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    Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

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    ExBeobachter1987

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:50 pm

    Dima wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

    None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.
    Sevmash have done a good job with converting 1143.4 to INS Vikramaditya and that is a solid experience under the belt of Europe's largest shipyard.

    Sevmash's work was supposed to be finished in 2008.
    The Vikramaditya was delivered in 2013.
    The conversion was supposed to cost 0,8 billion US-dollar.
    In the end, India had to pay 2,35 billion US-dollar.

    Is that supposed to be good work? Suspect
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    Dima

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Dima on Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:49 am

    Militarov wrote:Sevmash and Zvezda in terms of pure labor, got no clue how to build carrier, let alone super carrier with catapult,  at least not at this moment.
    Really?
    What do you base you opinion on?

    Adapting already existing hull is one thing, building it from scratch is totally different type of job. Can Russian marine engineers in general do it?
    You are mixing things. Sevmash is a shipyard with a limited/in-house design team not covering the entire spectrum of ship design. There are dedicated design houses in Russia and they design subs and ships. A shipyards main business is to built ships according to the documentation/spec supplied by design house/customer.

    Most likely, but it will take quite alot of time, other issue beside lack of experience in building such platforms is lack of propper equipment, Sevmash is not capable to handle ships of such size and weight, even after investments in Zvezda that everyone here is talking about i have significant amount of doubt regarding it building carrier.
    Set aside Zevzda, its not Sevmash.

    Sevmash can barely handle Kuznetsov since its around its maximum projected weight and size of its docks.
    You are kidding my dear!

    The only obstacle Sevmash is having w.r.t to Kuznetsov or new carrier construction is the entry/flood gates to Sevmash basin!!!
    Get this little but very very important fact right!!!
    Once you understand this little stuff you will understand why Sevmash cannot built an aircraft carrier in its basin.

    By God's grace, Project 11430 was lucky as the aircraft carrying cruiser managed to squeeze through the narrow flootgates of Sevmash yard into the basin with barely 1m clearance on either side. It was equally laborious while exiting but it was navigated/tugged in and out by highly skilled/experienced personals without any incident, not even a slightest scratch on the hull.

    Just for info, Pr.1143.4 Kiev class has a max waterline beam of nearly 32 meters where as Pr.1143.7 Kuznetsov has a max waterline beam of nearly 36 meters. Unless the entry is widened there is no chance for Kuznetsov to enter the basin or a new carrier with similar or wider beam to be constructed inside the yard permises. Crane capacity is secondary here as they can even do with piecing together small sections.

    Sevmash with current cranes cant even lift some of the carrier segments, in Mykolaiv they had 1000t cranes, in Russia biggest ones to my knowledge are 550t, lack of docks, lack of skilled workers, lack of cranes,
    Hope you meant Nikolayev South Shipyard. Do you really think lifting capacity of a 1,000t is the baseline capacity that a shipyard needs? Its good to have such a capability, but its not the end of world. The heaviest block that I have seen those cranes lift are the huge superstructure of Pr.1143.4 Baku/Admiral Gorshkov. The large superstructure that we still see on INS Vikramaditya was installed on the deck as a single pre-fabricated block/module during its construction by those two cranes.

    lack of certain (modern) shipbuilding technologies, they slept for 20 years due to bad financial situation, get real and stop chanting "Russia is building carriers in 2018."
    Do you mean to say that Russia cant start constructing a carrier by 2018?

    but supercarrier is faaar from possible in Russia at this moment simply coz of technical reasons, put money aside, they would find money if they really cared to build carrier.
    The first and fore most reason as always is funds and secondary is the dry dock to buit coz the only experienced yard now with carrier construction doesnt have the required dry dock to facilitate construction.

    Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay.
    Sevmash have plenty of outfitting space.
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    Dima

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Dima on Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:54 am



    Check slipway and cranes in major shipyards, they can manage averagely sized tankers at the best.
    Take the dimensions I earlier posted and check once more and you will see a solution. Its just a bottle neck.

