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    Tornado MLRS family: News

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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:33 am

    GarryB wrote:The MZKT is smaller and lighter than the old Smerch platform, but not as light as the vehicles depicted in that video above.

    MZKT is the truck used for Smerch.
    The MZKT is also used in Iskander, S-300, Bereg etc.

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:52 am

    A fresh video of Tornado-G from the Southern Military District (20th Motor Rifle Brigade).

    http://www.volgograd-trv.ru/flashN.aspx?id=20079

    And here is the article from the Volgograd TV that aired the video: http://www.volgograd-trv.ru/news.aspx?id=20079

    Both the video and article mention ranges of upto 100 km and the perspective use of cruise missiles on the Tornado-G...at least, that is what I understood with my limited Russian language skills.

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

    I rather suspect 100km range and Cruise missiles will be for the larger calibre models... particularly the 300mm.

    Raises interesting questions however as a cruise missile carrying model would be new.

    We have seen two new vehicles... a light truck with one pallet, and a larger MXZT (spelling) truck that is used for the Iskander missile system that includes the standard two ballistic missile version and another Klub related cruise missile version.

    Perhaps with the multiple rocket launchers initially they will simply be upgrades of existing vehicles, so Tornado-G, is an upgraded 122mm Grad as seen in the vid above, while the Tornado-S is an upgraded 300mm Smerch, and the Tornado-U is an upgraded 220mm Uragan.

    Further if there are "cruise missile" members of the family, perhaps they are talking about the cruise missile versions of the Iskander, in which case however should they not also mention long range precision semi ballistic versions as well (ie Iskander itself).

    Would it make sense to have a cruise missile adapted to the pallet design to replace Tochka-U and keep Iskander a separate system on a standardised chassis?

    That would mean that initially they would have Tornado-G,-S,-U, plus Tornado light single pallet and Tornado heavy two pallet, where the latter two can carry pallet versions of the 122, 220, and 300mm rockets or a new cruise missile... perhaps 2 to a pallet with a range of 100-200km.

    There would not be much point to the cruise missile having a very long range because the rocket artillery units they operate with would be to support ground forces and would not likely have the sort of recon assets attached to it to find targets at much more than 150km or so let alone identify such targets and monitor them for an attack.

    Of course these new cruise missiles could use ramjet propulsion and be more like large Kh-31s than subsonic turbojet powered cruise missiles. The higher speed will give the target less time to move or defend itself.

    Most people probably think that just because a weapon as range x that it will always be used at that range, but most of the time it will be used at whatever range they detect the target to be at, and considering it is an artillery unit with its focus on supporting a brigade that it is operating with it would be very unlikely for that unit to be looking for targets 200km away. It would operate at a certain distance from the unit it is supporting and it will be looking around that unit and other friendly units in the area for threats or targets of opportunity. This means that the vast majority of targets would be much more rapidly engaged with rockets.

    Sometimes however a small hard target might present itself and a long range guided missile on hand could be useful. In fact a high speed missile with an armoured warhead designed to either penetrate into a target before exploding, or conversely for exploding in the air above the target and that metal penetrator jacket acting as a fragmentation shell would make it a versatile weapon.

    For use against area targets then a barrage of unguided rockets is ideal, but for the odd hardened point target... like the basement of a tall building a smart and guided weapon that perhaps can be programmed to hit at a 45 degree angle through the second floor up so it penetrates the floor of that level and the ground floor and into the basement before exploding would be a useful weapon.

    For masses of armour forming up to meet the unit you are protecting there are a range of anti armour loads for Smerch, Uragan, and Grad rockets that would be much more effective.

    Equally an infantry unit forming up for an attack on a village or friendly unit, or indeed a patrol... if it can be located precisely could also be attacked with a deluge of steel and fire.

    it is rather like the combination of SPAAG and SAM... they compliment each other... there are expensive sensors and recon systems looking for targets... if they find area targets like groups of enemy vehicles then guided submunitions from unguided rockets is the solution, if it is a point target that individual rockets wont penetrate or is fairly small then a guided missile is the best choice, though realistically it would not often be used at more than the range of the unguided rockets because the role of the unit is to support friendly units in the area so it wont be looking 200kms away for small point targets to hit.

    If the weapon is a ramjet design for closer range targets you could program it to climb as high as it can and then expend as much fuel as it can in an extended AB mode in the dive to accelerate to as high a speed as it can manage to maximise the damage.

    My guesses only of course. Have to wait and see what is really going on.


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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:02 pm

    I am begining to think that the Hermes missile may be associated with one of the Tornado (G-U-S) systems.

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:20 pm


    I rather suspect 100km range and Cruise missiles will be for the larger calibre models... particularly the 300mm.


