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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

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    kvs
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:21 am

    Militarov wrote:Hmm, it would probably be easier just to build another drydock on some of the existing shipyards for major projects atm, tho i dont have anything aganist new shipyards on Far East either. Well they did try to obtain Mistrals which are not only built overseas but also built totally on foreign platform, so i wouldnt be suprised if they did such deal with China, they after all base alot of their navy on originally Russian designs.

    Half of each Mistral hull was built in Russia and sailed to France for assembly.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:24 am

    Militarov wrote:Any information on Russian shipbuilding industry? I mean, any ideas if they will increase shipbuilding capabilities since from what i am aware they are greatly limited in size of the ships they can build atm since biggest shipyard ended up in Ukrainian hands. Coz this long term rearmament program is even mentioning future carrier (100.000t) and i must express my doubt that Russians have shipyard big enough for it, so its either to build it abroad (China?) or to expand some shipyard, Admiralty Shipyard, Sevmash...

    For all the talk about this "great" deficiency in Russia it really is no big deal. If Russia can build a stadium it can build any type
    of drydock. Ukraine can keep its rotting Soviet infrastructure that it can't afford to maintain and has not maintained since 1991.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:27 am

    The newer shipyard either in st pete or eastern Russia (I forgot which one), that is currently under construction with JV work with S.Korea can build ships upwards to 250,000 tons. Or something like that.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:14 am

    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Hmm, it would probably be easier just to build another drydock on some of the existing shipyards for major projects atm, tho i dont have anything aganist new shipyards on Far East either. Well they did try to obtain Mistrals which are not only built overseas but also built totally on foreign platform, so i wouldnt be suprised if they did such deal with China, they after all base alot of their navy on originally Russian designs.

    Half of each Mistral hull was built in Russia and sailed to France for assembly.

    You said it yourself, half of it with quite generous exchange of engineering solutions by French shipyard.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:18 am

    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Any information on Russian shipbuilding industry? I mean, any ideas if they will increase shipbuilding capabilities since from what i am aware they are greatly limited in size of the ships they can build atm since biggest shipyard ended up in Ukrainian hands. Coz this long term rearmament program is even mentioning future carrier (100.000t) and i must express my doubt that Russians have shipyard big enough for it, so its either to build it abroad (China?) or to expand some shipyard, Admiralty Shipyard, Sevmash...

    For all the talk about this "great" deficiency in Russia it really is no big deal.   If Russia can build a stadium it can build any type
    of drydock.   Ukraine can keep its rotting Soviet infrastructure that it can't afford to maintain and has not maintained since 1991.

    I am aware their shipbuliding infrastructure is not in good shape, however Russians seem to neglect abit their shipbuilding resources they desperately need at least two big (when i say big, i mean huge for 100.000t/300m+ shps) drydocks one at least in "warm" port, naturally for both civilian and military purposes. Crimea?

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:01 pm

    As I said, and please, dont ignore it and repeat yourself, they are already making one.

    http://dcss.ru/en/projects/construction-of-zvezda-shipbuilding-complex.html

    Upwards to 350,000 tons

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:54 am

    sepheronx wrote:As I said, and please, dont ignore it and repeat yourself, they are already making one.


    Upwards to 350,000 tons

    It says "will be able to construct tankers with a displacement of up to 350 thousand tons, LNG carriers up to 250,000 cubic meters" that doesnt really makes any sense, i belive they confused here Gross tonnage/DWT and displacement, i do not really have alot of faith in journalists in general. There are no such ships that have 350.000t displacement, Gerald Ford-class aircraft carriers are somewhat around 100.000t of displacement, TI-class supertanker around 70.000t. What they mean is that 350.000t shall be max Deadweight tonnage of ships, at least that is the only thing that makes sense since even if they ment Gross tonnage those would be again some of the biggest ships ever made.