    I will explain.
    1) Widen the entry to Sevmash basin/yard. This will be cheaper than constructing a new 400m x 70m dry dock which was earlier planned.
    2) See the capacity of Sevmash 302 x 44m. Its the covered slipway on which n-subs are constructed. Two lines in parallel with common rail for cranes. Downside being obstruction in N-sub construction.
    3) Utilize this installed capacity to built hull sections which will negate the need for heavy lift cranes in the basin or on floating docks.
    4) Float them out into the basin for final assembly, preferrably on a floating dry dock which can be fabricated in Sevmash itself. Each time basin will need to be flooded.
    5) Float the completed hull out of the basin for outfitting to free up the basin.

    All these will depend on the entry/exit, coz we have not advanced enough to see a flying carrier.  Very Happy

    In my humble opinon, its doable and in Sevmash itself but depends on three things - Plan, Resolve & Funds. Everything else comes into place automatically.
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    Dima

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Dima on Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:03 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Dima wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:As well, the sevmesh shipyard is capable. Soon, Zvezda shipyard.

    None of them have experience is building fixed-wing aircraft carriers.
    Sevmash have done a good job with converting 1143.4 to INS Vikramaditya and that is a solid experience under the belt of Europe's largest shipyard.

    Sevmash's work was supposed to be finished in 2008.
    The Vikramaditya was delivered in 2013.
    The conversion was supposed to cost 0,8 billion US-dollar.
    In the end, India had to pay 2,35 billion US-dollar.

    Is that supposed to be good work? Suspect
    Define work.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:22 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Russia has third largest defense budget.

    Not anymore thanks to ruble devaluation.

    Guess what - procurement costs devalued too. Unless you think that Russia stuffs its defence products with foreign parts paid for in Euros and Dollars.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:39 am

    Dima wrote:
    Militarov wrote:Sevmash and Zvezda in terms of pure labor, got no clue how to build carrier, let alone super carrier with catapult,  at least not at this moment.
    Really?
    What do you base you opinion on?

    On fact that they never built anything even remotely similar? O.o Only handful of shipbuilding companies have experience with such projects, its far bigger bite than you can even imagine.

    Adapting already existing hull is one thing, building it from scratch is totally different type of job. Can Russian marine engineers in general do it?
    You are mixing things. Sevmash is a shipyard with a limited/in-house design team not covering the entire spectrum of ship design. There are dedicated design houses in Russia and they design subs and ships. A shipyards main business is to built ships according to the documentation/spec supplied by design house/customer.

    Well aware of that however you need production engineers with experience on spot to advise and overlook production and assembly, Russia atm got no such engineers to my knowledge, maybe some guys that worked on Uljanovsk class are still around but its quite possible they are old, retired or live in Ukraine. Also carrier is not comparable to any other type of ship at all, its complex beyond anything else that floats around.


    Sevmash can barely handle Kuznetsov since its around its maximum projected weight and size of its docks.
    You are kidding my dear!

    The only obstacle Sevmash is having w.r.t to Kuznetsov or new carrier construction is the entry/flood gates to Sevmash basin!!!
    Get this little but very very important fact right!!!
    Once you understand this little stuff you will understand why Sevmash cannot built an aircraft carrier in its basin.

    By God's grace, Project 11430 was lucky as the aircraft carrying cruiser managed to squeeze through the narrow flootgates of Sevmash yard into the basin with barely 1m clearance on either side. It was equally laborious while exiting but it was navigated/tugged in and out by highly skilled/experienced personals without any incident, not even a slightest scratch on the hull.

    Just for info, Pr.1143.4 Kiev class has a max waterline beam of nearly 32 meters where as Pr.1143.7 Kuznetsov has a max waterline beam of nearly 36 meters. Unless the entry is widened there is no chance for Kuznetsov to enter the basin or a new carrier with similar or wider beam to be constructed inside the yard permises. Crane capacity is secondary here as they can even do with piecing together small sections.

    From what i am aware Kuznetsov has 38m waterline beam.  I have my doubts regarding actual dock max weight limit to be honest beside fact that you cant fit actual carrier in there you do not want to destroy structure of your dock either. Not all docks are made with same production in mind.

