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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

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    sepheronx
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:23 am

    thanks for the link on the marine grade steel maker.  Are they the only marine grade steelmaker in Russia?  Maybe reason for their lack of trade with India over the steel is the fact that now orders are magnitude greater? It mentions the commissioning of a new plant in 2009 so I imagine this is an addition to what they already have?  

    Do you happen to know who makes the composite structure for the Goshkovs and other new ships in Russia?  I imagine that will be the big one for the future for all ship developments.

    Add to that, India will say one thing, but we need to remember (I know this through my wife whom is from India), everything in India has to be made in India now.  Or at least a huge portion of it.  And India was also a major pain in dealing with cause they will nickle and dime everything.  Russia didn't have problems in supplying elsewhere but to some countries like India so it is somewhat safe to assume that has a part of it.  Apparently Russia can be hard to bargain with too (not surprising really).

    30 shipyards is ridiculous amount for Russia.  At the time of the Soviet union, I imagine with all the amount of shipyards were needed for building small ships for border patrol and navy.  There are a few shipyards that rely on building transport ships for rivers and seas.  Ones for Oceans and shipyards for platforms and floating cranes.  Only a few seem to get orders for larger ships and such.  Tatarstan for instance builds specific ships for the Caspian sea.  I imagine in the future, the number will shrink to a few large shipyards and a bunch of smaller shipyards for mostly civil orders and military orders of specific use (transport).  Rest will be like Sevmash, Admirality (SP?), Vyborg, and Zvezda.

    And uh, now they got the one in Crimea.  More shipyards definitely than what they need.  Wonders of Soviet times I suppose.

    Dunno about your last statement. Kinda odd since Russia had built quite a few submarines, surface ships like transport and navy, and icebreakers. Most asian shipyards do not. So I really question that.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:35 am

    sepheronx wrote:thanks for the link on the marine grade steel maker.  Are they the only marine grade steelmaker in Russia?  Maybe reason for their lack of trade with India over the steel is the fact that now orders are magnitude greater? It mentions the commissioning of a new plant in 2009 so I imagine this is an addition to what they already have?  

    Do you happen to know who makes the composite structure for the Goshkovs and other new ships in Russia?  I imagine that will be the big one for the future for all ship developments.

    Add to that, India will say one thing, but we need to remember (I know this through my wife whom is from India), everything in India has to be made in India now.  Or at least a huge portion of it.  And India was also a major pain in dealing with cause they will nickle and dime everything.  Russia didn't have problems in supplying elsewhere but to some countries like India so it is somewhat safe to assume that has a part of it.  Apparently Russia can be hard to bargain with too (not surprising really).

    30 shipyards is ridiculous amount for Russia.  At the time of the Soviet union, I imagine with all the amount of shipyards were needed for building small ships for border patrol and navy.  There are a few shipyards that rely on building transport ships for rivers and seas.  Ones for Oceans and shipyards for platforms and floating cranes.  Only a few seem to get orders for larger ships and such.  Tatarstan for instance builds specific ships for the Caspian sea.  I imagine in the future, the number will shrink to a few large shipyards and a bunch of smaller shipyards for mostly civil orders and military orders of specific use (transport).  Rest will be like Sevmash, Admirality (SP?), Vyborg, and Zvezda.

    And uh, now they got the one in Crimea.  More shipyards definitely than what they need.  Wonders of Soviet times I suppose.

    Dunno about your last statement.  Kinda odd since Russia had built quite a few submarines, surface ships like transport and navy, and icebreakers.  Most asian shipyards do not.  So I really question that.

    I for sure know Severstal producing AK marine steel which is special cold resistant steel about http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/114409/severstals-cherepovets-mill-doubles-steel-shipments-to-shipbuilders-russia/ and RM Steel http://www.rm-steel.com/en/.

    http://lipetsk.nlmk.com/StandardPage____1091.aspx Novolipetsk is known for obtaining certificate for some AB steels but are they producing it i would not know.

    When its about Gorshkov i am not sure who produced hull sections and materials for hull sections that are covered or completely made out of carbon, however i am aware who is working on developing of such solutions for shipbuilding http://www.crism-prometey.ru/eng/starteng.htm. I mean major composite producing company to my knowledge started working in 2011. in Russia Prepreg-SKM. Could be that "raw" carbon was imported and then shaped on spot by specifications etc provided by Prometey.

