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    Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

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    Viktor

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Viktor on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:35 pm

    kvs wrote:Tornado-G looks like a Grad replacement with longer range, but much less than the true Tornado system.   They have a totally different physical appearance.   Seems like a bad naming choice.

    Nevermind the name but if you can modernize it in a cheap way and increase accuracy and range and all than go for it.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mike E on Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:00 pm

    kvs wrote:Tornado-G looks like a Grad replacement with longer range, but much less than the true Tornado system.   They have a totally different physical appearance.   Seems like a bad naming choice.
    It has not only improved missiles, but improved fire control and aiming systems as well. The truck used has also been updated, and it can operate with less crew... IMHO, it is a much bigger upgrade than what it may seem and what you make it out to be. Yeah it isn't a whole new system, but that will come later!


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    Vympel

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Vympel on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:10 am

    Where's the true Tornado system? Uragan-1M wasn't it? There's that handful of photos from a few years ago and otherwise nothing.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:10 am

    The true Tornado system shown to date uses the same chassis as the Iskander.

    I wonder if they are waiting for the new armoured vehicle families to enter service before they start introducing a new chassis?

    Or perhaps they are working on modular upgrades of Smerch and Uragan before they start producing the new vehicles...

    I don't know... just guessing... they certainly already have a lot of heavy artillery vehicles...
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:27 am

    GarryB wrote:The true Tornado system shown to date uses the same chassis as the Iskander.

    I wonder if they are waiting for the new armoured vehicle families to enter service before they start introducing a new chassis?

    Or perhaps they are working on modular upgrades of Smerch and Uragan before they start producing the new vehicles...

    I don't know... just guessing... they certainly already have a lot of heavy artillery vehicles...
    That is the Uragan-1M, as mentioned earlier. AFAIK, the well-known "Tornado" is a series of upgrades for multiple MLRS systems, including the -21, -27, and -30. 


    The 9A53-U will be what is known as the Uragan-1, and is based on the MZKT-79306 chassis (Iskander one). 


    So, the "true Tornado" is just another member of the "Tornado" MLRS upgrade package.


    Tornado 9A53-U (Uragan-1M);

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:39 am

    That vehicle only has 6 tubes per launcher... that makes it less powerful than Uragan, which of course has 16 tubes.

    I rather suspect those tubes are 300mm.

    I think your problem is that Uragan means Tornado and so it is getting confused.

    the whole idea of a palletised system would be one heavy platform that can carry either light (122mm Grad) medium (220mm Uragan) or heavy (300mm Smerch) rockets in reloadable pallets.

    Another system on a lighter truck that was more mobile and could perhaps only carry the lighter rockets would be useful, though a lighter truck version with a pallet load would also add all the advantages of pallet loads as well as offer the flexibility when loading with a wider choice of rocket types and calibres.

    the Amusing thing is that if the target is an enemy grouping of armoured vehicles 30km away loading up 122mm rockets actually offers the best solution as the 40 tubes with two anti tank top attack guided sensor fused submunitions means 80 tank killers with the 122mm version while the 300mm model carries 5 munitions per rocket, but with just 12 rockets, that means 60 munitions... though the 300mm system can hurl them to 90km which is rather further than the 122mm which can only reach 30km with the same weapon system.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:09 am

    GarryB wrote:That vehicle only has 6 tubes per launcher... that makes it less powerful than Uragan, which of course has 16 tubes.

    I rather suspect those tubes are 300mm.

    I think your problem is that Uragan means Tornado and so it is getting confused.

    the whole idea of a palletised system would be one heavy platform that can carry either light (122mm Grad) medium (220mm Uragan) or heavy (300mm Smerch) rockets in reloadable pallets.

    Another system on a lighter truck that was more mobile and could perhaps only carry the lighter rockets would be useful, though a lighter truck version with a pallet load would also add all the advantages of pallet loads as well as offer the flexibility when loading with a wider choice of rocket types and calibres.

    the Amusing thing is that if the target is an enemy grouping of armoured vehicles 30km away loading up 122mm rockets actually offers the best solution as the 40 tubes with two anti tank top attack guided sensor fused submunitions means 80 tank killers with the 122mm version while the 300mm model carries 5 munitions per rocket, but with just 12 rockets, that means 60 munitions... though the 300mm system can hurl them to 90km which is rather further than the 122mm which can only reach 30km with the same weapon system.
    I have seen it holding 15 rockets on each side, for a total of 30...

    Found it by searching for the 220 mm Tornado.

    Just as bad as the "Akula" and "Typhoon" mix-up brought to you by NATO.

    That it the entire basis of the Tornado... Modular rocket artillery, but only on newer chassis' and not the Tornado-G.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:59 am

    I have seen it holding 15 rockets on each side, for a total of 30...

    Yes, I suspect there are three different pallet types... the 15 tube pallet will likely be 122mm calibre so two pallets means 30 rockets, while the 220mm pallet likely has 8 tubes per pallet meaning 16 tubes, the same as Uragan, while the 6 tube pallet likely is the 300mm Smerch rocket pallet.



