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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:48 am

    '
    Sevmash Shipyard undergoing overhaul

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/103004/

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    franco

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  franco on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:53 pm

    Apparently having problems with the Chinese engines for the rest of the 21631;

    http://in24.org/technology/30630
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:33 am


    Holding company AK Bars to create shipbuilding corporation

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3093923.html


    Something about aircraft carriers inside so have at it...
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:19 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Holding company AK Bars to create shipbuilding corporation

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3093923.html


    Something about aircraft carriers inside so have at it...

    Going by what this says they aren't building a new shipuard maybe adding a new section onto one.

    However even if they do this it will take years to finish and even longer to build the AC.

    This honestly changes nothing at this time, just in the future they may have two shipyards capable of building AC's.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:09 am

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/103904/

    The Assembly of the sections of the dock complex "Star»

    par far

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    Russian Navy:Problems with Soviet Ship upgrade s

    Post  par far on Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:23 pm

    This is just because that the Navy has not received the attention that the Ground Forces and the Air Force did or is this just a crap article.

    https://southfront.org/russian-navy-problems-with-soviet-ship-upgrades/

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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:00 am

    Crap or not, he does raise a point that contractors aren't punished when they utterly fail to fulfill it. The other good point is that these shipyards are wasting money and manpower on inconsequential support vessels instead of concentrating on the submarine repair contracts that they consistently fail to uphold.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:51 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Crap or not, he does raise a point that contractors aren't punished when they utterly fail to fulfill it. The other good point is that these shipyards are wasting money and manpower on inconsequential support vessels instead of concentrating on the submarine repair contracts that they consistently fail to uphold.

    Actually, as of two years ago, military industrial complexes are being sued by Russian MoD. Almaz Antey being one of them due to the failures of the Redut system.
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  ZoA on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:26 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Crap or not, he does raise a point that contractors aren't punished when they utterly fail to fulfill it. The other good point is that these shipyards are wasting money and manpower on inconsequential support vessels instead of concentrating on the submarine repair contracts that they consistently fail to uphold.

    Actually, as of two years ago, military industrial complexes are being sued by Russian MoD.  Almaz Antey being one of them due to the failures of the Redut system.

    Suing corporations as legal entities is probably not good enough. There must be personal individual liability of top management that must face prison time if through their incompetence, negligence or sabotage they undermine nation's defence and security.

    Honestly I think much of it is deliberate sabotage. We recently had report about that steel in industry oligarch that eloped to Ukraine after apparently deliberately sabotaging his own enterprise that was contracted to supply key components for Russian naval construction programs. I'd bet he is not the only one of the oligarchs or state enterprise managers  that is on some kind of quid pro quo arrangement with NATO intelligence services to wreck Russian rearmament programs.

    Peŕrier

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    Putting aside inefficiencies and problems with supply chains, russian MOD's pretending to pay just for buildings' costs plus a small profit margin is blatantly out of the world.

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:11 am

    Putting aside inefficiencies and problems with supply chains, russian MOD's pretending to pay just for buildings' costs plus a small profit margin is blatantly out of the world.

    Nowadays, if a project requires X millions or billions, currency at will, in recapitalization of building's infrastructure, MODs have to pay for it 100% even those new infrastructures will enable yards to compete and get private's contracts in the future.

    It works that way in the hole world, and there is no way on Earth russian shipbuilding industry could be an exception.

    Again, the political drive to grant contracts to large, almost state-owned enterprises to keep  workforce employed should cease without exceptions: either a yard could deliver to the same standards of a lorean or japanese yard, not even a subsidized west european one, or it should die.

    If tens of thousands of workers and technicians would loose their jobs, let be it.

    Either they are able to secure a new job with more efficient yards, if necessary moving thousands of miles from their home towns to secure a new job, or they will be fucked up for good and for ever.

    Until granting secure jobs to get political consensus will be a priority, big managers will know they have little to fear bar blatantly corruption. And there are infinite ways to line own pockets far before falling in the blatant corruption's schemes, just exploiting the need to maintain an enterprise on business for the sake of the social and political stability.

    Take just a look at what a modern, private yard's innards look like, as in the case of Pella, and then compare it with the prehistoric pile of junk that most of the big yards still are: first they needs billions to modernize their infrastructures, and it is the State's balance sheet that has to fully pay for it, whether you like it or not.

    Secondly, to assure those money don't get wasted, there should be no way on Earth a yard, an enterprise could grant its workload through political needs and connections.

    It has to be a 100%, inhumane capitalistic venture: either you succeed into delivering better than all and any of your competitors, or you are left dying without the slightest lifeline thrown to you.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:39 am

    You are aware it was exactly that, that brought these shipyards to their knees and almost destroyed all of Russia's shipbuilding industry.

