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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:49 am

    They really need to take the management staff and shoot them in a public setting send a message to the others, because at this point this is just criminal. Once heads start rolling things would improve somewhat.

    Funny... you call me a fanboi, yet your solutions make you sound like Joseph Stalin...

    Do not make excuses for the shipyard.

    Don't waste your breath Hole... this guy is a western person with a set method of attack... make stupid claims based on ignorance and as each part of the accusation is proven wrong end up with the "Well they were better off after we invaded their country and killed off half the population of young men in their country because their leader were bad".

    It doesn't matter if there are valid reasons why Saddam gassed his own people (they weren't his own people , they were kurds that wanted their own country... at the same time Saddam was gassing them the Turkish were bombing them with aircraft too, but that is OK... no invasion of Turkey.)

    The point is that action has to be swift and without thought... ask SS or shall we just call you Stalin... the situation has left the Russian Navy in a poor position, but the Russian Navy wont be important for another 10-20 years when exports and trade by sea become more important for Russia, but his solution to fixing the problem is to break everything and start again... and Russia can't afford that... it would be far too expensive... and quite frankly fucking stupid.

    Paid before? Are you serious? It´s not a car. The customer pays a few Million to get the construction started, after that there are payments for different stages until the rest ist paid after the completion of the ship.

    Exactly right... quite often when a ship or sub is laid down there is not enough money to complete them anyway... sometimes some of her final components are not even ready to be fitted to the ship.

    The Udaloy class was at sea for several years before the radar antenna for the naval TOR system was operational... the Kuznetsov didn't have a working radar array for quite some time either... not the last vessel in the Kiev class...



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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Hole on Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:41 am

    I wouldn´t say the Russian Navy is in a poor state. The composition of there force differed always from the western one. Rememper, there capital ship is the submarine.

    In the 80´s it was like this:
    1. Submarines
    2. Bombers
    3. Surface ships

    Today (estimate):
    1. Submarines
    2. Multi-purpose fighters (Su-30SM)
    3. Small Surface ships (Karakurt)
    4. Coastal Defence Systems (Bastion and Bal)
    5. Large Surface ships
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  ZoA on Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:33 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:**bunch of nonsense**

    Those are bunch of stupid excuses made by someone that has no clue how shipyards, or general engineering, work. Shipyards do not need CAD software to operate, an that same software can be obtained for trivial sums anyway. Shipyards do not need CNC machines either. What shipyards really need is a dock, sheet metal storage and prep, metal cutters, cranes, presses, bunch of welders, more welders, and then some more welders, bunch of electricians, painters, pipe workers and similar ship equipment furnishers, and so on. I don't know where people get this retarded idea manufacturing can't be done without CNC machines and CAD software, especially that they are important in shipyards.  Ships were built long before any CAD and CNC existed.

    Also ridiculous apologia for incompetent managers and owners is exactly what can be expected form ignorant know nothing libertarians, it is always either state's fault, or worker's fault, managers and owners are infallible, only victims of circumstances forced on them. But when one actually looks at the data obstructionism and sabotage by that same management becomes perfectly obvious. How is it that it takes Yantar shipyard average of 2,5 to 3 years from laying down the keel to launch when it builds 11356s for India but it takes them  3-4 years to do the same for 11356s built for Russian navy? It is the same fucking shipyard building the same basic fucking ship but it takes them 50% longer to do same work when they do it for Russian navy!! And ridiculous naive people like you claim those hopples managers simply can't do with obsolete shipyards they have. Utter nonsense, completely contradicted by basic facts. The is pure and simple deliberate sabotage, obstructionism by 5th column working to undermine Russian defence capability. There is no other explanation why same work in same shipyard takes 50% longer when it is done for Russian navy then it takes when it is done for export.  
    angry

    Also you don't need separate paragraph for each sentence.

    Hole

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Hole on Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:59 pm

    Easy to explain, ZoA.
    Price for India: 770 Mio. Bucks.
    Price for Russia: 206 Mio. Bucks.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:01 pm

    ZoA wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:**bunch of nonsense**

    Those are bunch of stupid excuses made by someone that has no clue how shipyards, or general engineering, work. Shipyards do not need CAD software to operate, an that same software can be obtained for trivial sums anyway. Shipyards do not need CNC machines either. What shipyards really need is a dock, sheet metal storage and prep, metal cutters, cranes, presses, bunch of welders, more welders, and then some more welders, bunch of electricians, painters, pipe workers and similar ship equipment furnishers, and so on. I don't know where people get this retarded idea manufacturing can't be done without CNC machines and CAD software, especially that they are important in shipyards.  Ships were built long before any CAD and CNC existed.