    Sevmash with current cranes cant even lift some of the carrier segments, in Mykolaiv they had 1000t cranes, in Russia biggest ones to my knowledge are 550t, lack of docks, lack of skilled workers, lack of cranes
    Hope you meant Nikolayev South Shipyard. Do you really think lifting capacity of a 1,000t is the baseline capacity that a shipyard needs? Its good to have such a capability, but its not the end of world. The heaviest block that I have seen those cranes lift are the huge superstructure of Pr.1143.4 Baku/Admiral Gorshkov. The large superstructure that we still see on INS Vikramaditya was installed on the deck as a single pre-fabricated block/module during its construction by those two cranes.

    To my knowledge Mykolaiv and Nikolaev are same place. 1000t cranes are not mandatory however when you want to build a carrier they are more than great aid, you cant really afford to build everything from tiny segments, if you have serious lifting capability you can do welding on multiple locations and then just merge modules in bigger "chops", its kinda more efficient.

    lack of certain (modern) shipbuilding technologies, they slept for 20 years due to bad financial situation, get real and stop chanting "Russia is building carriers in 2018."
    Do you mean to say that Russia cant start constructing a carrier by 2018?

    Highly unlikely imho.


    Hopefully Zvezda will be able to take some segments for carrier in future, some Sevmash but they will still need very big outfitting quay.
    Sevmash have plenty of outfitting space.

    Question is does it have adequate outfitting space, i did not build many carriers in my life so i cant judge on that but rest of the facilities are suspicious at least for such achievement.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:53 am

    Dima wrote:


    Check slipway and cranes in major shipyards, they can manage averagely sized tankers at the best.
    Take the dimensions I earlier posted and check once more and you will see a solution. Its just a bottle neck.

    I will explain.
    1) Widen the entry to Sevmash basin/yard. This will be cheaper than constructing a new 400m x 70m dry dock which was earlier planned.
    2) See the capacity of Sevmash 302 x 44m. Its the covered slipway on which n-subs are constructed. Two lines in parallel with common rail for cranes. Downside being obstruction in N-sub construction.
    3) Utilize this installed capacity to built hull sections which will negate the need for heavy lift cranes in the basin or on floating docks.
    4) Float them out into the basin for final assembly, preferrably on a floating dry dock which can be fabricated in Sevmash itself. Each time basin will need to be flooded.
    5) Float the completed hull out of the basin for outfitting to free up the basin.

    All these will depend on the entry/exit, coz we have not advanced enough to see a flying carrier.  Very Happy

    In my humble opinon, its doable and in Sevmash itself but depends on three things - Plan, Resolve & Funds. Everything else comes into place automatically.

    Widening the entry and basin and quay is fine, however they need new dock, widening existing facilities is just stop gap solution at the best, production rate in Russian shipbuilding (not that i like it being that way) is quite patethic. Constant delays, fires, lacks of steel, lack of domestic tooling, cranes... it has to stop, making new docks and training good labor force is good start.

    I am not sure if its possible to miniaturise carrier sections so much to manage its construction with 550t cranes to be honest. I mean naturally its possible, but is it smart or good? I am not marine engineer but i am not sure if its really good to build carrier like lego.





    USS Ford carrier is modular as it gets with carriers and still i see some HUGE cranes working on it and moving its sections that are probably heavier even than 1000t, i am not saying it couldnt be done by welding smaller compartments on spot but this way its far more convinient.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:13 am

    And? Sevmash's work shows that they could not do it without severe delays and cost overruns.

    So. Why would that make it any different from any other current Russian ship building programme?

    WTF does Sevmash's work history have to do with Zvezda? Do you think Zvezda has the capacity to work on 360m long ships weighing 300K tons by accident?

    It is pretty clear they want to build new carriers at Zvezda.

    The PRC has more money to burn and shipyards which did not experience decay in the last decades.

    I am not saying China can't build carriers, you are saying Russia can't... and I am disagreeing with you.

    I think that you should stop beating around the bush.

    Thinking about this rationally, if they want to operate in international waters they will need an air component... that does not come from magic beans... it comes from aircraft carriers.