    The above picture shows the 15 tube per pallet system which by the look of it uses 122mm calibre rockets.



    This drawing however seems to show another palletised system with 20 rockets per pallet.

    I have yet to see the 8 tube 220mm rocket pallet and have only seen the 6 tube 300mm pallet.

    To me a light vehicle able to carry half the payload of the existing systems and a medium vehicle able to carry the same payload as existing vehicles would make a lot of sense operationally.

    the medium system could be the standard system and the light system could be used in places and environments where the heavier system would not be very mobile.

    For a mountain unit or a light or arctic unit the light unit might be more affordable and more mobile... and it would likely have better export potential too.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:13 pm

    Tornado-G: Grad follow-on (hence the "G")
    Tornado-U: Uragan follow-on (hence the "U")
    Tornado-S: Smerch follow-on (hence the "S")


    Tornado-G









    On of the guided projectiles for Tornado-S and Smerch

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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I have seen it holding 15 rockets on each side, for a total of 30...

    Yes, I suspect there are three different pallet types... the 15 tube pallet will likely be 122mm calibre so two pallets means 30 rockets, while the 220mm pallet likely has 8 tubes per pallet meaning 16 tubes, the same as Uragan, while the 6 tube pallet likely is the 300mm Smerch rocket pallet.



    The above picture shows the 15 tube per pallet system which by the look of it uses 122mm calibre rockets.



    This drawing however seems to show another palletised system with 20 rockets per pallet.

    I have yet to see the 8 tube 220mm rocket pallet and have only seen the 6 tube 300mm pallet.

    To me a light vehicle able to carry half the payload of the existing systems and a medium vehicle able to carry the same payload as existing vehicles would make a lot of sense operationally.

    the medium system could be the standard system and the light system could be used in places and environments where the heavier system would not be very mobile.

    For a mountain unit or a light or arctic unit the light unit might be more affordable and more mobile... and it would likely have better export potential too.
    Those tubes are way to large to be 122 mm! Look at these for reference...


    And...

    See the difference between these and the picture you posted? My guess is that the 220 mm has *either* 16 or 30 rockets for some reason, maybe the 16 one is actually export? 

    The 300 mm Smerch upgrade will have either 6 or 12 rockets, so it is likely the 220 mm -U has a similar option as well.

    Thanks Morpheus for the added reference above.

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:52 pm



    What would it take Russia to get a Tornado launch 500mm rockets? the heavier the rocket the better
    the punching power.. imagine a Tornado -Ultra with such rockets carrying at least 20 of them.. Smile

    I thinking if Russia wanted it they could do it.
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:06 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    What would it take Russia to get a Tornado launch 500mm rockets?  the heavier the rocket the better
    the punching power.. imagine a Tornado -Ultra  with such rockets carrying at least 20 of them.. Smile

    I thinking if Russia wanted it they could do it.
    They don't have any 500 mm rockets... At that point that are basically cruise missiles or ballistic missiles, no point IMHO.

    The Smerch can't even hold 20 300 mm rockets, how on Earth would anything hold 20 500 mm ones?

    They could, but what is the point?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:09 pm

    Those tubes are way to large to be 122 mm! Look at these for reference...

    Yes, you are quite right.

    So the 15 tube pallets are 220mm and the 300mm are 6 tubes per pallet, but I have yet to see the 122mm pallets.

    See the difference between these and the picture you posted? My guess is that the 220 mm has *either* 16 or 30 rockets for some reason, maybe the 16 one is actually export?

    You have to be careful... there are a range of 122mm rockets in Russian service... including 10km range anti diver rockets for coastal protection, and various different platforms with differing numbers of tubes.

    Looking at the pictures of Tornado-G the 122mm system doesn't seem to use a palletised system, so the medium vehicles might just have 220mm and 300mm options, while the smaller lighter vehicles might only be 122mm.

    There is one light vehicle designed to use pallets, but if there is no 122mm pallet system then it might only be able to use 220mm and 300mm rockets (one pallet instead of the mediums two).

    ie light vehicle:

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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:..., but I have yet to see the 122mm pallets.

    These seem to be 122 mm rocket/missile pallets (of the reloadable type) for another version of Tornado-G.


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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:09 pm

    Some related systems:


    Modernized Grad




    Modernized Grad




    Variant of Tornado-G(?)




    An experimental model of Grad with 56 launch tubes




    Prima (9K59) with 50 launch tubes(?) Seemingly one of the launch tubes is used for a different purpose.



    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Modernized Grad

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:28 pm

    Prima (9K59)

















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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Those tubes are way to large to be 122 mm! Look at these for reference...

    Yes, you are quite right.

    So the 15 tube pallets are 220mm and the 300mm are 6 tubes per pallet, but I have yet to see the 122mm pallets.

    See the difference between these and the picture you posted? My guess is that the 220 mm has *either* 16 or 30 rockets for some reason, maybe the 16 one is actually export?