    Also ridiculous apologia for incompetent managers and owners is exactly what can be expected form ignorant know nothing libertarians, it is always either state's fault, or worker's fault, managers and owners are infallible, only victims of circumstances forced on them. But when one actually looks at the data obstructionism and sabotage by that same management becomes perfectly obvious. How is it that it takes Yantar shipyard average of 2,5 to 3 years from laying down the keel to launch when it builds 11356s for India but it takes them  3-4 years to do the same for 11356s built for Russian navy? It is the same fucking shipyard building the same basic fucking ship but it takes them 50% longer to do same work when they do it for Russian navy!! And ridiculous naive people like you claim those hopples managers simply can't do with obsolete shipyards they have. Utter nonsense, completely contradicted by basic facts. The is pure and simple deliberate sabotage, obstructionism by 5th column working to undermine Russian defence capability. There is no other explanation why same work in same shipyard takes 50% longer when it is done for Russian navy then it takes when it is done for export.  
    angry

    Also you don't need separate paragraph for each sentence.

    CNC is absolutely essential, not for the hull but for trivial parts, shapes and assemblies. CNC has been around since before computer control, using punch cards and implementing G-code.

    I agree with the rest though, Russian shipyards are pretty useless for any combat, surface vessel over ca. 2,000 tons. The Russian surface fleet at this point is a brown water collection of glorified coast guard vessels, 3? new frigates and some hints of quarter century-old Soviet relics with numbers probably counted using two hands.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They really need to take the management staff and shoot them in a public setting send a message to the others, because at this point this is just criminal. Once heads start rolling things would improve somewhat.

    Funny... you call me a fanboi, yet your solutions make you sound like Joseph Stalin...

    Do not make excuses for the shipyard.

    Don't waste your breath Hole... this guy is a western person with a set method of attack... make stupid claims based on ignorance and as each part of the accusation is proven wrong end up with the "Well they were better off after we invaded their country and killed off half the population of young men in their country because their leader were bad".

    It doesn't matter if there are valid reasons why Saddam gassed his own people (they weren't his own people , they were kurds that wanted their own country... at the same time Saddam was gassing them the Turkish were bombing them with aircraft too, but that is OK... no invasion of Turkey.)

    The point is that action has to be swift and without thought... ask SS or shall we just call you Stalin... the situation has left the Russian Navy in a poor position, but the Russian Navy wont be important for another 10-20 years when exports and trade by sea become more important for Russia, but his solution to fixing the problem is to break everything and start again... and Russia can't afford that... it would be far too expensive... and quite frankly fucking stupid.

    Paid before? Are you serious? It´s not a car. The customer pays a few Million to get the construction started, after that there are payments for different stages until the rest ist paid after the completion of the ship.

    Exactly right... quite often when a ship or sub is laid down there is not enough money to complete them anyway... sometimes some of her final components are not even ready to be fitted to the ship.

    The Udaloy class was at sea for several years before the radar antenna for the naval TOR system was operational... the Kuznetsov didn't have a working radar array for quite some time either... not the last vessel in the Kiev class...


    Didn't I say I was done with you or do you want me to say that in a language you understand please tell me what languages you know so I can say it in that one then.

    Russia could take 20 years to build a frigate and you would find no fault with it. so be quiet.

    For the record, I consider removing Saddam to be a huge mistake and I was against it.

    But none of that changes the incompetence of Russian shipbuilding industry and thats why you are a fanboy you refuse to admit what is openly there and instead defend guys whom are harming Russia's defense ability.

    Also it's not talking them Russia in its shipbuilding industry has displayed incompetence again and again and again that is fact, pure and simple fact.

    So shush it, I don't want to hear from you again, I had enough of your fanboyism
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:27 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Didn't I say I was done with you or do you want me to say that in a language you understand please tell me what languages you know so I can say it in that one then.

    Russia could take 20 years to build a frigate and you would find no fault with it. so be quiet.

    For the record, I consider removing Saddam to be a huge mistake and I was against it.

    But none of that changes the incompetence of Russian shipbuilding industry and thats why you are a fanboy you refuse to admit what is openly there and instead defend guys whom are harming Russia's defense ability.

    So shush it, I don't want to hear from you again, I had enough of your fanboyism

    Russia facilitated Najibullah's removal in Afghanistan, so half of the GWOT clvsterfvck is on them actually. And before anyone acts all 'but USA funded the Muj'. Well it's not as if USSR had sorted the rising Islamic problems within their own border (Caucasus/Central Asia -stans) before invading another -stan. In fact they were very weak during the '80s with all that Islamic revival and rising nationalism in the home front. And yet they decided to destabilize Central Asia by carrying out a decade-long war they couldn't afford. Then proceed to with an Obamaesque pull-out and sell-out; giving rise to AQ (and now IS).
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  ZoA on Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:53 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    CNC is absolutely essential, not for the hull but for trivial parts, shapes and assemblies. CNC has been around since before computer control, using punch cards and implementing G-code.