    They don't need 13 of them and they wont be 100K ton monstrosities like the US builds.

    they might even be twin or triple hull catamaran types... who can say?

    Russia has had other commitments in countries like Georgia and Tadjikistan in the last decades.

    Nothing that has cost them a fraction of what the UK has paid to travel on Americas coat tails saving the world.

    Mate, we are not talking about light carriers (<30,00 tonnes displacement).

    No we are not... they have already mentioned sizes in the 60K to 80K range.

    In fact with a naval PAK FA on board they could operate as both fighter and strike aircraft in one...

    Then admirality shipyard would be the one to do it since they have the capacity to do upwards to 70,000DWT. Maybe it would take them long and expensive for first inital build for shipyard upgrades and training, but once done, its done. Rather buy it locally produced and expensive rather than paying someone else.

    The first ship of any class of any size will always take longer as new problems present themselves. The fact that the propulsion (ie nuclear reactor) has been in development for some time, and likely new radar and sensors have already likely been development for upgrades to the Kirov class vessels and of course the majority of weapon systems have been standardised that development wont take more than a decade, so we are talking about a first vessel in the mid 2020s to be layed down and ready for testing by 2030. Work will be assisted by upgrades to the Kuznetsov with new modular systems developed for the new vessels... so like fitting new engines to Su-35 that can be adapted later to the PAK FA sort of stuff.

    How realistic would a "stopgap" 2nd Kuznetsov be, does anyone know?

    It would be better to start from scratch... a stop gap would take as long to build and upgrade as the current K would take to upgrade and would not be cheap either... it makes rather more sense to build new because no matter the design it will not be cheap to build and operate. A new design will have a new modular construction that will simplify upgrades over the life of the vessel and the vessels that come after it.

    1) Steam turbines (no need for change even if N-propulsion is opted instead of the KVG-3D boilers)
    2) Gear assembly (no need for change)
    3) Propellers & shafts (no need for change)

    A brand new vessel can get rid of the enormous heavy shafts and use propeller pods... it saves space and weight and allows vastly superior manouver capability and it means you can place the NPP anywhere you want on the ship...

    The need gear assemblies when you have electric drive are greatly simplified.

    Sevmash's work was supposed to be finished in 2008.
    The Vikramaditya was delivered in 2013.
    The conversion was supposed to cost 0,8 billion US-dollar.
    In the end, India had to pay 2,35 billion US-dollar.

    Is that supposed to be good work?

    It was never supposed to cost 0.8 billion... the first number was 1.4 billion and included the air component. The cost increases and delays were largely because of negotiations taking too long and finding rather more internal components, wiring and piping needed replacement. BTW an extra 900 million is peanuts... 22 billion for 126 Rafales in comparison and there is no complaints from Indian fans... cost over run of 12 billion dollars for a brand new item that did not require modification...

    BTW those Indian carriers are also not on budget or on time either...

    Perhaps making carriers isn't so easy?

    Well aware of that however you need production engineers with experience on spot to advise and overlook production and assembly, Russia atm got no such engineers to my knowledge, maybe some guys that worked on Uljanovsk class are still around but its quite possible they are old, retired or live in Ukraine. Also carrier is not comparable to any other type of ship at all, its complex beyond anything else that floats around.

    So how can carriers exist if you can't build any if you have not built any before?

    That is just stupid.

    USS Ford carrier is modular as it gets with carriers and still i see some HUGE cranes working on it and moving its sections that are probably heavier even than 1000t, i am not saying it couldnt be done by welding smaller compartments on spot but this way its far more convinient.

    A bit of reality... the US has plenty of super carriers and other large vessels... russia is not going to build 30 large carriers that require such facilities so there is no value in upgrading Sev for the one or two or three ships it might actually build that would require such a building capacity... that is just DUMB.

    They are upgrading Zvezda with the help of the South Koreans to build large tankers and LNG carriers of very large physical sizes and weights, it makes rather more sense to build the one or two or three carriers they might want there in between commercial products.

    Sure there is an issue with security and putting military systems, but I am sure they can deal with that.