    You have to be careful... there are a range of 122mm rockets in Russian service... including 10km range anti diver rockets for coastal protection, and various different platforms with differing numbers of tubes.

    Looking at the pictures of Tornado-G the 122mm system doesn't seem to use a palletised system, so the medium vehicles might just have 220mm and 300mm options, while the smaller lighter vehicles might only be 122mm.

    There is one light vehicle designed to use pallets, but if there is no 122mm pallet system then it might only be able to use 220mm and 300mm rockets (one pallet instead of the mediums two).

    ie light vehicle:

    Yep.... I haven't seen any 122 mm "pallets" either, only the Tornado G's rocket tube alignment which is like the Grads.

    True, but in general, the system may have a variant with a larger number of tubes. I'm not certain, but it is plausible 

    Morpheus, the "Modernized Grad" with 15 barrels on each side is 220 mm.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:00 am

    Mike E wrote:Morpheus, the "Modernized Grad" with 15 barrels on each side is 220 mm.

    I had the following picture in mind. What do you think about the launch tube size of these pallets?

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    GarryB wrote:..., but I have yet to see the 122mm pallets.

    These seem to be 122 mm rocket/missile pallets (of the reloadable type) for another version of Tornado-G.


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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:04 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Morpheus, the "Modernized Grad" with 15 barrels on each side is 220 mm.

    I had the following picture in mind. What do you think about the launch tube size of these pallets?

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    GarryB wrote:..., but I have yet to see the 122mm pallets.

    These seem to be 122 mm rocket/missile pallets (of the reloadable type) for another version of Tornado-G.


    Got it... Anyway, those pallets do look like they are Tornado chassis ready. My question is ifthey will actual use them, or will they go for the Tornado-G only? So far the -G seems to be their choice, but these pallets somewhat contradict that!
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:29 am

    Mike E wrote:Got it... Anyway, those pallets do look like they are Tornado chassis ready. My question is ifthey will actual use them, or will they go for the Tornado-G only? So far the -G seems to be their choice, but these pallets somewhat contradict that!

    I think from a tactical point of view, they have to use Tornado-G or other tactically equivalent systems as part the brigade-organic MRL assets. Please note that previously Grad type systems were for divisional use, and the smaller Grad-1 type systems were for regimental use.

    I think the 122 mm pallets on larger vehicles are technical gimmicks, except that, they may be intended for the subordination of 122 mm rockets, also, to the operational command (in parallel to the 220 mm and 300 mm systems), even though, Tornado-G or other tactically equivalent systems still make more sense even as assets subordinated to the operational command.

    I am also certain that we would see variants of Tornado-G on other chassis types, e.g. tracked chassis, for use in various brigade types.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:30 am

    So we have 20 tube pallets for the 122mm rockets, 15 tube pallets for the 220mm rockets and 6 tube pallets for the 300mm rockets.

    That makes sense.

    With the new pallet based system I wonder if they have a heavily armoured tracked chassis that they might add the TOS rockets to the system.

    Usually a 30 tube system a pallet for TOS would be interesting for an Armata vehicle... it could perform short range anti mine missions with TOS rockets, or long range artillery missions with Smerch and everything in between.

    I guess that would be taking standardisation too far.

    BTW the 122mm pallet idea has also gone to sea:



    reloadable from below deck pallets...

    Nice pics BTW Morph...
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:09 pm

    Do ship mounted 122mm MLRSs have Guided rounds? If so then russia would have a perfect anti-insurgency and anti-piracy tool able to be equipped on most small ships without wasting billions on underequipped Lemons like the US did with the littoral ships program...
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:44 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Do ship mounted 122mm MLRSs have Guided rounds? If so then russia would have a perfect anti-insurgency and anti-piracy tool able to be equipped on most small ships without wasting billions on underequipped Lemons like the US did with the littoral ships program...

    Yes, they have both guided missiles and corrected rockets, with "corrected rockets" referring to a different novel inexpensive concept.

    As an aside, the Russian amphibious ships used naval 122 mm MRLs to fire targeted unguided warning rockets at the Georgian naval vessels during the 2008 war, before using guided missiles to sink them.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:19 pm

    i dont see any news in internet about further deliveries. Can someone inform us with any info he may have?
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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Mike E on Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:So we have 20 tube pallets for the 122mm rockets, 15 tube pallets for the 220mm rockets and 6 tube pallets for the 300mm rockets.

    That makes sense.

    With the new pallet based system I wonder if they have a heavily armoured tracked chassis that they might add the TOS rockets to the system.

    Usually a 30 tube system a pallet for TOS would be interesting for an Armata vehicle... it could perform short range anti mine missions with TOS rockets, or long range artillery missions with Smerch and everything in between.

    I guess that would be taking standardisation too far.

    BTW the 122mm pallet idea has also gone to sea:



    reloadable from below deck pallets...

    Nice pics BTW Morph...
    Holy ****..... (Yes, I know I'm late) That is exactly what I had in my mind a couple months ago... A 122 mm Grad-like naval system that would be reloaded from under-deck. Great minds think alike, eh?

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