    CNC is not essential, anything done on CNC can be done without it. Greatest advantage of CNC is that you can employ idiots to operate it, all they need to do is to place the work peace in the vice, set zero, let the machine do the work, and take the part out, repeat. To do the same on classical machine, depending on complexity of the items, might require very experienced and skilful machinist, and for some especially complex pieces might require specialised old school machines and tools. I have worked both in shops with classical machines , and with CNC work stations, and form my experience I can say for simpler single item, or small series of few items, skilful operator on classical machine can do it faster then it would take to set up CNC machine for the same work. Of course for larger series CNC machine would be faster, so for same work you need to pay less workers less money because they don't need to be skilful.

    TL:DR CNC are not essential, all they do is reduce you labour costs.

    In shipyard only really useful CNC machine would be plasma cutter. Ships are built from cut up sheet steel / steel plates /  steel profiles that need to be cut to measure before welding or shaping on the rollers and presses. But that can be done by other methods too, but you will need greater number of more skilful workers to do it the old way.

    All other work in shipyards are crazy amount of welding, much of it done manually by very expensive and skilful welders, then large amount of painting, electrical, work, hydraulic and other piping, installation of large amount of equipment received from subcontractors, testing, lots of testing, furnishing, and so on. CNC machines will help you with non of those in any way.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:07 pm

    ZoA wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    CNC is absolutely essential, not for the hull but for trivial parts, shapes and assemblies. CNC has been around since before computer control, using punch cards and implementing G-code.

    CNC is not essential, anything done on CNC can be done without it. Greatest advantage of CNC is that you can employ idiots to operate it, all they need to do is to place the work peace in the vice, set zero, let the machine do the work, and take the part out, repeat. To do the same on classical machine, depending on complexity of the items, might require very experienced and skilful machinist, and for some especially complex pieces might require specialised old school machines and tools. I have worked both in shops with classical machines , and with CNC work stations, and form my experience I can say for simpler single item, or small series of few items, skilful operator on classical machine can do it faster then it would take to set up CNC machine for the same work. Of course for larger series CNC machine would be faster, so for same work you need to pay less workers less money because they don't need to be skilful.

    TL:DR CNC are not essential, all they do is reduce you labour costs.

    In shipyard only really useful CNC machine would be plasma cutter. Ships are built from cut up sheet steel / steel plates /  steel profiles that need to be cut to measure before welding or shaping on the rollers and presses. But that can be done by other methods too, but you will need greater number of more skilful workers to do it the old way.

    All other work in shipyards are crazy amount of welding, much of it done manually by very expensive and skilful welders, then large amount of painting, electrical, work, hydraulic and other piping, installation of large amount of equipment received from subcontractors, testing, lots of testing, furnishing, and so on. CNC machines will help you with non of those in any way.

    I'm not talking about ''shipyard work'' though. I'm talking about building and delivering a combat vessel.
    Hence you need as much CNC as you can get.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:14 am

    I wouldn´t say the Russian Navy is in a poor state.

    It has plenty of ships, but most of the larger ships are obsolete soviet vessels that could do with replacement.

    The priority of the Russian federation means the navy is no where near top, yet the costs of a navy are high... and that combination means limits on what can be produced and when.

    They are moving in the right direction, but the speed is not fast, but as I said the navy is not a high priority at the moment because Russian trade is not mostly sea based at the moment.

    As Russia moves away from the west... or should I say as the west pushes Russia away, Russia needs to look for other markets and other trading partners, and will rely more and more on its shipping to do so.

    If the EU decides against nord 2 then Russia might end up with south stream and shipped liquified gas... and no gas going through the ukraine.

    It is going to cost the EU rather more money, and they might decide to buy US gas for even more on political grounds, but china is growing and so are many other countries around the world they can ship LNG to... and for a better price than what they were getting from Europe.

    Russia has had problems with their new ships... which is understandable... as I keep saying... they could pump out enormous numbers of ships if they kept making 1980s cold war era boats, but they are developing new multirole vessels and that is complicated and time consuming... but once they get them right they can produce them rapidly because they are modular and standardised.

    Shipyards do not need CAD software to operate, an that same software can be obtained for trivial sums anyway.