    GarryB 100 km range match exactly with the claim on an increase of two times and half of the range in respect to the old Grad system (about 40 km).



    http://izvestia.ru/news/523564


    Он отметил, что кроме существующих реактивных снарядов «Торнадо» сможет стрелять и новыми, с увеличенной в 2,5 раза дальностью, с новой начинкой боевой части,


    a "Smerch" with a similar increase would achieve and engagement range between 175 and 225 km !!! (practically similar MLRS divisions would achieve ranges of theatre ballistic missiles Smile )


    About the perspective plan to integrate modules with cruise missiles (in observance to the new Russian Army doctrine stressing on total elements modularity), it was pointed out that the plan included even ballistic missiles !!



    В перспективе модульная система РСЗО «Торнадо» сможет запускать крылатые и баллистические ракеты.

    With "Tornado" system continue to think in terms of MLRS's caliber for the integration of a particular weapon system will lose quickly any sense ; in fact the platform carrying in a particular moment a weapon module will eventually allow the shift ,directly in the field, toward a very different MLRS/cruise missile/ballistic missile module to carry completely different task.






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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:12 am

    I am begining to think that the Hermes missile may be associated with one of the Tornado (G-U-S) systems.

    Good thinking, but the comment from Mindstorm below about a 2.5 times increase in range applied to the 122mm rocket with a 40km range also matches the 100km range claim.

    With a 30kg warhead and a terminally guided payload that raises the question of how the ground based Hermes system would fit in.

    If there is a new small cruise missile to fill the role of Tochka-U then it will likely be used against large heavy targets with its ~500kg warhead. A Hermes battery would fit below that with terminal guidance so the precision of a guided weapon but a small warhead in comparison for point hard targets like tanks or HQ vehicles.

    Interestingly Hermes is about the size of a 122mm rocket as it is 130mm missile body diameter though the rocket booster is 210mm as is the launch tube. That suggests that a new grad rocket could be a two stage missile, perhaps with a reduced calibre missile (to reduce drag) and 122mm calibre booster to maximise thrust and speed. The payload of about 20kgs could be increased to about 30kgs and the guidance and manouvering hardware inside could be replaced by a low energy long burn rocket that overcomes drag and helps the rocket maintain speed to maximise range.

    a "Smerch" with a similar increase would achieve and engagement range between 175 and 225 km !!! (practically similar MLRS divisions would achieve ranges of theatre ballistic missiles Smile )

    Quite true, but I suspect a heavier warhead would be more use than a large increase in flight range which I think you will agree with. The primary purpose of these systems is heavy artillery fire support for a unit or Brigade. An enemy force forming up to make a large scale attack on that unit is the ideal target for a rocket battery. Of course in combat you can be very creative too... an enemy ambush at dusk so they can hit hard and retreat under cover of darkness. If you can channel the enemy as they retreat back up into the hills you can carpet their retreat options with landmines and then as they are trying to pass through these places HE submunitions to pin them till the follow up forces can catch up and rip them a new one.

    About the perspective plan to integrate modules with cruise missiles (in observance to the new Russian Army doctrine stressing on total elements modularity), it was pointed out that the plan included even ballistic missiles !!

    That suggests that the Iskander ballistic system and cruise missile system are going to be fully integrated into the rocket artillery "family".

    Initially there will be Tornado-G/-U/-S based on the Grad, Uragan, and Smerch, and they will be existing vehicles with 122mm, 220mm, and 300mm vehicles.

    They will be upgraded, but new production will be stopped except for export and the new vehicles produced will be Tornado Light, and Tornado-Medium and now of course Iskander ballistic and Iskander Cruise.

    The Tornado Light and Medium will carry one or two Pallets respectively of 122mm, 220mm, and/or 300mm depending on their mission.

    The medium will have the same vehicle chassis as Iskander, but will not be fully interchangable.

    in fact the platform carrying in a particular moment a weapon module will eventually allow the shift ,directly in the field, toward a very different MLRS/cruise missile/ballistic missile module to carry completely different task.

    Will they go as far as to modularise the Iskander ballistic missile and cruise missile into a pallet container?

    If they did that means the Tornado-Light could carry one Iskander or one cruise missile, while Tornado-Medium could carry two of each.

    I rather doubt that the light vehicle could carry that sort of weight however.

    Will be interesting to see how it all develops.


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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:19 pm

    First video of Tornado-G in live fire exercises:


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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:33 am

    Nice video...

    Notice almost total lack of rocket smoke?

    A bit of dust thrown up and the grass was set on fire, and a short trail of smoke when looking from behind that disappeared fairly rapidly.

    Interesting compared to the enormous smoke screens generated previously.


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    Russia Developing 200-km Range Rocket System

    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:58 am

    Russia Developing 200-km Range Rocket System

    MOSCOW, November 19 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is developing new long-range multiple-launch rocket systems (MLRS) with improved guidance that could allow them to strike targets up to 120 miles (200 km) away, the Defense Ministry's artillery spokesman said on Monday.