    However this looks very promising when its about new composite materials and carbon fiber: http://www.materialstoday.com/carbon-fiber/news/new-carbon-fiber-production-plant-in-russia/

    Yes India has that "Buy and produce in India" politic which i really like and admire, even tho they often get stuck that way, taking decade to absorb new technologies...sometimes you wonder.

    "The Geoje Shipyard in particular, SHI's largest shipyard in South Korea, boasts the highest dock turnover rate in the world. The largest of the three docks, Dock No. 3, is 640 meters long, 97.5 meters wide, and 13 meters deep. Mostly ultra-large ships are built at this dock, having the world's highest production efficiency with yearly dock turnover rate of 10 and the launch of 30 ships per year" - insane, just, insane.
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    Russian shipbuilding industry

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:43 am

    Korea has a very impressive shipyard industry. One of the best, if not, in the world. Even China is interested in S.Korean Tech. Even Russia was interested in S.Korea's investments in shipbuilding, but S.Korea pulled out of Zvezda due to poor output in their own due to world economic performance.

    As for the other info, thanks. I imagine in the future, with the building of the Gorshkov and other future ships (I hope the Project 22800 will be full composite hull) will allow russia to compete in high strength, lower weight ships. It is a good investment.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:29 pm

    Trutnev told Putin about the pace of the construction of the shipyard "Zvezda"

    Presidential Envoy to the Far Eastern Federal District, noted the slow pace of work on the construction of the plant "Zvezda", which specializes in the repair, refurbishment and modernization of ships and nuclear submarines.

    VLADIVOSTOK, November 19 - RIA Novosti, Nadezhda Egorova. RF Presidential Plenipotentiary in the Far Eastern Federal District Yuri Trutnev at the meeting in Vladivostok, said that he was dissatisfied with the pace of construction shipyard "Zvezda" in the Maritime region, as reported by the country's president, Vladimir Putin.

    "There are instructed Putin to build a shipbuilding complex, a number of points of order dates from the late 2015 th - 2016. At this time, it is necessary to have to execute it. I have a number of comments to the ministries. They have a little bit of time that the work is done, but most of assignments connected with the actualization of the order relating to the coordination of the work is slow. I'm going about it to make a report to the Prime Minister, the President of Russia. I suggested that the question of creating a shipbuilding industry to review in mid-December on pravkomisii under the leadership of Medvedev " - Trutnev said.

    OJSC "Far East Plant" Zvezda "- the leading enterprise on repair of submarines of the Pacific Fleet and the only one in the Far East, specializing in the repair, refurbishing and modernizing ships and nuclear submarines.

    On behalf of the President of the Russian consortium of companies "Rosneft" and Gazprombank in the face of the joint venture ZAO "Modern Shipbuilding Technology" (JSC "STS") creates the Far East industrial and shipbuilding cluster on the basis of OAO "Far Eastern Center of Shipbuilding and Ship Repair" (FECSR), the core which will be the new shipbuilding complex "Star" in the town of Bolshoi Kamen.


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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:58 pm

    Zvezda Shipyard should be built despite declining hydrocarbons prices — Russian Deputy PM


    The articles are strange. It makes it sound like that they are cutting back on the project but they are not. So I am not sure about the translations in the titles.  Even the articles themselves state project is ongoing in three stages.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:03 pm

    http://tass.ru/en/society/841960

    So there was an explosion at the st.pete shipyard due to poor safety practice of welding while painting....  minimum damage to infrastructure, equipment ect but 1 died and 7 injured.

    Seems to be a common problem with Russian inudstries and poor safety practices even though they had so many incidences and many were fired for it.  Seems everyone loves to skimp out on doing the job properly.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:14 pm

    sepheronx wrote:http://tass.ru/en/society/841960

    So there was an explosion at the st.pete shipyard due to poor safety practice of welding while painting....  minimum damage to infrastructure, equipment ect but 1 died and 7 injured.

    Seems to be a common problem with Russian inudstries and poor safety practices even though they had so many incidences and many were fired for it.  Seems everyone loves to skimp out on doing the job properly.

    Welding and painting at the same time, just read this to my dad "over shoulder" and he said he never heard of such practice in his life (military mechanical engineer).
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:20 pm

    Then there clearly is an issue with the people at these shipyards. Time to clean house. Maybe also start with more adaptove safety systems like having a separate team for it that monitors the work practices of the people.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:28 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Then there clearly is an issue with the people at these shipyards. Time to clean house. Maybe also start with more adaptove safety systems like having a separate team for it that monitors the work practices of the people.