    All the new designs for ships will be digital... if the shipyard is not equipped with the right support equipment it is going to have problems... equally having experienced ship builders is one thing... they can work from paper plans, but can they use digital systems too?

    Shipyards do not need CNC machines either. What shipyards really need is a dock, sheet metal storage and prep, metal cutters, cranes, presses, bunch of welders, more welders, and then some more welders, bunch of electricians, painters, pipe workers and similar ship equipment furnishers, and so on. I don't know where people get this retarded idea manufacturing can't be done without CNC machines and CAD software, especially that they are important in shipyards. Ships were built long before any CAD and CNC existed.

    A CNC machine produces parts, and does it to very fine tollerances... and it can work 24 hours a day if you want... humans can generally make the same stuff but not as quickly or as easily and often not to the same degree of accuracy... especially when making thousands of components.

    How is it that it takes Yantar shipyard average of 2,5 to 3 years from laying down the keel to launch when it builds 11356s for India but it takes them 3-4 years to do the same for 11356s built for Russian navy? It is the same fucking shipyard building the same basic fucking ship but it takes them 50% longer to do same work when they do it for Russian navy!!

    Do you think there is a difference between assembling foreign components and putting them into a Russian designed ship and waiting for Russian suppliers of components that are generally new and untested like vertical launch Shtil missiles and sensors and then fitting them to a ship might take a little longer to do that different job?

    Also you don't need separate paragraph for each sentence.

    Separate paragraphs for separate ideas or subjects makes text easier to read.

    Having everything in a big wall of text makes it harder to read and easier to lose your place.

    It is the same with text... typing in all caps makes it harder for an adult to read as most adults read by word shape rather than looking at each letter.

    There are examples of this on the internet... where there is a big piece of text but a lot of letters are moved around but the text can still be read because the word shape is the same.

    3? new frigates and some hints of quarter century-old Soviet relics with numbers probably counted using two hands.

    To be fair, three state of the art frigates that in the next couple of years will be able to carry hypersonic Zircon missiles and be rather potent vessels, plus a lot of old cold war ships that are no where near state of the art but sufficient for the job the Russian Navy has at the moment.

    Lots of problems to solve but will not be solved by shooting managers or other stalin shit.

    Didn't I say I was done with you or do you want me to say that in a language you understand please tell me what languages you know so I can say it in that one then.

    I clearly understand you are done talking to me, but I will not ignore your bullshit and say nothing when you say stupid things.

    Russia could take 20 years to build a frigate and you would find no fault with it. so be quiet.

    The Russian navy is not important right now... they can't fix everything at once... nobody can.

    They could start building carriers and cruisers and all sorts of shit... in fact if you were right and I was a fanboi that is what I would be demanding and I would be bleating like a little bitch like many here are that this is not happening.

    But I am not a fanboi... I don't wish Russia had a navy able to take on all of NATO including the US because that would bankrupt her over night... and what would it even achieve?

    For the record, I consider removing Saddam to be a huge mistake and I was against it.

    You are not suggesting the west is not perfect are you?

    Next you might even admit that Russia isn't perfect either and that not having a huge binge building frigates and destroyers like sausages isn't the end of the world either... or is that too much common sense?

    But none of that changes the incompetence of Russian shipbuilding industry and thats why you are a fanboy you refuse to admit what is openly there and instead defend guys whom are harming Russia's defense ability.

    If they were building cold war boats then I would agree... the Russian shipbuilding industry would be pretty bad if it could not knock off a few hundred ships... but even the corvettes they are building are more powerful than most NATO frigates... how many NATO frigates can carry 2,500km range land attack cruise missiles?

    How many can carry mach 3 Onyx anti ship missiles?

    How many in perhaps 5 years time will have mach 8 Zircon hypersonic anti ship missiles?

    They are having problems with engines, they are having problems with new SAMs... the redut Poliment is not going well but then the land based system is not actually in service right now either... perhaps it is very complicated and still needs further development work... or it just needs field testing...

    Likely having problems with new large array AESA radar too...

    For a while they had problems with their new guns... they do have a 100mm gun lighter than their old 76mm guns... that is the sort of improvement they are going for... but no they are all failures and should be taken out and shot as an example for people not to aspire to manage shipyards because of judgemental pricks on the internet will not tolerate failure!


    So shush it, I don't want to hear from you again, I had enough of your fanboyism

    I listen but I don't agree... with this comment and most of the others you make.

    I am sure you will get over it.

