating with Yorktown, entered Soviet 7 miles ) territorial waters limit in the Black Sea off the Crimean Peninsula. Under international law, this act could be permissible if the ship was progressing from one point in international waters to another point in international waters...

    and just for fun the video that went with it...


    hoom

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  hoom on Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:01 am

    Yes the Russian Kilos (and other ships) heading to the Med/Black Sea via the English Channel have been entering UK territorial waters entirely legally, thats the point.

    Technically the propaganda is correct in that they are entering UK territorial waters but what makes it silly propaganda is that its truly innocent passage because thats the shortest route, one of the busiest commercial transits in the world (unlike cutting across territorial waters around Crimea) & that the Kilos have all travelled openly, slowly on the surface with escort & doing passing honours with commercial traffic over radio.

    BTW there was a 2nd similar incident around Crimea where the rammer was a Krivak.

    Labrador

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Labrador on Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:22 pm

    Luq man wrote:K-560 Severodvinsk in drydock:
    Edit:
    one more

    On the last pic new Kazan/885M during first sea trials less long not sure for but normaly the 1st/885 do 119 m this one about 110

    Very powerful SSGN with a new sonar, 62 weapons very silencious but a little less than Seawolf and Virginia
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Isos on Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:33 pm

    hoom wrote:Yes the Russian Kilos (and other ships) heading to the Med/Black Sea via the English Channel have been entering UK territorial waters entirely legally, thats the point.

    Technically the propaganda is correct in that they are entering UK territorial waters but what makes it silly propaganda is that its truly innocent passage because thats the shortest route, one of the busiest commercial transits in the world (unlike cutting across territorial waters around Crimea) & that the Kilos have all travelled openly, slowly on the surface with escort & doing passing honours with commercial traffic over radio.

    BTW there was a 2nd similar incident around Crimea where the rammer was a Krivak.

    When british ships go in strait of Hormuz they also go in Iranian teritorial waters.

    The thing is straits are free routes. British can't close it to russian navy.

    If this bullshit propagandaworks on their stupid people it only means no one in britain knows what are international laws.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Hole on Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:54 pm

    Labrador wrote:
    Luq man wrote:K-560 Severodvinsk in drydock:
    Edit:
    one more

    On the last pic new Kazan/885M during first sea trials less long not sure for but normaly the 1st/885 do 119 m this one about 110

    Very powerful SSGN with a new sonar, 62 weapons very silencious but a little less than Seawolf and Virginia

    Who said it is louder then a Virginia?

    Labrador

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Labrador on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:25 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Who said it is louder then a Virginia?

    I can't post links again 5 days but i have see and with the rest it is logic coz mainly he don't have a pump jet which is an advanatge for radiated noise he must be between 688i/Akula III 636M also 105 Dbs and Seawolf/Virginia 95
    since always Russians/Soviets classes are less good for noise same for sonars US SSNs have in general the best.

    And the Type 212 is excellent with a permanent magnet motor South Dakota 790 a Virginia in service for few monts have it planned for Columbia, Dreadnought SSBNs after UK work very closely with USA
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:58 pm

    Hole wrote:Who said it is louder then a Virginia?

    Noise doesn't matter anymore anyway. You can't hear modern US/Russian nuclear submarine outside of 1 mile radius, as the noise levels got down to 90 - 95 dB.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:20 pm

    Labrador wrote:
    Hole wrote:
    Who said it is louder then a Virginia?

    I can't post links again 5 days but i have see and with the rest it is logic coz mainly he don't have a pump jet which is an advanatge for radiated noise he must be between 688i/Akula III 636M also 105 Dbs and Seawolf/Virginia 95 since always Russians/Soviets classes are less good for noise same for sonars US SSNs have in general the best.

    How do you know real signatures of Russian subs? from US marketing analysts?  Suspect  Suspect  Suspect  

    This was loud statement  but not noisy lol1  lol1  lol1  

    A Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine armed with long-range cruise missiles operated undetected in the Gulf of Mexico for several weeks and its travel in strategic U.S. waters was only confirmed after it left the region, the Washington Free Beacon has learned.

    It is only the second time since 2009 that a Russian attack submarine has patrolled so close to U.S. shores.
    https://freebeacon.com/national-security/silent-running/





    And the Type 212 is excellent with a permanent magnet motor South Dakota 790 a Virginia in service for few monts have it planned for Columbia, Dreadnought SSBNs after UK work very closely with USA

    Im happy to gear that but how it is related  to current topic about Russian subs? dunno  dunno  dunno  

    from 2015
    This is because the SSK, which is quieter than its nuclear-powered counterpart, is seemingly often able to slip detection by the carrier’s escorts. There have been numerous instances of American carrier groups being surprised by SSKs, friendly or otherwise, during either training exercises or regular deployments. The most famous is arguably the 2006 incident of a Song surfacing at a distance within firing range of the Kitty Hawk battle group. Critics point out that if a relatively inferior sub like the Song was able to penetrate the carrier’s screen, a more capable one such as the Kilo would find the endeavor easier. And in a similar case in October this year, a Chinese boat reportedly “stalked” the Reagan carrier strike group (CSG)

    https://thediplomat.com/2015/12/the-chinese-submarine-threat/
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Hole on Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:31 pm

    Also Amiland got the best sonars. Who would know that?
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    George1

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  George1 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:51 am






    hoom

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:56 am

    Also Amiland got the best sonars. Who would know that?
    Brits say its the Astutes with conformal array & I think the flank arrays are bigger than Virginias.