    If you look up a thread I posted a few years ago about the new shipyard it states that they will have the capacity to make large and very large vessels and the capacity to make military vessels too.

    They make spaceships... another large carrier is not that big a deal.

    The new drive for modular construction and modular design should make things rather easier, not harder.

    Just look at their experience with the Sidewinder missile... they found out... when they captured the first examples that the IR seeker was no better than their own, and that the rocket motor was no better than their own... the two critical things they learned was the modular design... the AA-1 by comparison was a complex mish mash of parts and wires and bits and pieces... the sidewinder was totally modular... seeker at the front, guidance system behind then warhead and then front control surface servos, then rocket motor and rear fins... the other thing was the rolleron gyros were tiny compared with their own.

    the design of the sidewinder was so simple they were able to copy it and put it into production faster than they could retrain their engineers designing AAMs to use the modular design principles, but once they got it they took it rather further than the US did... with SARH and IR guided Sidewinders in Soviet service, followed eventually by the ultimate modular missile... the R-27 which included several dozen different seeker heads, two motor options... resulting in an enormous number of combinations...

    We have seen it with Armata... they are trying to move to state of the art in all areas... why would they settle for K2? There is no enormous rush. It is better to get it right than to get it right now and below par.


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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:04 pm

    Well aware of that however you need production engineers with experience on spot to advise and overlook production and assembly, Russia atm got no such engineers to my knowledge, maybe some guys that worked on Uljanovsk class are still around but its quite possible they are old, retired or live in Ukraine. Also carrier is not comparable to any other type of ship at all, its complex beyond anything else that floats around.

    So how can carriers exist if you can't build any if you have not built any before?

    That is just stupid.

    No, no we are here talking about that 2018. time tag some people here talk about very often, that is unreal, building carrier without engineers experienced with it is possible it just takes alot more time. Well one way is to already have such engineers, second way is to build first carrier for 10 years so they get experience on the way, solve problems, solve issues, manage production etc, i am just saying experience is what Russian marine engineers lack, they all have great from the book knowledge, Russian education system is quite good. I never said Russian engineers are bad, they just lack experience and knowledge of certain "cutting edge" technologies coz as you know R&D in marine field was quite dead for 15 years, maybe even abit longer.

    In such projects there has to be someone who can say "that is wrong", "that is bad idea", someone who either studied carriers whole his life or someone who actually did participate in building of one.

    USS Ford carrier is modular as it gets with carriers and still i see some HUGE cranes working on it and moving its sections that are probably heavier even than 1000t, i am not saying it couldnt be done by welding smaller compartments on spot but this way its far more convinient.

    A bit of reality... the US has plenty of super carriers and other large vessels... russia is not going to build 30 large carriers that require such facilities so there is no value in upgrading Sev for the one or two or three ships it might actually build that would require such a building capacity... that is just DUMB.

    They are upgrading Zvezda with the help of the South Koreans to build large tankers and LNG carriers of very large physical sizes and weights, it makes rather more sense to build the one or two or three carriers they might want there in between commercial products.

    Sure there is an issue with security and putting military systems, but I am sure they can deal with that.

    If you look up a thread I posted a few years ago about the new shipyard it states that they will have the capacity to make large and very large vessels and the capacity to make military vessels too.

    They make spaceships... another large carrier is not that big a deal.

    The new drive for modular construction and modular design should make things rather easier, not harder.

    Just look at their experience with the Sidewinder missile... they found out... when they captured the first examples that the IR seeker was no better than their own, and that the rocket motor was no better than their own... the two critical things they learned was the modular design... the AA-1 by comparison was a complex mish mash of parts and wires and bits and pieces... the sidewinder was totally modular... seeker at the front, guidance system behind then warhead and then front control surface servos, then rocket motor and rear fins... the other thing was the rolleron gyros were tiny compared with their own.

    the design of the sidewinder was so simple they were able to copy it and put it into production faster than they could retrain their engineers designing AAMs to use the modular design principles, but once they got it they took it rather further than the US did... with SARH and IR guided Sidewinders in Soviet service, followed eventually by the ultimate modular missile... the R-27 which included several dozen different seeker heads, two motor options... resulting in an enormous number of combinations...

