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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

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    Rmf
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:32 am

    well the guy quoted me and said another carrier is a dream. i said kuznetsov type medium-heavy carrier was possible and without large new investments and they have experience and ability.
    better that then supercariers anyway. on basis of time and costs and availability. and i dont think russia should go for supercarriers anyway 60-70.000 tonns is enough.
    kuznetsov redesign without granits, bit wider deck, smaller island, and no boilers but nuclear power unit form icebreakers (saving time and some money there), it would have more room for aircraft.
    it could have 60-70 aircraft  and be quite usefull. so you prove me right actually.


    Last edited by Rmf on Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:36 am

    Admiralty Shipyard building ways can accommodate ships up to 70,000 tons and 250M in length at current stage.  So it could be used to build smaller carriers. If need be, the initial investment of new cranes could be needed and that would benefit greatly.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:42 am

    lets just mention 70.000 tonns in not small at all- its medium to heavy. kuznetsov is about 61.000 tonns. chinese lianoning i mentioned in first post as a possiblity for russian shipyards is 67.000 tonns.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:59 am

    Rmf wrote:lets just mention 70.000 tonns in not small at all- its medium to heavy. kuznetsov is about 61.000 tonns. chinese lianoning i mentioned in first post as a possiblity for russian shipyards is 67.000 tonns.

    From the official website:
    http://admship.ru/?page_id=60&lang=en

    PRODUCTION CAPACITIES

    Today JSC “Admiralteiskie Verfi” is a modern high-tech diversified enterprise equipped with the machine and engineering equipment provided by leading global manufacturers. The production capacities including two open slipways, five covered berths and two floating docks enable to construct state-of-the-art ships up to 70 000 DWT.

    In the Ru Navy thread, I posted a video about STAR (Zvezda Shipyard) construction and also link to photos from last year. Apparently Korea backed out of the project due to major decrease in sales for ships in their own Hyundai shipyard. But what is funny is how Rosneft is already signing deals for ships at the shipyard: http://www.setcorp.ru/main/pressrelease.phtml?language=english&news_id=59898&pr=all&mime=text/html&charset=windows-1251

    And apparent deals worth up to $36B: http://tass.ru/en/economy/819520

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:20 pm

    I am sure Sevmash is capable of upgrading the Kuznetsov into a more capable vessel.
    Building a new fixed-wing carrier is another issue.
    I am certain Sevmash is not capable of doing it "quickly and efficiently".

    Building a ship is building a ship... in fact planning and implementing a total rebuild of an existing vessel into another form like the did for India with the gorshkov is rather harder than simply building from scratch a new vessel.

    BTW China has no experience with actually building their own design aircraft carrier either...


    Still not enough if you have to modernize a large ground force, a large air force, a large navy and a nuclear triad as well.

    Ummm... do you think they plucked that number from the sky as a guess... or do you think they did a lot of planning and actually worked out that that was the amount of money they needed to do the job they intended to do... if it is the latter than I would think it would be enough because that is what they plan to do.

    Look how much the British military struggled to get enough funds for their new carrier despite their central role in the Royal Navy.

    Russia doesn't need to send forces to Afghanistan for long expensive stays, and Iraq and other places the US drags them to...

    And the British do not have to fund a large ground force and nuclear triad.

    But they do have one pig fucker of a leader... Twisted Evil

    If Spain, and France and the UK and Thailand and South Korea and Australia can afford light carriers then Russia could certainly afford a couple.

    Or are you suggesting if the UK can't afford it then Russia can't... because the UK can't afford strategic bombers yet Russia seems to have quite a few... not to mention truck based ICBMs...

    You can insult me now as much as you like or whatever you like (since some already did regarding this same subject), but supercarrier is faaar from possible in Russia at this moment simply coz of technical reasons, put money aside, they would find money if they really cared to build carrier. Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay. Simple fact is that biggest USSR shipyards ended up being out of todays Russia, where all of the biggest ships were built and Russia is left with 300x30m building docks. China, South Korea, US, Japan, France have drydocks that basically outsize Russian outfitting/repair quays.

    Why do you think the Russian navy bothers with Kuznetsov?

    Why hire facilities in the Ukraine for carrier training?

    Why bother with Mistral carriers?

    WTF are you talking about super carriers for?

    Zvezda is being planned for use in building super tankers and other very large cargo ship production.