    I dont know, it might be something considered as ok in shipyards, due to magnitude of the work etc, as my dad said even doing welding works on one side of the hull and painting on other wouldnt be a problem, especially with safety measues, however doing it in a way where they can come in contact is everything but smart.

    He says when tanks are being overhauled, painting section is always separated from mechanical area due to welding, tooling, sparks, hot pieces of metal etc. And firefighter is always somewhere around just in case. Was like that 35 years ago in Yugoslavia and we can say safety procedures were not really first priority back then ago as they are now.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:47 pm

    Heads need to roll.  I am not a welder but I know not to do this.  Whoever sanctioned the idea for it should be on the streets sweeping and manager in charge should be accompanying him.  Really really retarded.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  kvs on Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:58 am

    I don't like sounding like a one-note Johnny, but I would not be surprised by 5th column activity.   Obama was boasting how
    there will be costs for Russia for "meddling in Ukraine" (total blood libel hypocrisy from Uncle Scam).   So why wouldn't the
    US pay some retards to disrupt Russia's economy.   This incident is likely small potatoes compared to some other sabotage
    under way.  The problem with Russia is that there are 5% (including many of the middle and upper class, who would be
    in management) who are outright 5th column scum that want to sell Russia down the river.  

    Some things are just too obvious to be avoided under normal circumstances such as painting and welding.  Clearly Russia
    is not disorganized to the extent that it is a 3rd world toilet.   So why do you get these cases at all?   My claim is that this
    is the same as the hammering of the key sensors on the Proton backwards leading to the epic crash.   Uncle Scam can throw
    billions of dollars around to both damage Russia and to keep its propaganda narratives alive.

    Then there is the Russian problem of an underdeveloped legal system.   There needs to be active civil case litigation.  The
    families of the victims should be able to sue the management for every cent, for free.   It should not be up to some prosecutor's
    office to pursue every case.   They simply can't.  Grass roots action under the umbrella of the law is the best policing mechanism.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:26 am



    New floating dock/dock-transport Svyaga (Project 22570) entered into service. Home port-Severodvinsk.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:12 am

    "The Rubin Design Bureau and Krylov State Research Center will start developing a prototype submarine air-independent propulsion (AIP) plant and an associated floating test bench, Igor Landgraf, deputy director/chief designer of Krylov’s affiliate TsNII SET said. According to Landgraf, the Russian Industry and Trade Ministry is considering Rubin and Krylov’s proposal for the Development of an AIP Plant Prototype and an Associated Floating Test Bench development work. The proposal had resulted from a resolution by the September 12, 2015 governmental meeting chaired by Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin. The proposal was approved by the Russian Navy’s leading research institute. The work is designed for four years from 2016. Given the scale and urgency of the task assigned, the financing requested under the program totals several billion rubles.

    "We are waiting for the proposal to be approved and the financing hashed out," the deputy director said, "and the Russian Industry and Trade Ministry was tasked with getting the money to pay for the program. Therefore, I think it will take place." Rubin, which completed the research into the land-based AIP plant prototype in December 2014, will be prime contractor, while Krylov’s TsNII SET affiliate is to develop, manufacture and supply an electrochemical generator with a capacity of several hundred kilowatt for the in-development AIP plant prototype, with the generator to "consist of polyethylene fuel cell-based stacks with a unit power of 50kW."



    The prototype of the afore-said BTE-50K fuel cell-based stack was designed, made, tested and submitted to the customer, the Russian Industry and Trade Ministry, under the Krylov-performed AIP Plant with Oxidation Product Disposal development work in 2011-2015. The acceptance trials of the BTE-50K - the most effective Russian-made fuel cell-based stack - were completed with success in March 2015, and the customer accepted the example. To display Krylov’s progress in hydrogen power generation and fuel cells, a BTE-50K analog designed for commercial applications was exhibited at several shows and got good press," Landgraf said. "Now, Rubin and we have a clear-eyed understanding of the way to follow to develop a highly effective AIP plant as soon as possible," the chief designer stressed. "We also realize that advanced diesel-electric submarines are plain inconceivable unless equipped with AIP plants. AIP plants are needed both by the Russian Navy and the navies of many countries, with which we maintain partnership relations and that are our potential customers."