    I think it'll be interesting to see whether Russia continues with the US style spherical array on future Yasens/Husky.
    I guess it'd be too big a change for later Yasens but if the Lada conformal array is actually working properly now (saw some interesting rumors of practical demonstration) I'd expect to see that tech on Husky since its got better possibilities than spherical style.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Hole on Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:48 pm

    Mr. Sutton again.




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    Isos

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Isos on Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:27 pm

    Do we have confirmation about the VLS used ? 3 oniks or 4 kalibr means it's not UKSK tubes. If they use the same on oscar upgrade it means it could carry not only 72 oniks  but 96 kalibr instead.

    Where did the flank sonar go on the yassen-M ? Not usefull anymore ?
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:06 pm

    Actual acknowledgement of use of non-acoustic sensor on modern Russian submarine?! Nice. Hopefully they're using the same old five sensors as in Soviet days - electricity, magnetism, temperature, radioactivity and turbulences.

    It would be also interesteing to know how far did the Americans get with copying this technology.

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    Hole

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Hole on Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:29 pm

    Isos wrote:Do we have confirmation about the VLS used ? 3 oniks or 4 kalibr means it's not UKSK tubes. If they use the same on oscar upgrade it means it could carry not only 72 oniks  but 96 kalibr instead.

    Where did the flank sonar go on the yassen-M ? Not usefull anymore ?

    I doubt this VLS arrangement. Onyx and Kalibr are the same size (more or less).

    The forward flank sonar was deleted because of the length reduction, according to Mr. Sutton.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:08 am

    Isos wrote:Do we have confirmation about the VLS used ? 3 oniks or 4 kalibr means it's not UKSK tubes. If they use the same on oscar upgrade it means it could carry not only 72 oniks  but 96 kalibr instead.

    Source:
    https://iz.ru/news/673281
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-398.html


    No, There will be no UKSK. Oscars keep P-700 Granits' launch tubes with new missiles inserted in so called not UKSK but USP (УСП - universal lauch cell) . I.e. new missiles have to fit inside. All they said is up to 72 missiles and that both types can be used. But nothing that in same quantities. Also mind the weight

    How can you fit since diameter of P-700 launch tube is 1,350m? 4 Kalibrs eventually you can but since Onix has to be also launched thus 3 per one P-700 seem to be possible only.


    BTW in this case we got



    R = 2.153r thus Onix should have 0,63m not 0,67m... I dunno what is missing here. Perhaps 2 onix then?



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    Isos

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Isos on Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:56 am

    I doubt this VLS arrangement. Onyx and Kalibr are the same size (more or less).

    Nope. Kalibr are 533mm in diameter while oniks is 700mm. Someone should look if it possible mathematicaly.


    How can you fit since diameter of P-700 launch tube is 1,350m? 4 Kalibrs eventually you can but since Onix has to be also launched thus 3 per one P-700 seem to be possible only.

    The pictures of the VLS by hole for Yassen has 3 oniks per launch tubes or 4 kalibr. Granits are meant to be replaced by a launcher with 3 oniks each officially. So we can assume that there is also place for 4 kalibrs too.

    I don't if you saw it, you can zoom on the last picture and see the configuration of the missiles inside the launch tubes for yassen on Hole's picture.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:59 am

    It is not rocket science people... the Oscars were fitted with Granit launch tubes, and so to upgrade them on the cheap without removing them and installing new launchers they are putting launch tubes inside the granit launch tubes.

    With the Yasen they already had UKSK launchers... and that is what is fitted.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:39 pm

    Isos wrote:
    I doubt this VLS arrangement. Onyx and Kalibr are the same size (more or less).

    Nope. Kalibr are 533mm in diameter while oniks is 700mm. Someone should look if it possible mathematicaly.

    I did ti last time but now check formula to calculate it this time (same result):
    https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/666491/three-circles-within-a-larger-circle


    (-3 + 2 √3)R = r

    R - radius Granit launch tube (1350mm/2 = 675mm
    r - radius  of inner circle of new missile launch tube (not missile)

    r = 313mm -> d ~ 630mm . Diameter of Onyx = 670mm

    There is no way if fits 3 inside Granit standard launch tube. Theoretically it can fit 2  (2x670 =  1340 vs Granit 1350) but  again unlikely 10mm is enough space to fill launch tube.
    3 Kalibrs with no problemos.  Their diameter is 533mm. BTW there is supersonic Kalibr too. With final speed 2,9Ma which is higher then Onyx one (2,6Ma)






    How can you fit since diameter of P-700 launch tube is 1,350m? 4 Kalibrs eventually you can but since Onix has to be also launched thus 3 per one P-700 seem to be possible only.