    We have seen it with Armata... they are trying to move to state of the art in all areas... why would they settle for K2? There is no enormous rush. It is better to get it right than to get it right now and below par.

    Hey updating Sevmash is not stupid idea, in case of shipyards bigger is always better. New big facilities and new technology and workforce can bring foreign orders for big ships, i mean Samsung shipyards are building what... 60 major size ships each year. Imagine if Sevmash was building 30 major size tankers each year for commercial use, thats hell of a money and great way to keep both workers and engineers employed and in shape for any military project. Lets not just look at military side of Russian shipbuilding, if they invest enough Russians can become world leaders in both civilian and military shipbuilding there is no reason not to if they work hard enough.
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    Rmf

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Rmf on Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:52 am

    wait a second now that you mention it i remembered they built a large ice breaking tanker , with thicker hull plates and reinforced structure ah here it is.
    http://barentsobserver.com/en/node/21009
    70.000 tonns
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Militarov on Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:25 am

    Rmf wrote:wait a second now that you mention it i remembered they built a large ice breaking tanker , with thicker hull plates and reinforced structure ah here it is.
    http://barentsobserver.com/en/node/21009
    70.000 tonns

    Well aware of Sovkomflots fleet. Take note that its DWT 70.000t. Among todays tankers its kinda mid sized, if even. Its basically reinforced tanker so it doesnt always need icebreaker escort, its not really something extremly sophisticated and complicated like carriers are. But none the less its good that they are building such ships they can provide good base for other projects.

    http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/mikhail_ulyanov/
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    Rmf

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Rmf on Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:40 pm

    well now that it belongs to russia - zaliv shipyard on east crimea built 181.000t  displacement supertankers in 80s largest in soviet union.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalyv_Shipbuilding_yard

    ,and it has big dock
    http://zalivkerch.com/index.php/o-nas/nashi-vozmozhnosti/38-dokovyj-kompleks
    354x60m , with 2x 320t cranes that can work in tandem for 600t combined.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:23 am

    Rmf wrote:well now that it belongs to russia - zaliv shipyard on east crimea built 181.000t  displacement supertankers in 80s largest in soviet union.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalyv_Shipbuilding_yard

    ,and it has big dock
    http://zalivkerch.com/index.php/o-nas/nashi-vozmozhnosti/38-dokovyj-kompleks
    354x60m , with 2x 320t cranes that can work in tandem for 600t combined.

    Well aware of that shipyard and both Krym and Pobeda types that were built there in 80s and early 90s.

    Krym:

    Max. length: 295,2 m
    Length between perpendicular: 277,1 m
    Breadth: 45 m
    Depth: 25,4 m
    Draugh: 17 m
    Deadweight: 150000 t
    Displacement: 181000 t
    Net hold contents: 202500 m3
    Speed: 17 knots
    Cruising range: 25000 miles
    Autonomy: 80 days
    Crew: 36
    Residential places number: 45
    Steam-turbine engine output: 30000 bhp

    Pobeda:


    Max. length: 242,8 m
    Length between perpendicular: 228 m
    Breadth: 32,2 m
    Depth: 18 m
    Draught at summer draught: 13,62 m
    Deadweight: 68000 t
    Displacement: 84500 t
    Net hold contents: 71100 m3
    Speed: 15 knots
    Cruising range: 16000 miles
    Autonomy: 40 days
    Crew: 36
    Residential places number: 45
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    Dima

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:10 pm

    Rmf wrote:well now that it belongs to russia - zaliv shipyard on east crimea built 181.000t  displacement supertankers in 80s largest in soviet union.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalyv_Shipbuilding_yard

    ,and it has big dock
    http://zalivkerch.com/index.php/o-nas/nashi-vozmozhnosti/38-dokovyj-kompleks
    354x60m , with 2x 320t cranes that can work in tandem for 600t combined.
    thumbsup

    The dry dock looks good and would facilitate the construction of 1143.7 class for sure.

    http://zalivkerch.com/images/dock/dock.JPG


    http://zalivkerch.com/images/dock/dock2.jpg


    http://zalivkerch.com/images/dock/dok-osnova.jpg

    So yet again a good option with ready infrastructure has opened up in the Black sea. So what remains?? Funds!!! For preparing the yard and for the carrier itself.
    But if they are are entrusted with building 1143.5 or 1143.7 size carriers, they need to be put directly under the Sevmash supervision team that undertook the Project 11430. Russian Govt can give carrier construction as an economic incentive for Crimea.