    I think after Zvezda shipyard, they will ascess the situation and see how well it will work out. If it works great, they may start to redo a lot other key shipyards.

    Pella I think is private, and also very effective.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:40 am

    miketheterrible wrote:.....
    Pella I think is private, and also very effective.

    Effective is an understatement

    Someone should​ just email them blueprints for Derzkii-class​ and let them go to town...
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:43 am

    Yeah, due to their effectiveness, they should just be given far more contracts. Maybe even sell them some existing, under performing shipyards too.
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  ZoA on Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:18 pm

    Peŕrier wrote:Putting aside inefficiencies and problems with supply chains, russian MOD's pretending to pay just for buildings' costs plus a small profit margin is blatantly out of the world.
    ...

    Again, the political drive to grant contracts to large, almost state-owned enterprises to keep  workforce employed should cease without exceptions: either a yard could deliver to the same standards of a lorean or japanese yard, not even a subsidized west european one, or it should die.

    If tens of thousands of workers and technicians would loose their jobs, let be it.

    Either they are able to secure a new job with more efficient yards, if necessary moving thousands of miles from their home towns to secure a new job, or they will be fucked up for good and for ever.

    ...

    It has to be a 100%, inhumane capitalistic venture: either you succeed into delivering better than all and any of your competitors, or you are left dying without the slightest lifeline thrown to you.

    This is utter libertarian nonsense, very definition of throwing the baby with the bathwater. Why would you disband entire shipyards, dismiss thousands of skilled labourers and sell their equipment at liquidation prices when those same shipyards could be put in order by simply purging handful of incompetent, corrupt or seditious managers.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:24 pm

    Hi guys.
    The problem is, that the Navy receives less money than the Army or Air Force, but there programs are more expensive.
    If the Air Force has to relocated it´s Budget, they order a few planes less. Let´s say just 10 - 12 Su-30SM´s instead of 14 or 15. Result: the program slipps a few month. Nothing more. You will barely notice it, because there are a new planes coming all the time. A ship costs more than a few planes and it´s construction is more complicated. A few bucks less and the hole thing will slip a year or even more.
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  ZoA on Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:.....
    Pella I think is private, and also very effective.

    Effective is an understatement

    Someone should​ just email them blueprints for Derzkii-class​ and let them go to town...

    I understand this is a joke but honestly seems Pella is booked to capacity as is, and it's facilities are for smaller displacement ships, not really suitable for building frigates and larger. However offering to some of Pella's mangers to take control of under performing shipyards might be beneficial. Although I strongly suspect all those endless delays in other shipyards might have more to do with deliberate obstructionisms and wrecking then just incompetence.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:49 pm

    ZoA wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:Putting aside inefficiencies and problems with supply chains, russian MOD's pretending to pay just for buildings' costs plus a small profit margin is blatantly out of the world.
    ...

    Again, the political drive to grant contracts to large, almost state-owned enterprises to keep  workforce employed should cease without exceptions: either a yard could deliver to the same standards of a lorean or japanese yard, not even a subsidized west european one, or it should die.

    If tens of thousands of workers and technicians would loose their jobs, let be it.

    Either they are able to secure a new job with more efficient yards, if necessary moving thousands of miles from their home towns to secure a new job, or they will be fucked up for good and for ever.

    ...

    It has to be a 100%, inhumane capitalistic venture: either you succeed into delivering better than all and any of your competitors, or you are left dying without the slightest lifeline thrown to you.

    This is utter libertarian nonsense, very definition of throwing the baby with the bathwater. Why would you disband entire shipyards, dismiss thousands of skilled labourers and sell their equipment at liquidation prices when those same shipyards could be put in order by simply purging handful of incompetent, corrupt or seditious managers.

    Then just keep talking about alleged sabotage any and every single time things don't work out as expected.
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    ZoA

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  ZoA on Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:21 am

    Peŕrier wrote:
    Then just keep talking about alleged sabotage any and every single time things don't work out as expected.

    Yess... and shutting down shipyards will make them produce more ships and do it faster.. perfect logic indeed. Libertarians... dunno
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  kvs on Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:17 am

    Ship building is just not a priority for Russia. Its focus is land based components such as the air force and ground forces.
    At least Russian ship yards are busy and gradually retooling. By 2025 they will be more capable of producing better
    ships. This will involve having better trained workers and better management. Trying to build everything now is just
    absurd. Russia is better off taking it slow.

    As for the looming war threat from NATO. That is a job for nuclear weapons and not conventional forces.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:21 am

    Of course some of the delays and problems could not possibly be because the new ships they are building are a lot more complicated and advanced than any they had ever built before...
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:06 pm

    This isn't very stocking I expected them to delay the ships still a delay by four years right off the bat? welp that's russian shipbuilding industry for you.