    "We have the military-technical potential to create a new generation of MLRS with a range of 200 km," Lt. Col. Nikolai Donyushkin said.

    Russia's artillery currently deploys the 122-mm Grad, 220-mm Uragan, and 300-mm Smerch rocket systems and the improved Tornado-S, Tornado-G, and Uragan 1-M are currently undergoing state acceptance trials. The army is in the process of receiving up to 30 Tornado-G systems this year, replacing the BM-21 Grad.

    The improved Tornado-S is being upgraded with the special GLONASS satellite navigation system used in the Smerch missile system, Donyushkin said. The Tornado-S will have guided rocket rounds enabling it to fire out to 72 miles (120 km).

    "The Tornado-S will have a longer range and increased effectiveness thanks to greater accuracy and the use of new warhead payloads and a reduced launch readiness time of just three minutes," he said.

    The army is gradually moving toward a new level of capability for deploying precision use of long-range rocket artillery, he said.

    "Massed use of high-precision weapons makes it possible to be certain of destroying high-value targets before they can be used on the battlefield by main-force groups. Fewer rounds need to be fired, simplifying logistics," he added.

    http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121119/177581650.html

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:10 pm

    Russia is developing new long-range multiple-launch rocket systems (MLRS) with improved guidance that could allow them to strike targets up to 120 miles (200 km) away, the Defense Ministry's artillery spokesman said on Monday.

    "We have the military-technical potential to create a new generation of MLRS with a range of 200 km,"



    Simply not correct .

    the original statement is the following:

    "Имеющийся научно-технический задел позволяет решить задачу создания нового поколения РСЗО с дальностью стрельбы более 200 километров", — сказал Донюшкин.


    http://ria.ru/forces/20121119/911230300.html


    "...engagement range superior to 200 km"


    This is not a small detail or a semantic nuance in facts ,already a month ago, the same Nikolai Makarovets (chief designer of the most advanced Russian MLRS) had declared :


    "Торнадо-С" – это конечно управляемые снаряды, управляемые системой "ГЛОНАСС", управляемая автономно, он имеет высокую дальность стрельбы. Мы уже сегодня можем обеспечить дальность того же "Смерча" до 200 км", - рассказал журналистам генеральный директор ФГУП "ГНПП "Сплав" Николай Макаровец."


    http://ria.ru/arms_mm/20121008/769372259.html


    "....already today we can offer a range for actual "Smerch" up to 200 km "


    200 km represent therefore the true "threshold" between the maximum engagement range increase achievable with latests technological breakthrough with legacy "Smerch" and the performance of the the new "Tornado-S".













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    Tornado MLRS: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:40 pm

    Tornado multiple launch rocket system will be Russia's newest universal MLRS. It was first unveiled in 2007 as a more strategically and tactically mobile version at the expense of a slight reduction of the firepower. This model is aimed at replacing the current generation of Russian MLRS, including BM-21 Grad, BM-27 Uragan and BM-30 Smerch. A version will be proposed for export.

    I made this thread especially for Russian Army's newest MLRS.


    Last edited by George1 on Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:13 pm

    i hope we will see mass deliveries from this year

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  George1 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:05 pm

    90 Tornado and Grad MLRS.

    http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/2014/01/17/whats-been-bought/

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:27 am

    any news for further deliveries??

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  Viktor on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:05 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    Until the end of the year in the Eastern Military District troops will arrive about 20 MLRS "Tornado-G"

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  kvs on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:21 pm

    Tornado-G looks like a Grad replacement with longer range, but much less than the true Tornado system. They have a totally different physical appearance. Seems like a bad naming choice.

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  Viktor on Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:35 pm

    kvs wrote:Tornado-G looks like a Grad replacement with longer range, but much less than the true Tornado system.   They have a totally different physical appearance.   Seems like a bad naming choice.

    Nevermind the name but if you can modernize it in a cheap way and increase accuracy and range and all than go for it.

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  Mike E on Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:00 pm

    kvs wrote:Tornado-G looks like a Grad replacement with longer range, but much less than the true Tornado system.   They have a totally different physical appearance.   Seems like a bad naming choice.
    It has not only improved missiles, but improved fire control and aiming systems as well. The truck used has also been updated, and it can operate with less crew... IMHO, it is a much bigger upgrade than what it may seem and what you make it out to be. Yeah it isn't a whole new system, but that will come later!


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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  Vympel on Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:10 am

    Where's the true Tornado system? Uragan-1M wasn't it? There's that handful of photos from a few years ago and otherwise nothing.

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:10 am

    The true Tornado system shown to date uses the same chassis as the Iskander.

    I wonder if they are waiting for the new armoured vehicle families to enter service before they start introducing a new chassis?

    Or perhaps they are working on modular upgrades of Smerch and Uragan before they start producing the new vehicles...