    According to Landgraf’s estimates, if the financing starts in 2016, the AIP plant’s test on the floating test bench will start in 2018 at the earliest. Krylov’s Executive Director Mikhail Zagorodnikov, in turn, said the lack of AIP plants onboard Russian diesel-electric submarines might deny them demand on the global naval arms market. "China and the Republic of Korea build diesel-electric AIP submarines. India is beginning to make [such] boats of its own in cooperation with the French. We will miss the market, unless we develop an AIP plant," Zagorodnikov stressed."


    Source: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3343
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:19 pm

    "Saturn" completed the first stage of development work!
    "Saturn" completed the first stage of development work on the creation of three marine gas turbine engines M-90FR, DKVP unit and M-70FRU reverse, which must be equipped with a completely new Russian warships.
    "We expect that by the end of December this year," Saturn "will report to us on the implementation and the second phase of this work, - said the director of the Department of Shipbuilding Industry of Maxim Kochetkov. - By the beginning of 2017 all gas turbine engines have to be designed and manufactured the first prototypes, which are sent to the test. A 2018 scheduled delivery of these units on the ships for our navy. " This project has the highest priority in the program of import substitution in the domestic defense industry, and his success literally depends on the readiness of at least a half dozen under construction and projected frigates, corvettes, cruisers and amphibious ships.

    Militarov wrote:"The Rubin Design Bureau and Krylov State Research Center will start developing a prototype submarine air-independent propulsion (AIP) plant and an associated floating test bench, Igor Landgraf, deputy director/chief designer of Krylov’s affiliate TsNII SET said. According to Landgraf, the Russian Industry and Trade Ministry is considering Rubin and Krylov’s proposal for the Development of an AIP Plant Prototype and an Associated Floating Test Bench development work. The proposal had resulted from a resolution by the September 12, 2015 governmental meeting chaired by Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin. The proposal was approved by the Russian Navy’s leading research institute. The work is designed for four years from 2016. Given the scale and urgency of the task assigned, the financing requested under the program totals several billion rubles.

    "We are waiting for the proposal to be approved and the financing hashed out," the deputy director said, "and the Russian Industry and Trade Ministry was tasked with getting the money to pay for the program. Therefore, I think it will take place." Rubin, which completed the research into the land-based AIP plant prototype in December 2014, will be prime contractor, while Krylov’s TsNII SET affiliate is to develop, manufacture and supply an electrochemical generator with a capacity of several hundred kilowatt for the in-development AIP plant prototype, with the generator to "consist of polyethylene fuel cell-based stacks with a unit power of 50kW."



    The prototype of the afore-said BTE-50K fuel cell-based stack was designed, made, tested and submitted to the customer, the Russian Industry and Trade Ministry, under the Krylov-performed AIP Plant with Oxidation Product Disposal development work in 2011-2015. The acceptance trials of the BTE-50K - the most effective Russian-made fuel cell-based stack - were completed with success in March 2015, and the customer accepted the example. To display Krylov’s progress in hydrogen power generation and fuel cells, a BTE-50K analog designed for commercial applications was exhibited at several shows and got good press," Landgraf said. "Now, Rubin and we have a clear-eyed understanding of the way to follow to develop a highly effective AIP plant as soon as possible," the chief designer stressed. "We also realize that advanced diesel-electric submarines are plain inconceivable unless equipped with AIP plants. AIP plants are needed both by the Russian Navy and the navies of many countries, with which we maintain partnership relations and that are our potential customers."

    According to Landgraf’s estimates, if the financing starts in 2016, the AIP plant’s test on the floating test bench will start in 2018 at the earliest. Krylov’s Executive Director Mikhail Zagorodnikov, in turn, said the lack of AIP plants onboard Russian diesel-electric submarines might deny them demand on the global naval arms market. "China and the Republic of Korea build diesel-electric AIP submarines. India is beginning to make [such] boats of its own in cooperation with the French. We will miss the market, unless we develop an AIP plant," Zagorodnikov stressed."


    Source: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3343

    China has an AIP system of their own? Same with S.Korea?  I thought that was mainly France and Germany that had it.

    And why it would take Russia longer to produce one? I thought they already had one on their Lada submarine (which is AIP as well)? Unless this is all brand new technology cause I see them mention Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which gives me indication that this is a whole new system.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:31 am

    sepheronx wrote:And why it would take Russia longer to produce one?  I thought they already had one on their Lada submarine (which is AIP as well)?  Unless this is all brand new technology cause I see them mention Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which gives me indication that this is a whole new system.