    "Freighters, such as oil tankers and bulk carriers, are often measured by deadweight, measured in imperial tons or tonnes. Deadweight is the weight of freight, fuel, stores and anything else the ship can carry, right down to her cat. Oil tankers of around 500,000 tons deadweight have been built. This appears to be about the practical limit. Few ports can accommodate such ships, which may draw as much as 25 metres of water. The deadweight of a modern cruise ship is quite small, as she carries no freight and only limited fuel. Cruise ship deadweights of less than 10,000 tons are quite common." Source: pomorci.com

    "The Zvezda yard will be a centerpiece in Russian industrial developments in the region. Here, few kilometers from the borders to North Korea and China, a key part of Russia’s future oil and gas industry is likely to be shaped.  The new top-modern yard will be able produce the full range of oil and gas-related installations, among them up to 350.000 dwt tankers." - Source: barentsobserver.com

    When i said they need dry docks that can be used to build 100.000t ships i was refering to displacement, not in DWT, carriers have immense DWT and even tho Zvezda looks promising it does not mean it will be big enough to build carriers, not that i wish it not to be capable of it, uncontrary i am looking forward to see Russian carriers being materialised, however Samsung heavy industries have for an example  Dock No. 3 which is 640 meters long, 97.5 m wide, almost double compared to what Zvezda will have. While so big dry dock is not needed for carrier to be built itself, it depends alot on how much weight they can move around, cranes, profile cutters etc.

    US is building their carriers in Newport News Shipbuilding company and they have couple of docks one of wich is Dock 12 that is 660m long and 76 wide and 510m long outfiting berth, Hyundai has 672m long one, Dalian Shipbuilding Industry in China 550m one, Qingdao Beihai Heavy Industries 480m one, Pipavav Shipyard in India is 640m long and can take ships up to 400.000DWT etc, etc. What i am trying to say is that improvements are good, Zvezda is getting better facilities but i am not sure if its really equipment suitable for carrier building.

    I am an engineer, i like numbers and i like facts, and random saying "we can built 350.000t displacement ships" by journalist who doesnt know difference between weight and mass is of very low value to me. Also if you do not like other people expressing their doubts, opinions and ideas you should quit forums.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:48 am

    The point is that more than one or two large drydocks is wastefull.. they are not going to spend the next 50 years pumping out 20 100K+ aircraft carriers.

    At best it might be 3 carriers in the 60-80K ton range and lots of oil and gas tanker ships.

    Plus perhaps refurbs on Kirov based ships plus a few new builds.

    So in answer to your question they are building new shipyards... using South Korean technology and methods... which are pretty much state of the art in terms of western ship making.

    Capacity to build does not equal build.

    I have the capacity to walk everywhere I need to go, but i don't actually walk to work because it would take too much time.

    Most importantly they are including the capacity to deal with nuclear reactors and to build military ships at the new shipyard.


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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:03 am

    GarryB wrote:The point is that more than one or two large drydocks is wastefull.. they are not going to spend the next 50 years pumping out 20 100K+ aircraft carriers.

    At best it might be 3 carriers in the 60-80K ton range and lots of oil and gas tanker ships.

    Plus perhaps refurbs on Kirov based ships plus a few new builds.

    So in answer to your question they are building new shipyards... using South Korean technology and methods... which are pretty much state of the art in terms of western ship making.

    Capacity to build does not equal build.

    I have the capacity to walk everywhere I need to go, but i don't actually walk to work because it would take too much time.

    Most importantly they are including the capacity to deal with nuclear reactors and to build military ships at the new shipyard.

    Actually having multiple big drydocks is not wasteful, when you are not building military ships they can be building civilian ships during whole year, South Korea Samsung Heavy Industries is building 70 ships per year 90% of which for civilian purposes, i remind you that most of the shipbulding around the globe is actual for civilian purposes and not military. Tankers, LNG carriers, icebreakers, cruise liners, floating cranes, floating drydocks, oil platforms, maritime patrol ships, maritime research ships, ferries, cargo ships, hospital ships, ocean going tugs... Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:34 am

    Interesting if another production line is going to be opened in East for diesel subamarines


    Defense Ministry wants to build diesel submarines to the Pacific Fleet in the Amur plant

    This was stated by deputy head of the Defense Ministry, Yuri Borisov, during his visit to the Amur shipyard, where he inspected the plant built corvettes Project 20380 and a diesel submarine of project 636 "Varshavyanka".

    MOSCOW, September 6 - RIA Novosti. The Russian Defense Ministry will continue to cooperate with the Amur shipyard in the construction of corvettes, as the performance of previous orders, and eventually the plant can trust building diesel submarines to the Pacific Fleet, said the deputy head of the military department, Yuri Borisov.

    As described in the Defense Ministry, Borisov visited the factory on Sunday and visited the shop built Project 20380 corvettes, diesel submarine Project 636 "Varshavyanka", as well as composite products shop.