    Or instead they could also start a parallel line for Pr.22350 or other larger ships. A good start can also be with couple of large fleet replenishment ships.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:40 pm

    Dima wrote:
    Rmf wrote:well now that it belongs to russia - zaliv shipyard on east crimea built 181.000t  displacement supertankers in 80s largest in soviet union.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalyv_Shipbuilding_yard

    ,and it has big dock
    http://zalivkerch.com/index.php/o-nas/nashi-vozmozhnosti/38-dokovyj-kompleks
    354x60m , with 2x 320t cranes that can work in tandem for 600t combined.
    thumbsup

    The dry dock looks good and would facilitate the construction of 1143.7 class for sure.

    http://zalivkerch.com/images/dock/dock.JPG


    http://zalivkerch.com/images/dock/dock2.jpg


    http://zalivkerch.com/images/dock/dok-osnova.jpg

    So yet again a good option with ready infrastructure has opened up in the Black sea. So what remains?? Funds!!! For preparing the yard and for the carrier itself.
    But if they are are entrusted with building 1143.5 or 1143.7 size carriers, they need to be put directly under the Sevmash supervision team that undertook the Project 11430. Russian Govt can give carrier construction as an economic incentive for Crimea.

    Or instead they could also start a parallel line for Pr.22350 or other larger ships. A good start can also be with couple of large fleet replenishment ships.

    I have my doubts regarding actually building something of Ulyanovsk type there, from what i recall it was over 80m wide at the deck and over 40 at the beam, that is not easy to be put there. You need space on sides for equipment. I mean there is a reason why carriers were built in Nikolayev and not anywhere else, i guess its doable with some jungling with sections being moved and assembled in outfitting quay.

    And yeah, we kinda went in off alot. Back to MiG29K Very Happy
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Rmf on Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:00 pm

    i have no doubts, on that last picture 2 mamuth cranes are visible.
    there could be tight space for outer edges of the deck for those cranes , but those could be fitted latter with other cranes with no problem due to modular construction and less weight.

    its simple- zaliv was busy with largest civilian & commercial projects. nikolaev was pure military base from historic times with 330x40 dock where largest battleships were to be constructed in ww2 but scrapped, and latter ulyanovsk carrier .

    zaliv did build some destroyers in old days in other smaller docks in line with old soviet dual use industries.
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    artjomh

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  artjomh on Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:41 pm

    Zaliv is not in a great shape right now.

    They wish they could build some auxilliary right now. Building a combat ship, much less an aircraft carrier (good joke!), is beyond their wildest dreams in terms of actual implementation.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Rmf on Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:06 pm

    yeah ,troubled zvezda on far east that cant finish anything 5 years behind scedule and already full of surface and submarine maintenance orders  is in much better state....
    oh wait !

    all the while zaliv (bay) is empty of orders.

    then again this in black see and could be problems with turkey, so pacific ice free open ocean is logical place.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:34 pm

    Militarov wrote:I have my doubts regarding actually building something of Ulyanovsk type there, from what i recall it was over 80m wide at the deck and over 40 at the beam, that is not easy to be put there.
    Nimitz class
    Length: 332.8 m overall
               317.0 m waterline
    Beam: 76.8 m overall
              40.8 m waterline

    Ulyanovsk class
    Length: 321.2 m overall
    Beam: 83.9 m overall
              40 m waterline

    Kuznetsov class
    Length: 305 m
    Beam: 72 m overall
             
    QE class
    Length: 280 m
    Beam: 39 m waterline
              70 m overall

    These are the dimensions of large carriers for a quick look. The Zaliv shipyards dry dock we are talking about here is of 354 x 60m in dimension and compares well with the Nikolayev 330 x 40m. Overall length of the dock is is of no problem.  