    Work on the yard, intended to build ships up to 360m and 250,000dwt

    source: http://www.motorship.com/news101/industry-news/russian-energy-majors-could-take-over-shipyard-project

    note... 360m long is very long, and 250,000dwt is fucking enormous... for those not familiar with dwt... that is dead weight tonnage and is a measure of how much a ship can safely carry, so we are not talking about 250 thousand ton ships we are talking about ships that can carry 250 thousand ton payloads...

    If even only one of the other 3 Kievs would still be around and not scrapped or sadly ending their days as amusement parks in China...

    I am glad they are gone... being able to design and build a new vessel from a blank sheet of paper means they will end up with a much better vessel than if they had to base it on another design.

    They are planning naval versions of the PAK FA... would it be worth it for one carrier?


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    sepheronx
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:17 pm

    Great post Gary.

    Let me add that the procurement plan of Russia is indeed planned out and spread to various areas (air, land and sea). And SAP2020 isnt first nor last sap. After this one, there will be another procurement plan. Even if less in terms of money, will be easily enough as by 2020, 70% of Russias forces will be modernized. There may be more focus on Navy afterwards. This one is more focused on airforce it seems. Ground forces is more or less inbetween.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:Building a ship is building a ship... in fact planning and implementing a total rebuild of an existing vessel into another form like the did for India with the gorshkov is rather harder than simply building from scratch a new vessel.

    And? Sevmash's work shows that they could not do it without severe delays and cost overruns.

    GarryB wrote:BTW China has no experience with actually building their own design aircraft carrier either...

    The PRC has more money to burn and shipyards which did not experience decay in the last decades.

    GarryB wrote:Ummm... do you think they plucked that number from the sky as a guess... or do you think they did a lot of planning and actually worked out that that was the amount of money they needed to do the job they intended to do... if it is the latter than I would think it would be enough because that is what they plan to do.

    I think that you should stop beating around the bush.

    GarryB wrote:Russia doesn't need to send forces to Afghanistan for long expensive stays, and Iraq and other places the US drags them to...

    Russia has had other commitments in countries like Georgia and Tadjikistan in the last decades.

    GarryB wrote:If Spain, and France and the UK and Thailand and South Korea and Australia can afford light carriers then Russia could certainly afford a couple.

    Or are you suggesting if the UK can't afford it then Russia can't... because the UK can't afford strategic bombers yet Russia seems to have quite a few... not to mention truck based ICBMs...

    Mate, we are not talking about light carriers (<30,00 tonnes displacement).

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:35 pm

    Then admirality shipyard would be the one to do it since they have the capacity to do upwards to 70,000DWT. Maybe it would take them long and expensive for first inital build for shipyard upgrades and training, but once done, its done. Rather buy it locally produced and expensive rather than paying someone else.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:33 pm

    Firebird wrote:How realistic would a "stopgap" 2nd Kuznetsov be, does anyone know?
    Main factor to consider is if Russia wants one and is ready to fall back upon a proven/completely designed carrier. In short 1143.5 Kuznetsov or 1143.7 Ulyanovsk, both of them were completed designs and that is the factor to consider. Design and documentation is a major part and without getting it completed you simply cannot built a ship.

    Could an updated clone of the Kuznetsov be done quickly and efficiently?
    Yes it can be and Sevmash was confident of building a new carrier in a much compressed time frame. Moreover the entire suppliers and supply chain was re-established while undertaking Project 11430 for Indian Navy.

    INS Vikramaditya (VKD) was completed in 8 years (with irregular and halted funding) and mind that it was double the work of a normal carrier as it started off with first gutting the carrier and then rebuilding it. A new carrier of that size or Kuznetsov (with original documentation/completed updated documentation = design process is complete) size when started from fresh piece of metal will take no more than 5years with proper funding (& manpower) with additional time for trials and acceptance.  

    This would mean economies of scale if it shared parts with the Kuznetsov, and mean that Russia isnt without a crucial AC carrier, when one is being refitted.
    Major and critical parts that I think needs to be shared for logistical, spares and economical reasons are (though not necessary either),
    Propulsion system
    1) Steam turbines (no need for change even if N-propulsion is opted instead of the KVG-3D boilers)
    2) Gear assembly (no need for change)
    3) Propellers & shafts (no need for change)
    The above three are replaced or requirement for a new during a carriers lifetime arise only if there is a complete failure of the system or if your propeller falls off like we saw on Charles De Gaulle. VKD retained its original propulsion system, except for the new diesel boilers, all others system were refurbished/serviced and the carrier moved out on its own power after nearly 12-13 years. Even during the intense sea trials, only the new boilers gave up which was due to the new eco-friendly firebrick liners which were being used for the first time instead of asbestos.  