    Russia facilitated Najibullah's removal in Afghanistan, so half of the GWOT clvsterfvck is on them actually. And before anyone acts all 'but USA funded the Muj'. Well it's not as if USSR had sorted the rising Islamic problems within their own border (Caucasus/Central Asia -stans) before invading another -stan. In fact they were very weak during the '80s with all that Islamic revival and rising nationalism in the home front. And yet they decided to destabilize Central Asia by carrying out a decade-long war they couldn't afford. Then proceed to with an Obamaesque pull-out and sell-out; giving rise to AQ (and now IS).

    Russia had to interfere in Afghanistan to stop the CIA from turning it into another Iran... a puppet state of the US until the Iranians rose up and kicked them out.

    The kicking out of the CIA in Iran in 1979 only increased the focus of the US on afghanistan.

    But then the utopia that was afghanistan can't be blamed completely on US interference... Britain did invade them about 4 times not including the most recent invasion... and they worked out so good too.


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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:35 pm

    Hole wrote:Easy to explain, ZoA.
    Price for India: 770 Mio. Bucks.
    Price for Russia: 206 Mio. Bucks.

    You just backed up zoa on how fucked up the management is for these shipyards. Combat ships for Russian navy are a NATIONAL SECURITY PRIORITY, not a simly a bronze shipyard reduced service subscription. Anything built for Russia should be built as efficiently or more than any 3rd party, especially a US bootlicker like India. Thats why the USSR managed to rebuild its navy at such a pace, unlike whatever bourgeois orthodox faggots say, it actually looked after Russian interests.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:37 pm

    ZoA wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    CNC is absolutely essential, not for the hull but for trivial parts, shapes and assemblies. CNC has been around since before computer control, using punch cards and implementing G-code.

    CNC is not essential, anything done on CNC can be done without it. Greatest advantage of CNC is that you can employ idiots to operate it, all they need to do is to place the work peace in the vice, set zero, let the machine do the work, and take the part out, repeat. To do the same on classical machine, depending on complexity of the items, might require very experienced and skilful machinist, and for some especially complex pieces might require specialised old school machines and tools. I have worked both in shops with classical machines , and with CNC work stations, and form my experience I can say for simpler single item, or small series of few items, skilful operator on classical machine can do it faster then it would take to set up CNC machine for the same work. Of course for larger series CNC machine would be faster, so for same work you need to pay less workers less money because they don't need to be skilful.

    TL:DR CNC are not essential, all they do is reduce you labour costs.

    In shipyard only really useful CNC machine would be plasma cutter. Ships are built from cut up sheet steel / steel plates /  steel profiles that need to be cut to measure before welding or shaping on the rollers and presses. But that can be done by other methods too, but you will need greater number of more skilful workers to do it the old way.

    All other work in shipyards are crazy amount of welding, much of it done manually by very expensive and skilful welders, then large amount of painting, electrical, work, hydraulic and other piping, installation of large amount of equipment received from subcontractors, testing, lots of testing, furnishing, and so on. CNC machines will help you with non of those in any way.

    Not to mention CAD and CNC are more important for subcomponents already built elsewhere before getting handed to the shipyard.

    One could say that incompetence and sabotage in building these subcomponents(The Almaz Antey fuckup, Ivan Grens shitty engine gears, that ukrainian oligarch sabotaging the sub nuclear reactors) is also a problem but that means that the whole house of cards thats the Russian shipbuilding industry ownership and managements should be purged.


    I will always consider the only legitimate delay issues of Russian shipyards are the lack of powerplants, everything else is simply bourgeois treason.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:56 pm


    Pella parking lot:
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:57 am

    You just backed up zoa on how fucked up the management is for these shipyards.

    You obviously never worked in retail... paying 700 million for a boat means much bigger profit margins on everything and lots of spare cash left over in the mix to pay a proper wage and upgrade the shipyard with new tools and equipment.

    Paying 200 million for the same boat means lots of efficiencies and cut corners and more critical deadlines for payments... if you pay a subcontracter in advance they will likely turn up early and get the job done quickly... tell them you will pay them when you can and they will do the payment up front jobs first... you might not see him for weeks.

    Sometimes the payments wont go through in time and other times the priorities will change and the money will disappear.

    If you want to fire people for such things (that they have no control over) then you will end up with the B team... and then the C team... and then the D team... do you think their might be a reason the D team is not starting this job in the first place?

    Like there were better people available?

    All plans and specs will be CAD based... just for all the wiring.

    And CNC machines means that parts can be made on site instead of made on someone elses CNC machine and brought in...


    _________________
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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Hole

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:27 pm

    You missed the Point, Kommissar.
    Let´s say, India is paying 250 Mio. in advance, so the yard can build the ship 24/7.
    Russia is paying less, therefore the yard is only building the ship as fast as it is paid for every step.