    The development of the Lada-class was troubled.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:04 am

    sepheronx wrote:

    Militarov wrote:"The Rubin Design Bureau and Krylov State Research Center will start developing a prototype submarine air-independent propulsion (AIP) plant and an associated floating test bench, Igor Landgraf, deputy director/chief designer of Krylov’s affiliate TsNII SET said. According to Landgraf, the Russian Industry and Trade Ministry is considering Rubin and Krylov’s proposal for the Development of an AIP Plant Prototype and an Associated Floating Test Bench development work. The proposal had resulted from a resolution by the September 12, 2015 governmental meeting chaired by Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin. The proposal was approved by the Russian Navy’s leading research institute. The work is designed for four years from 2016. Given the scale and urgency of the task assigned, the financing requested under the program totals several billion rubles.

    "We are waiting for the proposal to be approved and the financing hashed out," the deputy director said, "and the Russian Industry and Trade Ministry was tasked with getting the money to pay for the program. Therefore, I think it will take place." Rubin, which completed the research into the land-based AIP plant prototype in December 2014, will be prime contractor, while Krylov’s TsNII SET affiliate is to develop, manufacture and supply an electrochemical generator with a capacity of several hundred kilowatt for the in-development AIP plant prototype, with the generator to "consist of polyethylene fuel cell-based stacks with a unit power of 50kW."

    The prototype of the afore-said BTE-50K fuel cell-based stack was designed, made, tested and submitted to the customer, the Russian Industry and Trade Ministry, under the Krylov-performed AIP Plant with Oxidation Product Disposal development work in 2011-2015. The acceptance trials of the BTE-50K - the most effective Russian-made fuel cell-based stack - were completed with success in March 2015, and the customer accepted the example. To display Krylov’s progress in hydrogen power generation and fuel cells, a BTE-50K analog designed for commercial applications was exhibited at several shows and got good press," Landgraf said. "Now, Rubin and we have a clear-eyed understanding of the way to follow to develop a highly effective AIP plant as soon as possible," the chief designer stressed. "We also realize that advanced diesel-electric submarines are plain inconceivable unless equipped with AIP plants. AIP plants are needed both by the Russian Navy and the navies of many countries, with which we maintain partnership relations and that are our potential customers."

    According to Landgraf’s estimates, if the financing starts in 2016, the AIP plant’s test on the floating test bench will start in 2018 at the earliest. Krylov’s Executive Director Mikhail Zagorodnikov, in turn, said the lack of AIP plants onboard Russian diesel-electric submarines might deny them demand on the global naval arms market. "China and the Republic of Korea build diesel-electric AIP submarines. India is beginning to make [such] boats of its own in cooperation with the French. We will miss the market, unless we develop an AIP plant," Zagorodnikov stressed."


    Source: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3343

    China has an AIP system of their own? Same with S.Korea?  I thought that was mainly France and Germany that had it.

    And why it would take Russia longer to produce one?  I thought they already had one on their Lada submarine (which is AIP as well)?  Unless this is all brand new technology cause I see them mention Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which gives me indication that this is a whole new system.

    Yeah China has AIP on Type 039A subs sometimes refered to as Type 41A, but its stirling AIP not fuel cell. Stirling engine solution burns diesel and liquid oxigen, and its combusted on very high pressure (higher than surrounding water) so it still can push the exaust gases outside, this kinda limits maximum depth to somewhat about 200m. Meanwhlie it can directly supply electricity to all systems or charge batteries.

    "Stirling engines are often compared to reciprocating steam engines, in that they employ a piston-cylinder assembly, but they differ fundamentally, in that the working fluid in the engine is sealed and separated from the heat source, in a closed cycle arrangement. Heat is provided to the Stirling engine by the external combustion of a fuel and oxidiser"

    Japan based their AIP subs Sōryū on Swedish Stirling AIP solution built by Kockums Naval Solutions (SAAB) simply by getting licence. Swedes did this like 2 decades ago basically, so all theirs subs were modified including two that were sold to Singapure to feature AIP.

    When its about South Korea they operate Type 214 which for i belive Hyundai Heavy Industries got "licence".


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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:08 pm

    Russia's Rosneft will invest $2 bln into Zvezda Shipyard — CEO
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  kvs on Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:16 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:

    China has an AIP system of their own? Same with S.Korea?  I thought that was mainly France and Germany that had it.