    According to him, the factory a few years ago was in the verge of bankruptcy, but as the city-forming enterprise it should be retained. Ministry of Defense has gradually load shipyard orders, "Review of the cost parameters' loss-making contract for the construction of the first two corvettes 20380.

    "The plant was delivered condition: if they start rhythmically to fulfill its contractual obligations and in time to hand over the construction phase, we will continue to place orders. What we are gradually doing. They launched their first corvette, we signed with them an additional two contracts for the third and four corvettes. It will continue to build relationships "- quoted Borisov Defense Ministry.

    "That launched the second corvette, will be the fifth and sixth order. In general, in the future, we will look for the construction of this plant diesel submarines to the Pacific Fleet," - said Deputy Minister of Defense.

    Borisov told representatives of the plant, which plans to master the technology of the production of plastic sections of the ship. This technology will allow the court to make such as "sweeper" for the Far East, which previously did here.

    https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/


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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:53 pm

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:i am guessing this is sign they are serious about new carrier and that they want to have more deck capable pilots available.

    The "new" carrier will be the post-mid-life refit Admiral Kuznetsov.

    Even after MLR i have doubts Kuznetsov will be able to take 50 planes, Granits do not take that much space to allow 20+ increase in terms of airwing.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Firebird on Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:51 pm

    How realistic would a "stopgap" 2nd Kuznetsov be, does anyone know?

    I know the next gen aircraft carrier is likely to be very state of the art - drones, satellitte launches, sea drones etc etc. BUT quite a way away.

    Could an updated clone of the Kuznetsov be done quickly and efficiently?
    Maybe even sharing features of an extended Leader class destroyer (but obviously much bigger).

    This would mean economies of scale if it shared parts with the Kuznetsov, and mean that Russia isnt without a crucial AC carrier, when one is being refitted.

    PS after all, Russia produced something similar to the Kuz for India very recently (albeit on a hull that was produced long before).

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:15 pm

    Firebird wrote:How realistic would a "stopgap" 2nd Kuznetsov be, does anyone know?

    I know the next gen aircraft carrier is likely to be very state of the art - drones, satellitte launches, sea drones etc etc. BUT quite a way away.

    Could an updated clone of the Kuznetsov be done quickly and efficiently?
    Maybe even sharing features of an extended Leader class destroyer (but obviously much bigger).

    This would mean economies of scale if it shared parts with the Kuznetsov, and mean that Russia isnt without a crucial AC carrier, when one is being refitted.

    PS after all, Russia produced something similar to the Kuz for India very recently (albeit on a hull that was produced long before).

    Not very likely imo. Best i could imagine is Kuznetsov getting its boilers replaced with reactor since its known for having propulsion issues, but new hull of the class is probably out of the question. Sharing parts with some other class is plausible, coz Russians already claimed they shall build Mistral "replacement" of a kind, that might use some of the components seen on Kuznetsov or at last fairly similar ones.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:31 am

    why not , china proved with major restoration it can be done, with smaller island and without granits and some more space on edges of flattop you can put many aircraft on there....
    Russia will be better with 4-5 medium carriers like this with nuclear reactors taken from icebreakers, that could be more quickly done with less resourses, then 2-3 megalomaniac carrier it dreams...

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:37 am

    Rmf wrote:why not , china proved with major restoration it can be done, with smaller island and without granits and some more space on edges of flattop you can put many aircraft on there....
    Russia will be better with 4-5 medium carriers like this with nuclear reactors taken from icebreakers, that could be more quickly done with less resourses, then 2-3 megalomaniac carrier it dreams...

    Russia does not have China's larger defence budget nor its superior shipbuilding industry.
    Another Russian fix-wing aircraft carrier will remain a dream.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:08 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Rmf wrote:why not , china proved with major restoration it can be done, with smaller island and without granits and some more space on edges of flattop you can put many aircraft on there....
    Russia will be better with 4-5 medium carriers like this with nuclear reactors taken from icebreakers, that could be more quickly done with less resourses, then 2-3 megalomaniac carrier it dreams...

    Russia does not have China's larger defence budget nor its superior shipbuilding industry.
    Another Russian fix-wing aircraft carrier will remain a dream.

    Russia has third largest defense budget. An aircraft carrier costs roughly 1 - 3 billion, which is peanuts for Russias procurement (procurement alone is over $300B for 8 years).  As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

    Go do your homework before spewing bs.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:29 am

    sepheronx wrote:Russia has third largest defense budget.