    I don't know... just guessing... they certainly already have a lot of heavy artillery vehicles...


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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:27 am

    GarryB wrote:The true Tornado system shown to date uses the same chassis as the Iskander.

    I wonder if they are waiting for the new armoured vehicle families to enter service before they start introducing a new chassis?

    Or perhaps they are working on modular upgrades of Smerch and Uragan before they start producing the new vehicles...

    I don't know... just guessing... they certainly already have a lot of heavy artillery vehicles...
    That is the Uragan-1M, as mentioned earlier. AFAIK, the well-known "Tornado" is a series of upgrades for multiple MLRS systems, including the -21, -27, and -30. 


    The 9A53-U will be what is known as the Uragan-1, and is based on the MZKT-79306 chassis (Iskander one). 


    So, the "true Tornado" is just another member of the "Tornado" MLRS upgrade package.


    Tornado 9A53-U (Uragan-1M);


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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:39 am

    That vehicle only has 6 tubes per launcher... that makes it less powerful than Uragan, which of course has 16 tubes.

    I rather suspect those tubes are 300mm.

    I think your problem is that Uragan means Tornado and so it is getting confused.

    the whole idea of a palletised system would be one heavy platform that can carry either light (122mm Grad) medium (220mm Uragan) or heavy (300mm Smerch) rockets in reloadable pallets.

    Another system on a lighter truck that was more mobile and could perhaps only carry the lighter rockets would be useful, though a lighter truck version with a pallet load would also add all the advantages of pallet loads as well as offer the flexibility when loading with a wider choice of rocket types and calibres.

    the Amusing thing is that if the target is an enemy grouping of armoured vehicles 30km away loading up 122mm rockets actually offers the best solution as the 40 tubes with two anti tank top attack guided sensor fused submunitions means 80 tank killers with the 122mm version while the 300mm model carries 5 munitions per rocket, but with just 12 rockets, that means 60 munitions... though the 300mm system can hurl them to 90km which is rather further than the 122mm which can only reach 30km with the same weapon system.


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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:09 am

    GarryB wrote:That vehicle only has 6 tubes per launcher... that makes it less powerful than Uragan, which of course has 16 tubes.

    I rather suspect those tubes are 300mm.

    I think your problem is that Uragan means Tornado and so it is getting confused.

    the whole idea of a palletised system would be one heavy platform that can carry either light (122mm Grad) medium (220mm Uragan) or heavy (300mm Smerch) rockets in reloadable pallets.

    Another system on a lighter truck that was more mobile and could perhaps only carry the lighter rockets would be useful, though a lighter truck version with a pallet load would also add all the advantages of pallet loads as well as offer the flexibility when loading with a wider choice of rocket types and calibres.

    the Amusing thing is that if the target is an enemy grouping of armoured vehicles 30km away loading up 122mm rockets actually offers the best solution as the 40 tubes with two anti tank top attack guided sensor fused submunitions means 80 tank killers with the 122mm version while the 300mm model carries 5 munitions per rocket, but with just 12 rockets, that means 60 munitions... though the 300mm system can hurl them to 90km which is rather further than the 122mm which can only reach 30km with the same weapon system.
    I have seen it holding 15 rockets on each side, for a total of 30...

    Found it by searching for the 220 mm Tornado.

    Just as bad as the "Akula" and "Typhoon" mix-up brought to you by NATO.

    That it the entire basis of the Tornado... Modular rocket artillery, but only on newer chassis' and not the Tornado-G.

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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:59 am

    I have seen it holding 15 rockets on each side, for a total of 30...

    Yes, I suspect there are three different pallet types... the 15 tube pallet will likely be 122mm calibre so two pallets means 30 rockets, while the 220mm pallet likely has 8 tubes per pallet meaning 16 tubes, the same as Uragan, while the 6 tube pallet likely is the 300mm Smerch rocket pallet.



    The above picture shows the 15 tube per pallet system which by the look of it uses 122mm calibre rockets.



    This drawing however seems to show another palletised system with 20 rockets per pallet.

    I have yet to see the 8 tube 220mm rocket pallet and have only seen the 6 tube 300mm pallet.

    To me a light vehicle able to carry half the payload of the existing systems and a medium vehicle able to carry the same payload as existing vehicles would make a lot of sense operationally.

    the medium system could be the standard system and the light system could be used in places and environments where the heavier system would not be very mobile.

    For a mountain unit or a light or arctic unit the light unit might be more affordable and more mobile... and it would likely have better export potential too.


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    Re: Tornado MLRS family: News

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:13 pm

    Tornado-G: Grad follow-on (hence the "G")
    Tornado-U: Uragan follow-on (hence the "U")
    Tornado-S: Smerch follow-on (hence the "S")


    Tornado-G









    On of the guided projectiles for Tornado-S and Smerch


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