    And why it would take Russia longer to produce one?  I thought they already had one on their Lada submarine (which is AIP as well)?  Unless this is all brand new technology cause I see them mention Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which gives me indication that this is a whole new system.

    Yeah China has AIP on Type 039A subs sometimes refered to as Type 41A, but its stirling AIP  not fuel cell. Stirling engine solution burns diesel and liquid oxigen, and its combusted on very high pressure (higher than surrounding water) so it still can push the exaust gases outside, this kinda limits maximum depth to somewhat about 200m. Meanwhlie it can directly supply electricity to all systems or charge batteries.

    "Stirling engines are often compared to reciprocating steam engines, in that they employ a piston-cylinder assembly, but they differ fundamentally, in that the working fluid in the engine is sealed and separated from the heat source, in a closed cycle arrangement. Heat is provided to the Stirling engine by the external combustion of a fuel and oxidiser"

    Japan based their AIP subs Sōryū on Swedish Stirling AIP solution built by Kockums Naval Solutions (SAAB) simply by getting licence. Swedes did this like 2 decades ago basically, so all theirs subs were modified including two that were sold to Singapure to feature AIP.

    When its about South Korea they operate Type 214 which for i belive Hyundai Heavy Industries got "licence".



    So as usual Russian officials spout off like drama queens with totally unnecessary tint of crisis and "we can never get it right" defeatism.
    All of the competition is running Stirling AIP, but you wouldn't know it from these Russian idiot officials. Probably because they don't
    know the difference even though it is their f*cking job to know it.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:01 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:

    China has an AIP system of their own? Same with S.Korea?  I thought that was mainly France and Germany that had it.

    And why it would take Russia longer to produce one?  I thought they already had one on their Lada submarine (which is AIP as well)?  Unless this is all brand new technology cause I see them mention Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which gives me indication that this is a whole new system.

    Yeah China has AIP on Type 039A subs sometimes refered to as Type 41A, but its stirling AIP  not fuel cell. Stirling engine solution burns diesel and liquid oxigen, and its combusted on very high pressure (higher than surrounding water) so it still can push the exaust gases outside, this kinda limits maximum depth to somewhat about 200m. Meanwhlie it can directly supply electricity to all systems or charge batteries.

    "Stirling engines are often compared to reciprocating steam engines, in that they employ a piston-cylinder assembly, but they differ fundamentally, in that the working fluid in the engine is sealed and separated from the heat source, in a closed cycle arrangement. Heat is provided to the Stirling engine by the external combustion of a fuel and oxidiser"

    Japan based their AIP subs Sōryū on Swedish Stirling AIP solution built by Kockums Naval Solutions (SAAB) simply by getting licence. Swedes did this like 2 decades ago basically, so all theirs subs were modified including two that were sold to Singapure to feature AIP.

    When its about South Korea they operate Type 214 which for i belive Hyundai Heavy Industries got "licence".



    So as usual Russian officials spout off like drama queens with totally unnecessary tint of crisis and "we can never get it right" defeatism.  
    All of the competition is running Stirling AIP, but you wouldn't know it from these Russian idiot officials.   Probably because they don't
    know the difference even though it is their f*cking job to know it.

    It is possible. Or the other idea is that it is kinda like the idea of mentioning that there is a need to do it (to get money of course) in order to compete but when in reality, the system they are producing is significantly more advanced than what the alternatives are.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:10 am

    China has an AIP system of their own? Same with S.Korea? I thought that was mainly France and Germany that had it.

    And why it would take Russia longer to produce one? I thought they already had one on their Lada submarine (which is AIP as well)? Unless this is all brand new technology cause I see them mention Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which gives me indication that this is a whole new system.

    Russia already has a proven AIP technology... it is called nuclear propulsion.

    the west uses hydrogen membrane AIP where oxygen and hydrogen are used through a membrane that peals off electrons from the hydrogen as it passes through and when it recombines with oxygen and the stripped electrons are added again you have a current flow of electrons and heat. It is fully reversable so if you can surface safely you can apply electricity from a diesel engine and charge the batteries and also produce hydrogen for the AIP at sea.

    The major problems for such a system is that most ports already have the infrastructure to handle diesel or heavy oil for fuels but are not equipped to store and transfer hydrogen.

    The Chinese system... if it is just a sterling engine is just like a diesel engine using stored oxygen... liquid oxygen is a very dangerous substance to carry on a sub which counts against both systems... you simply can't put out an oxygen fire and any fuels immersed in liquid oxygen almost explode in such an oxygen rich environment...