    This is just an icebreaker with some weapons that are hardly advanced and they have built icebreakers before in recent years so to say the delays are because "They are advanced ships" is nothing but fanboyism., no shipyards but one the russians own is undergoing any real heavy modernization. So that is a mere excuse there,

    This is hardly shocking the Russians have shown themselves very incompetent when it comes to ship building.

    They really need to take the management staff and shoot them in a public setting send a message to the others, because at this point this is just criminal. Once heads start rolling things would improve somewhat.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:07 pm

    Let´s say the Russian Navy had allocated 25 Mio. bucks for that ship in 2018. Now they have only 10 Mio. because they prioritize Coastal Missile Systems. Result: the work will procede slower. And it´s a ship, so you can´t just build something here or there and finish the rest next year. They have to wait, therefore the timeline is getting longer.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:08 pm

    Hole wrote:Let´s say the Russian Navy had allocated 25 Mio. bucks for that ship in 2018. Now they have only 10 Mio. because they prioritize Coastal Missile Systems. Result: the work will procede slower. And it´s a ship, so you can´t just build something here or there and finish the rest next year. They have to wait, therefore the timeline is getting longer.

    Except they pay for the ship beforehand and everything else....so the shipyard was already paid to make the vessel so the budget means nothing here. Grasping at straws with a point that literally is wrong.

    Do not make excuses for the shipyard.

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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:07 pm

    Paid before? Are you serious? It´s not a car. The customer pays a few Million to get the construction started, after that there are payments for different stages until the rest ist paid after the completion of the ship.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:01 am

    ZoA wrote:
    Peŕrier wrote:
    Then just keep talking about alleged sabotage any and every single time things don't work out as expected.

    Yess... and shutting down shipyards will make them produce more ships and do it faster.. perfect logic indeed. Libertarians... dunno

    Even jailing some top manager here and there won't improve a lot yards performances.

    There is a great need for facilities recapitalization: i.e. large investments on modern infrastructures, modern machines, modern tooling, modern design techniques, and of course a workforce trained to work in the new environment.

    Here comes problem number one: russian MoD did ot spare money to enable UAC to purchase everything it needed, from CAD to modern CNC multiaxis machines produced in Germany, Japan, South Korea, Italy and so on. It just takes a look at some pictures of today's workshops os Sukhoi or Yakovlev to get a parade of the most modern tooling machines available in the last ten years in the world's market.

    Nothing similar has been performed for the sake of the shipbuilding industry, most of them are more or less technically speaking stuck in the late 80ies, with the added problem of a supply chain that almost stopped to work altogether for a decade or more.

    Pretending any kind of performance in such conditions is just that: a groundless pretense.

    It is not by chance that the only yards still producing at reasonable pace are those two or three that never stopped to work because filled with export orders in the 90ies.

    Any other yard is simply in total disarray, unable both to build at a reasonable speed and unable to modernize its infrastructure.

    The new yard under construction will solve many problems, but some questions arise about what utility is left of many other yards kept artificially afloat by some small order here and there.

    There is no reason, bar for secure political consensus among local community, to share orders for the very same type of ships between three or more yards, when at best just one of them is able to build them in a reasonable time with a reasonable quality of the end product. Building a ship is always a learning process, providing a robust order to one specific yard, the one best suited, grant a better final result, shorter building times in the long run, and enable the yard's management to make investments in yard's modernization having a solid order book.

    The second problem comes with the role of political consensus maker that comes with such random orders to any yard needing to build whatever to stay afloat: management know perfectly what is their real, political role, and will always find ways to pursue their own, personal interests (as individuals, not as management boards) as long as doing so is securing that political consensus.

    There is little hope that investing big money in such an environment would return the expected results: management boards should have the threat of loosing everything if they fail, and the whole workforce and the local community as well, if they mismanage funds granted to them.

    If the 30 years experience team leader should suffer the humiliation to be replaced and even supervised by some new guy just 30 years old that know everything about the most modern naval technology, let him be humiliated: nothing on Earth, not even being befriended with the whole Navy HQ, should allow him to conserve its position and its power, nor any tolerance should there be for any kind of resistance against the new guy.

    And the same should be applied at any level, from the top manager down to the last worker.

    The most skilled should get the position requiring those specific skills, whoever is no longer able to perform as required has three options: improve its skills, accept to be downgraded, or leave the yard altogether.

    And if the yard as a whole is unable to conform to such rules, it has to be killed and the local community has to pay the price for it: modern day boyars should be seen by the local community as public enemies, not like some untouchable little godfather providing you with salaries and community's welfare.

    It is not jailing someone time to time the answer, it is reverting 180 degrees the power relation between local community on one side and local politicians, managers and all levels of the workforce on the other side: if the latter are not up the job, the local community first should have the freedom and the protection of the law and of the higher authorities, to ban them.

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