    This was the kind of deep service/overhauling I wanted to see on Kuznetsov while under 'repairs'.

    4) Arrester wire and Chokes.
    5) Elevators, numerous motors and pumps.

    All said, it depends on whether Russia is ready to take a calculated risk with funding and move ahead for another of 11437 class.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:46 pm

    Militarov wrote:Not very likely imo. Best i could imagine is Kuznetsov getting its boilers replaced with reactor since its known for having propulsion issues,
    Putting a reactor inside the Kuznetsov will be much more time consuming as it might require getting back to design. Much better and simpler option if the requirement is "urgent" is to upgrade its propulsion with the new KVG-3D boilers replacing its older KVG-3 units and a good overhaul of its propulsion system.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:09 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

    None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.
    Sevmash have done a good job with converting 1143.4 to INS Vikramaditya and that is a solid experience under the belt of Europe's largest shipyard.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:20 pm

    Dima wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

    None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.
    Sevmash have done a good job with converting 1143.4 to INS Vikramaditya and that is a solid experience under the belt of Europe's largest shipyard.

    Sevmash's work was supposed to be finished in 2008.
    The Vikramaditya was delivered in 2013.
    The conversion was supposed to cost 0,8 billion US-dollar.
    In the end, India had to pay 2,35 billion US-dollar.

    Is that supposed to be good work? Suspect

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:19 pm

    Militarov wrote:Sevmash and Zvezda in terms of pure labor, got no clue how to build carrier, let alone super carrier with catapult,  at least not at this moment.
    Really?
    What do you base you opinion on?

    Adapting already existing hull is one thing, building it from scratch is totally different type of job. Can Russian marine engineers in general do it?
    You are mixing things. Sevmash is a shipyard with a limited/in-house design team not covering the entire spectrum of ship design. There are dedicated design houses in Russia and they design subs and ships. A shipyards main business is to built ships according to the documentation/spec supplied by design house/customer.

    Most likely, but it will take quite alot of time, other issue beside lack of experience in building such platforms is lack of propper equipment, Sevmash is not capable to handle ships of such size and weight, even after investments in Zvezda that everyone here is talking about i have significant amount of doubt regarding it building carrier.
    Set aside Zevzda, its not Sevmash.

    Sevmash can barely handle Kuznetsov since its around its maximum projected weight and size of its docks.
    You are kidding my dear!

    The only obstacle Sevmash is having w.r.t to Kuznetsov or new carrier construction is the entry/flood gates to Sevmash basin!!!
    Get this little but very very important fact right!!!
    Once you understand this little stuff you will understand why Sevmash cannot built an aircraft carrier in its basin.

    By God's grace, Project 11430 was lucky as the aircraft carrying cruiser managed to squeeze through the narrow flootgates of Sevmash yard into the basin with barely 1m clearance on either side. It was equally laborious while exiting but it was navigated/tugged in and out by highly skilled/experienced personals without any incident, not even a slightest scratch on the hull.

    Just for info, Pr.1143.4 Kiev class has a max waterline beam of nearly 32 meters where as Pr.1143.7 Kuznetsov has a max waterline beam of nearly 36 meters. Unless the entry is widened there is no chance for Kuznetsov to enter the basin or a new carrier with similar or wider beam to be constructed inside the yard permises. Crane capacity is secondary here as they can even do with piecing together small sections.