    The Russian system which has passed all its land based tests and just needs field trials in a real boat uses normal diesel... which is available already in pretty much any port around the world already and will be carried by all existing diesel electric submarines... all the piping is already there... in port and on board the vessels. the difference will be adding an AIP section and ensuring the diesel can be pumped into that section.

    From what I have read the Russian system generates more than 5 times more power than hydrogen membrane systems from the west.


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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  max steel on Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:51 am

    A very important news: Northern Shipyard (Severnay Verf) has started a massive modernization program



    The centerpiece of this program is a brand new dry dock with the length of....400 meters. That means only one thing--aircraft carrier(s). Will the time be right for Russian carriers by 2020-2022? I am not in a position to judge but there never were doubts about Russia's blue water aspirations. We'll see. Judging by the tone of news, most of the programs for Russian Navy seem to be financed in full.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Zivo on Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:56 am

    max steel wrote:A very important news: Northern Shipyard (Severnay Verf) has started a massive modernization program



    The centerpiece of this program is a brand new dry dock with the length of....400 meters. That means only one thing--aircraft carrier(s). Will the time be right for Russian carriers by 2020-2022? I am not in a position to judge but there never were doubts about Russia's blue water aspirations. We'll see. Judging by the tone of news, most of the programs for Russian Navy seem to be financed in full.

    Nope, Mega-Kirovs. pirat
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:29 am

    Zivo wrote:
    max steel wrote:A very important news: Northern Shipyard (Severnay Verf) has started a massive modernization program



    The centerpiece of this program is a brand new dry dock with the length of....400 meters. That means only one thing--aircraft carrier(s). Will the time be right for Russian carriers by 2020-2022? I am not in a position to judge but there never were doubts about Russia's blue water aspirations. We'll see. Judging by the tone of news, most of the programs for Russian Navy seem to be financed in full.

    Nope, Mega-Kirovs. pirat

    Oh please tell me you're not joking... This would be amazing.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:29 pm

    max steel wrote:A very important news: Northern Shipyard (Severnay Verf) has started a massive modernization program



    The centerpiece of this program is a brand new dry dock with the length of....400 meters. That means only one thing--aircraft carrier(s). Will the time be right for Russian carriers by 2020-2022? I am not in a position to judge but there never were doubts about Russia's blue water aspirations. We'll see. Judging by the tone of news, most of the programs for Russian Navy seem to be financed in full.

    400m would be good start for Russian shipbuilding, however i cant find anywhere that in text, is that from some other source?
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:33 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:

    China has an AIP system of their own? Same with S.Korea?  I thought that was mainly France and Germany that had it.

    And why it would take Russia longer to produce one?  I thought they already had one on their Lada submarine (which is AIP as well)?  Unless this is all brand new technology cause I see them mention Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which gives me indication that this is a whole new system.

    Yeah China has AIP on Type 039A subs sometimes refered to as Type 41A, but its stirling AIP  not fuel cell. Stirling engine solution burns diesel and liquid oxigen, and its combusted on very high pressure (higher than surrounding water) so it still can push the exaust gases outside, this kinda limits maximum depth to somewhat about 200m. Meanwhlie it can directly supply electricity to all systems or charge batteries.

    "Stirling engines are often compared to reciprocating steam engines, in that they employ a piston-cylinder assembly, but they differ fundamentally, in that the working fluid in the engine is sealed and separated from the heat source, in a closed cycle arrangement. Heat is provided to the Stirling engine by the external combustion of a fuel and oxidiser"

    Japan based their AIP subs Sōryū on Swedish Stirling AIP solution built by Kockums Naval Solutions (SAAB) simply by getting licence. Swedes did this like 2 decades ago basically, so all theirs subs were modified including two that were sold to Singapure to feature AIP.

    When its about South Korea they operate Type 214 which for i belive Hyundai Heavy Industries got "licence".



    So as usual Russian officials spout off like drama queens with totally unnecessary tint of crisis and "we can never get it right" defeatism.  
    All of the competition is running Stirling AIP, but you wouldn't know it from these Russian idiot officials.   Probably because they don't
    know the difference even though it is their f*cking job to know it.

    Officials like drama, doesnt matter if its good or bad. Two types of officials "This new Russian pocket knife has no analogue in the world" and "Our industry is not capable of developing anything, we suck and we should buy stuff from Germany". Depends where they are trying to score points.

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

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