    The pictures of the VLS by hole for Yassen has 3 oniks per launch tubes or 4 kalibr. Granits are meant to be replaced by a launcher with 3 oniks each officially. So we can assume that there is also place for 4 kalibrs too.

    I don't if you saw it, you can zoom on the last picture and see the configuration of the missiles inside the launch tubes for yassen on Hole's picture.[/quote]

    No launch tubes on Yasen are different then on Anteys. Anteys use Granit P700 launch tubes. This was BTW stated in Izvestia link I've provided. There is no information about 4 Kalibrs nor 3 Onyxes. The only is statement:
    The technology of such a replacement is quite simple. Three new USPs are inserted into the Granit missile launchers available on the submarine. This will not only increase the ship’s ammunition, but also make it possible to use two types of missiles simultaneously. The total ammunition upgraded "Antea" will increase from 24 to 72 missiles..
    The we got
    1) either no Onyxes will be fitter there and info in article was wrong
    2) or  Grant launch tubes were "drilled out"  to 3 Onyx can fit.


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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:It is not rocket science people...

    in this case actually is  lol1  lol1  lol1



    With the Yasen they already had UKSK launchers... and that is what is fitted.

    no they dont. Those can fit in each tube either 3 or 4 missiles. UKSK can fit either 1 Kalibr or Onyx in one cell.

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Labrador on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:25 pm




    Labrador

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Labrador on Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:44 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    I doubt this VLS arrangement. Onyx and Kalibr are the same size (more or less).

    Nope. Kalibr are 533mm in diameter while oniks is 700mm. Someone should look if it possible mathematicaly.

    I did ti last time but now check formula to calculate it this time (same result):
    https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/666491/three-circles-within-a-larger-circle




    R - radius Granit launch tube (1350mm/2 = 675mm
    r - radius  of inner circle of new missile launch tube (not missile)

    r = 313mm -> d ~ 630mm . Diameter of Onyx = 670mm

    There is no way if fits 3 inside Granit standard launch tube. Theoretically it can fit 2  (2x670 =  1340 vs Granit 1350) but  again unlikely 10mm is enough space to fill launch tube.
    3 Kalibrs with no problemos.  Their diameter is 533mm. BTW there is supersonic Kalibr too. With final speed 2,9Ma which is higher then Onyx one (2,6Ma)

    Interesting,
    I see also Onyx to 70 cm i think your radius more accurate but can't to be fired from even a 650 mm launch tube Yasen don't have 10 x 533 mm noramly same for 885M

    Comparison  Cool 885 do 119 - 120 m and seems 885M do 109 -110 m long, how possible 10 m less long ?


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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:00 am

    Labrador wrote:Interesting,
    I see also Onyx to 70 cm i think your radius more accurate but can't to be fired from even a 650 mm launch tube

    nope Onyx wont fit into any torpedo tubes (ok for Poseidon ones it fits lol1 lol1 lol1

    Comparison  Cool 885 do 119 - 120 m and seems 885M do 109 -110 m long, how possible 10 m less long ?

    technology advanced in 25 years between design of both ships?

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Labrador on Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:33 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Labrador wrote:Interesting,
    I see also Onyx to 70 cm i think your radius more accurate but can't to be fired from even a 650 mm launch tube

    nope Onyx wont fit into any torpedo tubes (ok for Poseidon ones it fits  lol1  lol1  lol1

    Comparison  Cool 885 do 119 - 120 m and seems 885M do 109 -110 m long, how possible 10 m less long ?

    technology advanced in 25 years between design of both ships?

    Possible but do about 10 % a difference build for to be the successor of the Oscar II and Akula a SSGN/SSN to combine the designs for hunter-killer
    submarines with those for cruise missile submarines

    The guy do very nice graphics but possible 885M have only 8 TL

    VLS, launcher SM-346 (SM-343 in terms of sources) - installation vertical launch universal shipboard firing system (UKSK) 3P-14B - 2 rows by 4 modules launcher

    Normaly 4 Onyx max or 5 Klub/Kaliber i have see a better pic of the launcher
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-339.html

    Normaly Kazan for Northern Fleet after 2 others and 3 for Pacific in more the 885 Severodvinsk for NF to Zaozersk/Zapadnaya Litsa, 11th Subm Div with three 949 and a 671 active
    powerful SSGN but for Russians expensive

    And  Cool

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:34 am

    This infographic doesn't show any 650mm torp tubes?

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