    Sevmash with current cranes cant even lift some of the carrier segments, in Mykolaiv they had 1000t cranes, in Russia biggest ones to my knowledge are 550t, lack of docks, lack of skilled workers, lack of cranes,
    Hope you meant Nikolayev South Shipyard. Do you really think lifting capacity of a 1,000t is the baseline capacity that a shipyard needs? Its good to have such a capability, but its not the end of world. The heaviest block that I have seen those cranes lift are the huge superstructure of Pr.1143.4 Baku/Admiral Gorshkov. The large superstructure that we still see on INS Vikramaditya was installed on the deck as a single pre-fabricated block/module during its construction by those two cranes.

    lack of certain (modern) shipbuilding technologies, they slept for 20 years due to bad financial situation, get real and stop chanting "Russia is building carriers in 2018."
    Do you mean to say that Russia cant start constructing a carrier by 2018?

    but supercarrier is faaar from possible in Russia at this moment simply coz of technical reasons, put money aside, they would find money if they really cared to build carrier.
    The first and fore most reason as always is funds and secondary is the dry dock to buit coz the only experienced yard now with carrier construction doesnt have the required dry dock to facilitate construction.

    Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay.
    Sevmash have plenty of outfitting space.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:24 pm



    Check slipway and cranes in major shipyards, they can manage averagely sized tankers at the best.
    Take the dimensions I earlier posted and check once more and you will see a solution. Its just a bottle neck.

    I will explain.
    1) Widen the entry to Sevmash basin/yard. This will be cheaper than constructing a new 400m x 70m dry dock which was earlier planned.
    2) See the capacity of Sevmash 302 x 44m. Its the covered slipway on which n-subs are constructed. Two lines in parallel with common rail for cranes. Downside being obstruction in N-sub construction.
    3) Utilize this installed capacity to built hull sections which will negate the need for heavy lift cranes in the basin or on floating docks.
    4) Float them out into the basin for final assembly, preferrably on a floating dry dock which can be fabricated in Sevmash itself. Each time basin will need to be flooded.
    5) Float the completed hull out of the basin for outfitting to free up the basin.

    All these will depend on the entry/exit, coz we have not advanced enough to see a flying carrier.  Very Happy

    In my humble opinon, its doable and in Sevmash itself but depends on three things - Plan, Resolve & Funds. Everything else comes into place automatically.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:33 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Dima wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

    None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.
    Sevmash have done a good job with converting 1143.4 to INS Vikramaditya and that is a solid experience under the belt of Europe's largest shipyard.

    Sevmash's work was supposed to be finished in 2008.
    The Vikramaditya was delivered in 2013.
    The conversion was supposed to cost 0,8 billion US-dollar.
    In the end, India had to pay 2,35 billion US-dollar.

    Is that supposed to be good work? Suspect
    Define work.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:52 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Russia has third largest defense budget.

    Not anymore thanks to ruble devaluation.

    Guess what - procurement costs devalued too. Unless you think that Russia stuffs its defence products with foreign parts paid for in Euros and Dollars.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:09 pm

    Dima wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Sevmash and Zvezda in terms of pure labor, got no clue how to build carrier, let alone super carrier with catapult,  at least not at this moment.
    Really?
    What do you base you opinion on?

    On fact that they never built anything even remotely similar? O.o Only handful of shipbuilding companies have experience with such projects, its far bigger bite than you can even imagine.

    Adapting already existing hull is one thing, building it from scratch is totally different type of job. Can Russian marine engineers in general do it?
    You are mixing things. Sevmash is a shipyard with a limited/in-house design team not covering the entire spectrum of ship design. There are dedicated design houses in Russia and they design subs and ships. A shipyards main business is to built ships according to the documentation/spec supplied by design house/customer.

    Well aware of that however you need production engineers with experience on spot to advise and overlook production and assembly, Russia atm got no such engineers to my knowledge, maybe some guys that worked on Uljanovsk class are still around but its quite possible they are old, retired or live in Ukraine. Also carrier is not comparable to any other type of ship at all, its complex beyond anything else that floats around.


    Sevmash can barely handle Kuznetsov since its around its maximum projected weight and size of its docks.
    You are kidding my dear!

    The only obstacle Sevmash is having w.r.t to Kuznetsov or new carrier construction is the entry/flood gates to Sevmash basin!!!
    Get this little but very very important fact right!!!
    Once you understand this little stuff you will understand why Sevmash cannot built an aircraft carrier in its basin.

    By God's grace, Project 11430 was lucky as the aircraft carrying cruiser managed to squeeze through the narrow flootgates of Sevmash yard into the basin with barely 1m clearance on either side. It was equally laborious while exiting but it was navigated/tugged in and out by highly skilled/experienced personals without any incident, not even a slightest scratch on the hull.