    You need space on sides for equipment. I mean there is a reason why carriers were built in Nikolayev and not anywhere else, i guess its doable with some jungling with sections being moved and assembled in outfitting quay.
    I don't understand your space requirement for equipments on the sides. We are looking at likely future construction with large hull sections, probably 6-8 large sections (?).

    Take a look CVF construction, they worked up the hull sections inside this tight fit. Max beam of CVF at waterline is 39 meters, so you can guess how much that dry dock is about. With Zaliv we have a 60 m wide dry dock which is 20m wider than what you see below.



    If installation of overhangs interfere with the cranes, it can be done after floating out with dock side cranes.


    But no one is going to start work with the yard as it is now. If at all a carrier programme is initiated and Zaliv is selected (or for that matter any other yard), preliminary preparation will be undertaken at the yard which will do away with the shortcomings.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:41 pm

    Rmf wrote:its simple- zaliv was busy with largest civilian & commercial projects. nikolaev was pure military base from historic times with 330x40 dock where largest battleships were to be constructed in ww2 but scrapped, and latter ulyanovsk carrier .
    People due to some odd reasons fail to understand this. Similar stuff that comes to mind is that of production of propulsion units. Soviet Russia concentrated its premier N-propulsion units in-house where as allmost all the conventional units were put in the Ukranian basket. This as we see now have come back to bite hard.

    Its a good thing that Russia have regained a large capacity yard which it had to loose earlier. It is right time to channel funds for this yard and make it a well oiled unit. If funds are available the possibilities are numerous. From corvettes to aircraft carriers.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:44 pm

    artjomh wrote:Zaliv is not in a great shape right now.
    Can you name one Russian shipyard which was/is in good shape?

    Building a combat ship, much less an aircraft carrier (good joke!), is beyond their wildest dreams in terms of actual implementation.
    Would you like to expand your thoughts on why the possibility of building a carrier at Zaliv is a good joke?
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:51 pm

    Rmf wrote:yeah ,troubled zvezda on far east that cant finish anything 5 years behind scedule and already full of surface and submarine maintenance orders  is in much better state....
    oh wait !  

    all the while zaliv (bay) is empty of orders.

    then again this in black see and could be problems with turkey, so pacific ice free open ocean is logical place.
    Yes, an ice free area is always good to have and a yard to cater for Black sea, Mediterranean and Indian Ocean requirements would be fine. If they have no immediate plans for an a/c carrier I would like to see the monopoly on Pr.22350 being broken and start a parallel production line at Zaliv. But preparatory work needs to be funded and Russian Govt shouldnt shy away from it. It will be a good boost to the frigate/destroyer construction if the yard can be fully prepared for all classes of ships in 18-24 months.
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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  Rmf on Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:42 am

    lets be honest bolshoy kamen - just east of vladivostok -was chosen like 5-6 years ago for major construction dock and upgrade,  aaaand still not much is done ,and it was at a time crimea was part of ukraine.
    now situation has changed workers at zaliv would love to get hands on some big project ,possibly a new russian destroyer or even carrier.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:52 am

    Rmf wrote:lets be honest bolshoy kamen - just east of vladivostok -was chosen like 5-6 years ago for major construction dock and upgrade,  aaaand still not much is done ,and it was at a time crimea was part of ukraine.
    now situation has changed workers at zaliv would love to get hands on some big project ,possibly a new russian destroyer or even carrier.

    I hope you are not talking of Zevzda shipyard cause I posted recent video of it and what was shown last year. Major strides has happened in its construction. And with supposed orders of $39B, it will definately do well. Mind you, those orders are civillian and not military.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:56 am

    artjomh wrote:Zaliv is not in a great shape right now.

    They wish they could build some auxilliary right now. Building a combat ship, much less an aircraft carrier (good joke!), is beyond their wildest dreams in terms of actual implementation.

    Only investment Zaliv had in the last 25 years was for painting its cranes in the blue and yellow national colours of the Ukrainian flag.

    Comical, just comical.

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