    You´re right, that the SU could build it´s Navy faster, because 2 Million People were working in the sector and nobody looked at the Money, that was spend. But the workers were living in 15 m² appartements, some Food items were scarce, the whole living conditions were worse.

    Look at India. It´s a big slum. Part of Modis election program was the Installation of millions of toilets. But they are spendig Billions on Defence.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:14 pm

    Hole wrote:You missed the Point, Kommissar.
    Let´s say, India is paying 250 Mio. in advance, so the yard can build the ship 24/7.
    Russia is paying less, therefore the yard is only building the ship as fast as it is paid for every step.

    You´re right, that the SU could build it´s Navy faster, because 2 Million People were working in the sector and nobody looked at the Money, that was spend. But the workers were living in 15 m² appartements, some Food items were scarce, the whole living conditions were worse.

    Look at India. It´s a big slum. Part of Modis election program was the Installation of millions of toilets. But they are spendig Billions on Defence.

    sorry buttercup this is a lie, Russia does not pay some now and some later. No shipyard does this, the shipyard will not lay down the vessel if you do not pay them upfront period.

    Shipyards require all the money upfront so they do not get stuck with the vessel if the government suddenly cannot pay.

    Keep peddling with what a myth.

    Hole

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:02 pm

    In which world are you living? No customer will pay the whole amount in front, doens´t matter if the ship is a cruise liner, a Container ship or a nuclear powered multi purpose battle ship. Why do you think western ships are put in Service so fast, even if they are barely capable of staying afloat? The Yard (= the Oligarch behind it) wants his tax Payer Money!
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:42 pm

    Hole wrote:In which world are you living? No customer will pay the whole amount in front, doens´t matter if the ship is a cruise liner, a Container ship or a nuclear powered multi purpose battle ship. Why do you think western ships are put in Service so fast, even if they are barely capable of staying afloat? The Yard (= the Oligarch behind it) wants his tax Payer Money!

    I live in the real world and that is how shipyards operate because if they don't they risk getting stuck with a hull they don't need and then it costs them money to do something about it and that is onething that could go wrong.

    So spare me, you can peddle what myths you wish just letting you know those myths aren't reality.

    Making up excuses for what is incompetence helps no one but the those being incompetent keep on making problems, it's funny I am on a Russian forum but pro-russian fanboys are defending what is clear harm and sabotage to Russia defense.

    It's sad really if you cannot admit there is a problem, the problem will never be fixed.

    It's funny how the ONE privately owned company is doing better than all the rest eh? and is actually able to deliver ships on time.

    You do realize if your excuse was fact, Pella would have delayed and Pella is always on time.

    But geez I wonder why Pella is able to deliver things at a reasonable timeframe but no one else can.....

    I swear ignorance simply because it's Russia is a sad sad thing.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Isos on Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:46 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Hole wrote:In which world are you living? No customer will pay the whole amount in front, doens´t matter if the ship is a cruise liner, a Container ship or a nuclear powered multi purpose battle ship. Why do you think western ships are put in Service so fast, even if they are barely capable of staying afloat? The Yard (= the Oligarch behind it) wants his tax Payer Money!

    I live in the real world and that is how shipyards operate because if they don't they risk getting stuck with a hull they don't need and then it costs them money to do something about it and that is onething that could go wrong.

    So spare me, you can peddle what myths you wish just letting you know those myths aren't reality.

    Making up excuses for what is incompetence helps no one but the those being incompetent keep on making problems, it's funny I am on a Russian forum but pro-russian fanboys are defending what is clear harm and sabotage to Russia defense.

    It's sad really if you cannot admit there is a problem, the problem will never be fixed.

    It's funny how the ONE privately owned company is doing better than all the rest eh? and is actually able to deliver ships on time.

    You do realize if your excuse was fact, Pella would have delayed and Pella is always on time.

    But geez I wonder why Pella is able to deliver things at a reasonable timeframe but no one else can.....

    I swear ignorance simply because it's Russia is a sad sad thing.

    Are you aware that contracts are made and that there are penalities and delivery dates for each part of the ship. So of course they pay step by step. All the last russian product ships were waiting for years in shipyard because they couldn't give the money to them to finish them which means they didn't pay all at the begining of the construction.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Peŕrier on Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:17 am

    As far as I know, no ship is paid for in advance, at least no ship of a decent size/cost.

    Around the world, customer advance the yard enough money to order those subsystems requiring months or years before being delivered, plus an amount enough for the first stage of building/assembly. There is a string of milestones, each to be checked by the customer, and at any milestone cleared the customer advance an additional amount of money for the following stage.