    Just for info, Pr.1143.4 Kiev class has a max waterline beam of nearly 32 meters where as Pr.1143.7 Kuznetsov has a max waterline beam of nearly 36 meters. Unless the entry is widened there is no chance for Kuznetsov to enter the basin or a new carrier with similar or wider beam to be constructed inside the yard permises. Crane capacity is secondary here as they can even do with piecing together small sections.

    From what i am aware Kuznetsov has 38m waterline beam.  I have my doubts regarding actual dock max weight limit to be honest beside fact that you cant fit actual carrier in there you do not want to destroy structure of your dock either. Not all docks are made with same production in mind.

    Sevmash with current cranes cant even lift some of the carrier segments, in Mykolaiv they had 1000t cranes, in Russia biggest ones to my knowledge are 550t, lack of docks, lack of skilled workers, lack of cranes
    Hope you meant Nikolayev South Shipyard. Do you really think lifting capacity of a 1,000t is the baseline capacity that a shipyard needs? Its good to have such a capability, but its not the end of world. The heaviest block that I have seen those cranes lift are the huge superstructure of Pr.1143.4 Baku/Admiral Gorshkov. The large superstructure that we still see on INS Vikramaditya was installed on the deck as a single pre-fabricated block/module during its construction by those two cranes.

    To my knowledge Mykolaiv and Nikolaev are same place. 1000t cranes are not mandatory however when you want to build a carrier they are more than great aid, you cant really afford to build everything from tiny segments, if you have serious lifting capability you can do welding on multiple locations and then just merge modules in bigger "chops", its kinda more efficient.

    lack of certain (modern) shipbuilding technologies, they slept for 20 years due to bad financial situation, get real and stop chanting "Russia is building carriers in 2018."
    Do you mean to say that Russia cant start constructing a carrier by 2018?

    Highly unlikely imho.


    Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay.
    Sevmash have plenty of outfitting space.

    Question is does it have adequate outfitting space, i did not build many carriers in my life so i cant judge on that but rest of the facilities are suspicious at least for such achievement.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:23 pm

    Dima wrote:


    Check slipway and cranes in major shipyards, they can manage averagely sized tankers at the best.
    Take the dimensions I earlier posted and check once more and you will see a solution. Its just a bottle neck.

    I will explain.
    1) Widen the entry to Sevmash basin/yard. This will be cheaper than constructing a new 400m x 70m dry dock which was earlier planned.
    2) See the capacity of Sevmash 302 x 44m. Its the covered slipway on which n-subs are constructed. Two lines in parallel with common rail for cranes. Downside being obstruction in N-sub construction.
    3) Utilize this installed capacity to built hull sections which will negate the need for heavy lift cranes in the basin or on floating docks.
    4) Float them out into the basin for final assembly, preferrably on a floating dry dock which can be fabricated in Sevmash itself. Each time basin will need to be flooded.
    5) Float the completed hull out of the basin for outfitting to free up the basin.

    All these will depend on the entry/exit, coz we have not advanced enough to see a flying carrier.  Very Happy

    In my humble opinon, its doable and in Sevmash itself but depends on three things - Plan, Resolve & Funds. Everything else comes into place automatically.

    Widening the entry and basin and quay is fine, however they need new dock, widening existing facilities is just stop gap solution at the best, production rate in Russian shipbuilding (not that i like it being that way) is quite patethic. Constant delays, fires, lacks of steel, lack of domestic tooling, cranes... it has to stop, making new docks and training good labor force is good start.

    I am not sure if its possible to miniaturise carrier sections so much to manage its construction with 550t cranes to be honest. I mean naturally its possible, but is it smart or good? I am not marine engineer but i am not sure if its really good to build carrier like lego.





    USS Ford carrier is modular as it gets with carriers and still i see some HUGE cranes working on it and moving its sections that are probably heavier even than 1000t, i am not saying it couldnt be done by welding smaller compartments on spot but this way its far more convinient.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:43 am

    And? Sevmash's work shows that they could not do it without severe delays and cost overruns.

    So. Why would that make it any different from any other current Russian ship building programme?

    WTF does Sevmash's work history have to do with Zvezda? Do you think Zvezda has the capacity to work on 360m long ships weighing 300K tons by accident?

    It is pretty clear they want to build new carriers at Zvezda.

    The PRC has more money to burn and shipyards which did not experience decay in the last decades.

    I am not saying China can't build carriers, you are saying Russia can't... and I am disagreeing with you.