    Not anymore thanks to ruble devaluation.

    sepheronx wrote:An aircraft carrier costs roughly 1 - 3 billion, which is peanuts for Russias procurement (procurement alone is over $300B for 8 years).

    They are only "peanuts" if you ignore the demands of the rest of the armed forces.

    sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

    None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:39 am

    Sevmash shipyard converted a cruiser (kiev class jump jet) to a fixed wing carrier. They are capable. They also built half the Mistral. It wouldnt take much to build the other half and conjoining them, even for AC.

    We are not even talking of super carrier but a pocket carrier.

    The SAP2020 is $300B after devaluation. It was $500B before it. Add in, parts are Russian so the ships cost in USD terms will also lower (much like Su-35S costs after devaluation of rouble). Anyone with half the knowledge in economics knows this.

    So try harder.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:57 am

    sepheronx wrote:Sevmash shipyard converted a cruiser (kiev class jump jet) to a fixed wing carrier. They are capable.

    I am sure Sevmash is capable of upgrading the Kuznetsov into a more capable vessel.
    Building a new fixed-wing carrier is another issue.
    I am certain Sevmash is not capable of doing it "quickly and efficiently".

    sepheronx wrote:The SAP2020 is $300B after devaluation. It was $500B before it. Add in, parts are Russian so the ships cost in USD terms will also lower (much like Su-35S costs after devaluation of rouble). Anyone with half the knowledge in economics knows this.

    Still not enough if you have to modernize a large ground force, a large air force, a large navy and a nuclear triad as well.
    Look how much the British military struggled to get enough funds for their new carrier despite their central role in the Royal Navy.
    And the British do not have to fund a large ground force and nuclear triad.
    As much as the Russian Navy wants another fixed-wing aircraft carrier, they won't get any in the next decades.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:27 am

    Sevmash and Zvezda in terms of pure labor, got no clue how to build carrier, let alone super carrier with catapult,  at least not at this moment. Adapting already existing hull is one thing, building it from scratch is totally different type of job. Can Russian marine engineers in general do it? Most likely, but it will take quite alot of time, other issue beside lack of experience in building such platforms is lack of propper equipment, Sevmash is not capable to handle ships of such size and weight, even after investments in Zvezda that everyone here is talking about i have significant amount of doubt regarding it building carrier. Sevmash can barely handle Kuznetsov since its around its maximum projected weight and size of its docks. Sevmash with current cranes cant even lift some of the carrier segments, in Mykolaiv they had 1000t cranes, in Russia biggest ones to my knowledge are 550t, lack of docks, lack of skilled workers, lack of cranes, lack of certain (modern) shipbuilding technologies, they slept for 20 years due to bad financial situation, get real and stop chanting "Russia is building carriers in 2018."



    Check slipway and cranes in major shipyards, they can manage averagely sized tankers at the best.

    You can insult me now as much as you like or whatever you like (since some already did regarding this same subject), but supercarrier is faaar from possible in Russia at this moment simply coz of technical reasons, put money aside, they would find money if they really cared to build carrier. Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay. Simple fact is that biggest USSR shipyards ended up being out of todays Russia, where all of the biggest ships were built and Russia is left with 300x30m building docks. China, South Korea, US, Japan, France have drydocks that basically outsize Russian outfitting/repair quays.


    Last edited by Militarov on Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:27 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Sevmash shipyard converted a cruiser (kiev class jump jet) to a fixed wing carrier. They are capable.

    I am sure Sevmash is capable of upgrading the Kuznetsov into a more capable vessel.
    Building a new fixed-wing carrier is another issue.
    I am certain Sevmash is not capable of doing it "quickly and efficiently".

    sepheronx wrote:The SAP2020 is $300B after devaluation. It was $500B before it. Add in, parts are Russian so the ships cost in USD terms will also lower (much like Su-35S costs after devaluation of rouble). Anyone with half the knowledge in economics knows this.

    Still not enough if you have to modernize a large ground force, a large air force, a large navy and a nuclear triad as well.
    Look how much the British military struggled to get enough funds for their new carrier despite their central role in the Royal Navy.
    And the British do not have to fund a large ground force and nuclear triad.
    As much as the Russian Navy wants another fixed-wing aircraft carrier, they won't get any in the next decades.

    You can be sure of anything without anything to back up why you have such opinions, eh?