    So when or if delays are money related. and assuming russian MoD follows the same approach of virtually every MoD on Earth, such delays could not come unexpected: the MoD refuses to advance an additional amount of money (either because lacking funds or because of bad quality of the work already performed) and the yard stops working in the ship.

    But that's not the point.

    The russians themselves have many times underlined the poor track record of many yards, some of them being almost unable to complete any ship.

    Yantar is not a bad yard at all: whether the indian frigates have been a series built class (again: specializing a yard in a specific class get huge gains n the long run) the "Admirals" have been an updated version tailored for the russian Navy.

    Getting one built in four year, opposed to less than three years for the indian version, is no shame at all.

    CAD, CAM and CNC machines are the holy grail not only of manufacturing, but of designing as well. Whenever an alteration is needed, having a modern CAD project gives the chance to perform any change in little time, with a far greater chance the new parts would seamlessly couple themselves with the rest of the ship. Occurrences of bulkheads and whatever else no longer fitting where they were supposed to be fitted, because of a last minute design's change, have been an old joke amongst any shipbuilding industry in the wold, and CAD helps avoiding being the next iteration of the same old joke.

    But CAD actually opens new possibilities, beyond efficiency and speed. Any part designed with a modern CAD system could be feed into a structural simulator to verify its load bearing and fatigue bearing characteristics. Actually, whole complex systems of tens or hundreds of parts could be studied that way.

    And there are far greater design's opportunities: just naming screws, they are far more complex parts than it could appear from the outside: while it is well possible to design a very good screw, both in terms of efficiency and prevention of cavitation effects, actually manufacturing one is a whole different story.

    Unless you are hiring a new Michelangelo and his hammer, the only way to realize with the required precision and quality what some naval engineer has spent months to design, is to resort to high precision 5-axis milling machines.

    A kind of machines that Russia has been very eager to purchase in numbers from builders in Japan and Switzerland in the late 90ies and early 2000s, for those russian yards building its new subs.

    Does it ring some bells?

    The bottom line is that many yards require a deep recapitalization of their infrastructure, and only the MoD can pay for it.

    On the other hand, without a deep and pervasive accountability system in place (where accountability means everybody has to prove that he is delivering the same level of performances as in the global industry standards), there could not be any guarantee that the money poured to upgrade old and obsolete yards will pay back in terms of quality and speed of building.

    Russia has several examples of smart, private companies having succeeded in their markets: Transas, Kaspersky, Pella, S7, Yandex, VK to name a few.

    There are surely enough smart, competent and motivated people in Russia to rebuild from the ground up the shipbuilding industry, just give them a chance (and the funds)  to do it, and show the exit door to those old managers and engineers unable to perform as required.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:49 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Hole wrote:In which world are you living? No customer will pay the whole amount in front, doens´t matter if the ship is a cruise liner, a Container ship or a nuclear powered multi purpose battle ship. Why do you think western ships are put in Service so fast, even if they are barely capable of staying afloat? The Yard (= the Oligarch behind it) wants his tax Payer Money!

    I live in the real world and that is how shipyards operate because if they don't they risk getting stuck with a hull they don't need and then it costs them money to do something about it and that is onething that could go wrong.

    So spare me, you can peddle what myths you wish just letting you know those myths aren't reality.

    Making up excuses for what is incompetence helps no one but the those being incompetent keep on making problems, it's funny I am on a Russian forum but pro-russian fanboys are defending what is clear harm and sabotage to Russia defense.

    It's sad really if you cannot admit there is a problem, the problem will never be fixed.

    It's funny how the ONE privately owned company is doing better than all the rest eh? and is actually able to deliver ships on time.

    You do realize if your excuse was fact, Pella would have delayed and Pella is always on time.

    But geez I wonder why Pella is able to deliver things at a reasonable timeframe but no one else can.....

    I swear ignorance simply because it's Russia is a sad sad thing.

    Are you aware that contracts are made and that there are penalities and delivery dates for each part of the ship. So of course they pay step by step. All the last russian product ships were waiting for years in shipyard because they couldn't give the money to them to finish them which means they didn't pay all at the begining of the construction.

    There were delays yes but not because of lack of money. They were waiting years in shipyards for other reasons. Again this is an excuse but hey if you are fine with russia taking over a decade to build one single decently sized ship then hey fine with me, So at that point not only is Russia incompetent in shipbuilding they are incompetent with budgeting
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:54 am

    Peŕrier wrote:As far as I know, no ship is paid for in advance, at least no ship of a decent size/cost.

    Around the world, customer advance the yard enough money to order those subsystems requiring months or years before being delivered, plus an amount enough for the first stage of building/assembly. There is a string of milestones, each to be checked by the customer, and at any milestone cleared the customer advance an additional amount of money for the following stage.