    I think that you should stop beating around the bush.

    Thinking about this rationally, if they want to operate in international waters they will need an air component... that does not come from magic beans... it comes from aircraft carriers.

    They don't need 13 of them and they wont be 100K ton monstrosities like the US builds.

    they might even be twin or triple hull catamaran types... who can say?

    Russia has had other commitments in countries like Georgia and Tadjikistan in the last decades.

    Nothing that has cost them a fraction of what the UK has paid to travel on Americas coat tails saving the world.

    Mate, we are not talking about light carriers (<30,00 tonnes displacement).

    No we are not... they have already mentioned sizes in the 60K to 80K range.

    In fact with a naval PAK FA on board they could operate as both fighter and strike aircraft in one...

    Then admirality shipyard would be the one to do it since they have the capacity to do upwards to 70,000DWT. Maybe it would take them long and expensive for first inital build for shipyard upgrades and training, but once done, its done. Rather buy it locally produced and expensive rather than paying someone else.

    The first ship of any class of any size will always take longer as new problems present themselves. The fact that the propulsion (ie nuclear reactor) has been in development for some time, and likely new radar and sensors have already likely been development for upgrades to the Kirov class vessels and of course the majority of weapon systems have been standardised that development wont take more than a decade, so we are talking about a first vessel in the mid 2020s to be layed down and ready for testing by 2030. Work will be assisted by upgrades to the Kuznetsov with new modular systems developed for the new vessels... so like fitting new engines to Su-35 that can be adapted later to the PAK FA sort of stuff.

    How realistic would a "stopgap" 2nd Kuznetsov be, does anyone know?

    It would be better to start from scratch... a stop gap would take as long to build and upgrade as the current K would take to upgrade and would not be cheap either... it makes rather more sense to build new because no matter the design it will not be cheap to build and operate. A new design will have a new modular construction that will simplify upgrades over the life of the vessel and the vessels that come after it.

    1) Steam turbines (no need for change even if N-propulsion is opted instead of the KVG-3D boilers)
    2) Gear assembly (no need for change)
    3) Propellers & shafts (no need for change)

    A brand new vessel can get rid of the enormous heavy shafts and use propeller pods... it saves space and weight and allows vastly superior manouver capability and it means you can place the NPP anywhere you want on the ship...

    The need gear assemblies when you have electric drive are greatly simplified.

    Sevmash's work was supposed to be finished in 2008.
    The Vikramaditya was delivered in 2013.
    The conversion was supposed to cost 0,8 billion US-dollar.
    In the end, India had to pay 2,35 billion US-dollar.

    Is that supposed to be good work?

    It was never supposed to cost 0.8 billion... the first number was 1.4 billion and included the air component. The cost increases and delays were largely because of negotiations taking too long and finding rather more internal components, wiring and piping needed replacement. BTW an extra 900 million is peanuts... 22 billion for 126 Rafales in comparison and there is no complaints from Indian fans... cost over run of 12 billion dollars for a brand new item that did not require modification...

    BTW those Indian carriers are also not on budget or on time either...

    Perhaps making carriers isn't so easy?

    Well aware of that however you need production engineers with experience on spot to advise and overlook production and assembly, Russia atm got no such engineers to my knowledge, maybe some guys that worked on Uljanovsk class are still around but its quite possible they are old, retired or live in Ukraine. Also carrier is not comparable to any other type of ship at all, its complex beyond anything else that floats around.

    So how can carriers exist if you can't build any if you have not built any before?

    That is just stupid.

    USS Ford carrier is modular as it gets with carriers and still i see some HUGE cranes working on it and moving its sections that are probably heavier even than 1000t, i am not saying it couldnt be done by welding smaller compartments on spot but this way its far more convinient.

    A bit of reality... the US has plenty of super carriers and other large vessels... russia is not going to build 30 large carriers that require such facilities so there is no value in upgrading Sev for the one or two or three ships it might actually build that would require such a building capacity... that is just DUMB.

    They are upgrading Zvezda with the help of the South Koreans to build large tankers and LNG carriers of very large physical sizes and weights, it makes rather more sense to build the one or two or three carriers they might want there in between commercial products.

    Sure there is an issue with security and putting military systems, but I am sure they can deal with that.