    As well, $300B is a ton. And what is even more interesting, is that this wasn't the first, SAP, and this isn't the last SAP. This will modernize the forces to 70%. The rest will easily be attainable with even less funds in the future. Once again, $1- 3B is not a lot for a ship. Do the math. Next SAP was speculated to be roughly $800B but more than likely will end up the same number. BTW, SAP is procurement, not on other things like wages.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  mack8 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:17 am

    If even only one of the other 3 Kievs would still be around and not scrapped or sadly ending their days as amusement parks in China... cry Speaking of which, about those cranes, i mentioned this some time ago, why on earth aren't they buying one or even better, several of those chinese 1000 tons cranes? Even the british bought one (or more?) to build their QEC! They only cost peanuts comparatively, just a few tens of millions.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:29 am

    Reconstruction of the bulk pool of "Sevmash"

    To get an idea of then and now (pics of the aircraft carrier as well).

    There was a crane being assembled for a Russian shipyard I mentioned not long ago. I cannot remember which shipyard. But there are engineering companies and even a company that specialized in just Cranes, that would be more than willing to make a massive crane as long as there is $ involved.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:38 am

    mack8 wrote:If even only one of the other 3 Kievs would still be around and not scrapped or sadly ending their days as amusement parks in China... cry  Speaking of which, about those cranes, i mentioned this some time ago, why on earth aren't they buying one or even better, several of those chinese 1000 tons cranes? Even the british bought one (or more?) to build their QEC! They only cost peanuts comparatively, just a few tens of millions.
    The 1000 ton capacity crane at Rosyth cost just over £12m about 4 years ago. The QE carrier is 280m by 39m(waterline), 70.000 tons. Cost is a minimum of £3B each.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:43 am

    Militarov wrote:Sevmash and Zvezda in terms of pure labor, got no clue how to build carrier, let alone super carrier with catapult,  at least not at this moment. Adapting already existing hull is one thing, building it from scratch is totally different type of job. Can Russian marine engineers in general do it? Most likely, but it will take quite alot of time, other issue beside lack of experience in building such platforms is lack of propper equipment, Sevmash is not capable to handle ships of such size and weight, even after investments in Zvezda that everyone here is talking about i have significant amount of doubt regarding it building carrier. Sevmash can barely handle Kuznetsov since its around its maximum projected weight and size of its docks. Sevmash with current cranes cant even lift some of the carrier segments, in Mykolaiv they had 1000t cranes, in Russia biggest ones to my knowledge are 550t, lack of docks, lack of skilled workers, lack of cranes, lack of certain (modern) shipbuilding technologies, they slept for 20 years due to bad financial situation, get real and stop chanting "Russia is building carriers in 2018."



    Check slipway and cranes in major shipyards, they can manage averagely sized tankers at the best.

    You can insult me now as much as you like or whatever you like (since some already did regarding this same subject), but supercarrier is faaar from possible in Russia at this moment simply coz of technical reasons, put money aside, they would find money if they really cared to build carrier. Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay. Simple fact is that biggest USSR shipyards ended up being out of todays Russia, where all of the biggest ships were built and Russia is left with 300x30m building docks. China, South Korea, US, Japan, France have drydocks that basically outsize Russian outfitting/repair quays.

    As noted, Zvezda shipyard will be able to handle ships with displacement of up to 300,000 tons.  The project is indeed a JV with S.Korea.  If it can build carriers or not, is up due to technical reasons more so than the capability of the shipyard.  I have already provided the data on this: http://dcss.ru/en/projects/construction-of-zvezda-shipbuilding-complex.html

    If it is able to build military projects or not, I dunno.  But I imagine it could be done as most civilian industries in the past converted to military production with not much investments.

    I would say, with even the pictures involved on the conversion of the Kiev class ship to a fixed wing carrier, it was quite impressive.  Even without the initial investment in Sevmash shipyard.

    And I dunno where you get the idea that anyone is saying super carriers.  But small pocket carriers would be idea for Russia.  As well, they can also fit catapults hence why Russia is investing in it (If you know better than the Russian engineers and MIC, I highly suggest you contact them).

    If they can retrofit any other cruisers that they have into a carrier, it could be very ideal for them for the time being. Since they are interested in building a carrier eventually, I imagine they will invest the needed funds into a shipyard to build it. Since Zvezda shipyard is going to be their largest shipyard, I imagine it will be that. But that wont be until after 2020 since 2018 is the initial completion date of the Zvezda shipyard.

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