    So when or if delays are money related. and assuming russian MoD follows the same approach of virtually every MoD on Earth, such delays could not come unexpected: the MoD refuses to advance an additional amount of money (either because lacking funds or because of bad quality of the work already performed) and the yard stops working in the ship.

    But that's not the point.

    The russians themselves have many times underlined the poor track record of many yards, some of them being almost unable to complete any ship.

    Yantar is not a bad yard at all: whether the indian frigates have been a series built class (again: specializing a yard in a specific class get huge gains n the long run) the "Admirals" have been an updated version tailored for the russian Navy.

    Getting one built in four year, opposed to less than three years for the indian version, is no shame at all.

    CAD, CAM and CNC machines are the holy grail not only of manufacturing, but of designing as well. Whenever an alteration is needed, having a modern CAD project gives the chance to perform any change in little time, with a far greater chance the new parts would seamlessly couple themselves with the rest of the ship. Occurrences of bulkheads and whatever else no longer fitting where they were supposed to be fitted, because of a last minute design's change, have been an old joke amongst any shipbuilding industry in the wold, and CAD helps avoiding being the next iteration of the same old joke.

    But CAD actually opens new possibilities, beyond efficiency and speed. Any part designed with a modern CAD system could be feed into a structural simulator to verify its load bearing and fatigue bearing characteristics. Actually, whole complex systems of tens or hundreds of parts could be studied that way.

    And there are far greater design's opportunities: just naming screws, they are far more complex parts than it could appear from the outside: while it is well possible to design a very good screw, both in terms of efficiency and prevention of cavitation effects, actually manufacturing one is a whole different story.

    Unless you are hiring a new Michelangelo and his hammer, the only way to realize with the required precision and quality what some naval engineer has spent months to design, is to resort to high precision 5-axis milling machines.

    A kind of machines that Russia has been very eager to purchase in numbers from builders in Japan and Switzerland in the late 90ies and early 2000s, for those russian yards building its new subs.

    Does it ring some bells?

    The bottom line is that many yards require a deep recapitalization of their infrastructure, and only the MoD can pay for it.

    On the other hand, without a deep and pervasive accountability system in place (where accountability means everybody has to prove that he is delivering the same level of performances as in the global industry standards), there could not be any guarantee that the money poured to upgrade old and obsolete yards will pay back in terms of quality and speed of building.

    Russia has several examples of smart, private companies having succeeded in their markets: Transas, Kaspersky, Pella, S7, Yandex, VK to name a few.

    There are surely enough smart, competent and motivated people in Russia to rebuild from the ground up the shipbuilding industry, just give them a chance (and the funds)  to do it, and show the exit door to those old managers and engineers unable to perform as required.

    Far has you know then you would be wrong US, for example, pays upfront for all the stuff we build ship wise.

    The infrastructure you can argue is part of the problem sure, but that is not the only problem.

    It's the management also which needs to be purged and suitable people put in place.

    If a shipyard in China, Korea, US took that long the people in charge would be fired because such delays are not excusable.

    Yet it seems according to everyone here incompetent management staff is acceptable, geez I would have thought you'd want the best people for the job.

    and yes Russia pays for it's shit upfront. I they didn't their military budget would be VASTLY larger then it is now.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:28 am

    and yes Russia pays for it's shit upfront. I they didn't their military budget would be VASTLY larger then it is now.

    What is paid for up front?

    Did Russia pay the French for the Ka-52K helicopters for the two Mistral carriers it paid for?

    Half of those hulls were built in Russian yards... so how did that work?

    Did the Russian government pay full price to the french or the russian ship yards.. or both?

    Did the french government pay the russian government back all its money paid and then pay the Russian shipyards for the work they did on the vessels?

    The funny thing is you believe what you say... when the current US carrier was laid down was the price agreed and the price paid the same as the final price of these vessels... because there was a rather big difference between when it was laid down and when it enters service... you don't know the actual price until it is complete... ask the Indians about their new modified Russian carrier...

    Why would you pay a shipyard the full price of a vessel when it is only building the hull and might not be the place where all the components and systems are installed and fitted out... let alone weapons and aircraft are added...

    Why does a shipyard need all that money just to lay down a keel and build a hull and structure around it...


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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:20 pm

    You hit the nail, GarryB.
    +
    Which incentive would a Yard (or any Company, for that matter) have to fix problems with it´s product, when it is already paid in full by the customer?
    I can answer it: None!

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    George1

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  George1 on Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:58 am

    Shipbuilding firm Almaz has received contracts for the icebreaker project 21180M and two patrol ships

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3143708.html


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