    If you look up a thread I posted a few years ago about the new shipyard it states that they will have the capacity to make large and very large vessels and the capacity to make military vessels too.

    They make spaceships... another large carrier is not that big a deal.

    The new drive for modular construction and modular design should make things rather easier, not harder.

    Just look at their experience with the Sidewinder missile... they found out... when they captured the first examples that the IR seeker was no better than their own, and that the rocket motor was no better than their own... the two critical things they learned was the modular design... the AA-1 by comparison was a complex mish mash of parts and wires and bits and pieces... the sidewinder was totally modular... seeker at the front, guidance system behind then warhead and then front control surface servos, then rocket motor and rear fins... the other thing was the rolleron gyros were tiny compared with their own.

    the design of the sidewinder was so simple they were able to copy it and put it into production faster than they could retrain their engineers designing AAMs to use the modular design principles, but once they got it they took it rather further than the US did... with SARH and IR guided Sidewinders in Soviet service, followed eventually by the ultimate modular missile... the R-27 which included several dozen different seeker heads, two motor options... resulting in an enormous number of combinations...

    We have seen it with Armata... they are trying to move to state of the art in all areas... why would they settle for K2? There is no enormous rush. It is better to get it right than to get it right now and below par.


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    Militarov
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:34 am

    Well aware of that however you need production engineers with experience on spot to advise and overlook production and assembly, Russia atm got no such engineers to my knowledge, maybe some guys that worked on Uljanovsk class are still around but its quite possible they are old, retired or live in Ukraine. Also carrier is not comparable to any other type of ship at all, its complex beyond anything else that floats around.

    So how can carriers exist if you can't build any if you have not built any before?

    That is just stupid.

    No, no we are here talking about that 2018. time tag some people here talk about very often, that is unreal, building carrier without engineers experienced with it is possible it just takes alot more time. Well one way is to already have such engineers, second way is to build first carrier for 10 years so they get experience on the way, solve problems, solve issues, manage production etc, i am just saying experience is what Russian marine engineers lack, they all have great from the book knowledge, Russian education system is quite good. I never said Russian engineers are bad, they just lack experience and knowledge of certain "cutting edge" technologies coz as you know R&D in marine field was quite dead for 15 years, maybe even abit longer.

    In such projects there has to be someone who can say "that is wrong", "that is bad idea", someone who either studied carriers whole his life or someone who actually did participate in building of one.

    USS Ford carrier is modular as it gets with carriers and still i see some HUGE cranes working on it and moving its sections that are probably heavier even than 1000t, i am not saying it couldnt be done by welding smaller compartments on spot but this way its far more convinient.

    A bit of reality... the US has plenty of super carriers and other large vessels... russia is not going to build 30 large carriers that require such facilities so there is no value in upgrading Sev for the one or two or three ships it might actually build that would require such a building capacity... that is just DUMB.

    They are upgrading Zvezda with the help of the South Koreans to build large tankers and LNG carriers of very large physical sizes and weights, it makes rather more sense to build the one or two or three carriers they might want there in between commercial products.

    Sure there is an issue with security and putting military systems, but I am sure they can deal with that.

    If you look up a thread I posted a few years ago about the new shipyard it states that they will have the capacity to make large and very large vessels and the capacity to make military vessels too.

    They make spaceships... another large carrier is not that big a deal.

    The new drive for modular construction and modular design should make things rather easier, not harder.

    Just look at their experience with the Sidewinder missile... they found out... when they captured the first examples that the IR seeker was no better than their own, and that the rocket motor was no better than their own... the two critical things they learned was the modular design... the AA-1 by comparison was a complex mish mash of parts and wires and bits and pieces... the sidewinder was totally modular... seeker at the front, guidance system behind then warhead and then front control surface servos, then rocket motor and rear fins... the other thing was the rolleron gyros were tiny compared with their own.

    the design of the sidewinder was so simple they were able to copy it and put it into production faster than they could retrain their engineers designing AAMs to use the modular design principles, but once they got it they took it rather further than the US did... with SARH and IR guided Sidewinders in Soviet service, followed eventually by the ultimate modular missile... the R-27 which included several dozen different seeker heads, two motor options... resulting in an enormous number of combinations...

    We have seen it with Armata... they are trying to move to state of the art in all areas... why would they settle for K2? There is no enormous rush. It is better to get it right than to get it right now and below par.

    Hey updating Sevmash is not stupid idea, in case of shipyards bigger is always better. New big facilities and new technology and workforce can bring foreign orders for big ships, i mean Samsung shipyards are building what... 60 major size ships each year. Imagine if Sevmash was building 30 major size tankers each year for commercial use, thats hell of a money and great way to keep both workers and engineers employed and in shape for any military project. Lets not just look at military side of Russian shipbuilding, if they invest enough Russians can become world leaders in both civilian and military shipbuilding there is no reason not to if they work hard enough.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:22 pm

    wait a second now that you mention it i remembered they built a large ice breaking tanker , with thicker hull plates and reinforced structure ah here it is.
    http://barentsobserver.com/en/node/21009
    70.000 tonns

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:55 pm

    Rmf wrote:wait a second now that you mention it i remembered they built a large ice breaking tanker , with thicker hull plates and reinforced structure ah here it is.
    http://barentsobserver.com/en/node/21009
    70.000 tonns

    Well aware of Sovkomflots fleet. Take note that its DWT 70.000t. Among todays tankers its kinda mid sized, if even. Its basically reinforced tanker so it doesnt always need icebreaker escort, its not really something extremly sophisticated and complicated like carriers are. But none the less its good that they are building such ships they can provide good base for other projects.

    http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/mikhail_ulyanov/

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:10 pm

    well now that it belongs to russia - zaliv shipyard on east crimea built 181.000t  displacement supertankers in 80s largest in soviet union.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalyv_Shipbuilding_yard

    ,and it has big dock
    http://zalivkerch.com/index.php/o-nas/nashi-vozmozhnosti/38-dokovyj-kompleks
    354x60m , with 2x 320t cranes that can work in tandem for 600t combined.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:53 pm

    Rmf wrote:well now that it belongs to russia - zaliv shipyard on east crimea built 181.000t  displacement supertankers in 80s largest in soviet union.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalyv_Shipbuilding_yard

    ,and it has big dock
    http://zalivkerch.com/index.php/o-nas/nashi-vozmozhnosti/38-dokovyj-kompleks
    354x60m , with 2x 320t cranes that can work in tandem for 600t combined.

    Well aware of that shipyard and both Krym and Pobeda types that were built there in 80s and early 90s.

    Krym:

    Max. length: 295,2 m
    Length between perpendicular: 277,1 m
    Breadth: 45 m
    Depth: 25,4 m
    Draugh: 17 m
    Deadweight: 150000 t
    Displacement: 181000 t
    Net hold contents: 202500 m3
    Speed: 17 knots
    Cruising range: 25000 miles
    Autonomy: 80 days
    Crew: 36
    Residential places number: 45
    Steam-turbine engine output: 30000 bhp

    Pobeda:


    Max. length: 242,8 m
    Length between perpendicular: 228 m
    Breadth: 32,2 m
    Depth: 18 m
    Draught at summer draught: 13,62 m
    Deadweight: 68000 t
    Displacement: 84500 t
    Net hold contents: 71100 m3
    Speed: 15 knots
    Cruising range: 16000 miles
    Autonomy: 40 days
    Crew: 36
    Residential places number: 45

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:40 am

    Rmf wrote:well now that it belongs to russia - zaliv shipyard on east crimea built 181.000t  displacement supertankers in 80s largest in soviet union.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalyv_Shipbuilding_yard

    ,and it has big dock
    http://zalivkerch.com/index.php/o-nas/nashi-vozmozhnosti/38-dokovyj-kompleks
    354x60m , with 2x 320t cranes that can work in tandem for 600t combined.
    thumbsup

    The dry dock looks good and would facilitate the construction of 1143.7 class for sure.

    http://zalivkerch.com/images/dock/dock.JPG


    http://zalivkerch.com/images/dock/dock2.jpg


    http://zalivkerch.com/images/dock/dok-osnova.jpg

    So yet again a good option with ready infrastructure has opened up in the Black sea. So what remains?? Funds!!! For preparing the yard and for the carrier itself.
    But if they are are entrusted with building 1143.5 or 1143.7 size carriers, they need to be put directly under the Sevmash supervision team that undertook the Project 11430. Russian Govt can give carrier construction as an economic incentive for Crimea.

    Or instead they could also start a parallel line for Pr.22350 or other larger ships. A good start can also be with couple of large fleet replenishment ships.

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