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    Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat May 12, 2018 1:13 pm

    Thanks for the info. There was a good video on YouTube showing you how it worked I thought it was excellent idea and yet as far as I know the west doesn't have such a missile. So a full salvo over a wide area of encroaching enemy IFV's could be very effective and horrendous for the enemy as no real way of avoiding it and likely won't even realise what's happening might even think they have escaped any damage then suddenly bam their hit.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Hole on Sat May 12, 2018 7:02 pm

    The west got something like it. The CBU-97B SFW. Or CBU-105 with the WCMD (corrects wind drift). They got 10 BLU-108 bomblets, each with 4 Skeet-warheads. Is like the SPBE.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 13, 2018 11:40 am

    Yes, there is a western equivalent... I think it is MMW radar only and does not have an IR channel.

    In the 1980s there was a series of magazines that you bought to make an encyclopaedia of military equipment and it described these skeet weapons and suggested that by the 1990s the US would have awesome anti armour capabilities... which it said was just as well because of how much armour the Soviets had....

    Of course at that stage they didn't know half of what the Soviets even had then... that set did not mention the AT-7 or AT-13 and didn't know Kornet was coming...
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Hole on Sun May 13, 2018 4:47 pm

    There is also a missile for the MRLS, that got this submunitions. Don´t know the name.

    The new SPBE-K even got a IFF system.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:46 pm

    122-mm rockets for the Tornado-G MLRS

    At the military technical forum "Army-2018" held in Kubinka from August 21 to August 26, 2018, JSC "Scientific and Production Concern" Technology of Mechanical Engineering "(Concern" Techmash "State Corporation Rosteh) for the first time presented 122-mm ammunition of a new generation for reactive system of salvo fire 9K51M "Tornado-G" (combat vehicle 9B17M). These rockets 9M538, 9M539 and 9M541 are a regular ammunition of MLRS 9K51M "Tornado-G".



    Concern "Techmash" held a presentation of three new 122-mm shells for MLRS "Tornado-G". One of the exhibits is an unguided missile with a detachable high-explosive fragmentation headpiece (index 9M539). It is designed to engage in open and hidden manpower, unarmored equipment, command posts and other targets. The missile allows effectively hitting targets behind folds of the terrain (back slopes, gorges, etc.) and in the mountains. Range of fire - from 5 to 20 kilometers. The temperature range of combat use ranges from -50 ° C to + 50 ° C. The effectiveness of the damage to this rocket projectile is on the average 6 times higher than that of the uncontrolled high-explosive 9M22U rocket projectile (standard projectile) of the Grad system.

    Another unguided missile with a cluster head with cumulative fragmentation warheads (index 9M541). The ammunition hits the target at a distance of up to 20 km and punches armor 140 mm thick. The effectiveness of the lesion is 10 times higher than that of the standard Grad missile.

    Also for the first time, an unguided missile with a high-explosive fragmentary high-power head (index 9M538) was introduced. The munition is two times more effective than the standard SLAD "Grad", the mass of the head part is 34.5 kg, the number of ready 6-mm damaging elements in it is 1312 pieces, 9 mm - 2660 pieces.

    The "Tornado-G" system was adopted by the Russian Army in 2014 and has already established itself as a highly effective and reliable weapon that replaced the classic "Grad".
    "In the plans - further improvement of the" Tornado-G "system. We continue to develop solutions to increase the efficiency of this reactive system and have already found the necessary technical solutions, "said Vladimir Lepin, the general director of Techmash.


    The bmpd comment. A characteristic feature of all three new types of 122-mm rockets, which represents the regular ammunition for the MLRS 9K51M "Tornado-G", is the increase in the weight of the combat unit at the expense of increasing the range of fire. If the previously introduced new missiles of the 9M500 series for the MLRS Grad had a range of 30-40 km, the new missiles for the 9K51M Tornado-G missile have a range of up to 20 km, that is, corresponding to the old standard 9M22U missiles of the Grad system .

    At the same time, the combat part of the 9M538 fragmentation-explosive missile weighs 34.5 kg, the detachable high-explosive fragmentary headpiece (parachute-lowered) of the 9M539 missile weighs 36 kg, and the cluster warhead with the cumulative fragmentation of the 9M541 missile weighs 33, 6 kg (holds 70 items).

    The 9M538 shell has a length of 2.64 m (the length of the warhead is 1 m), the 9M539 and 9M541 shells are 3,053 m long.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3326341.html
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:12 am

    Did I read that right that these missiles are only 20km while old grad was 40km or is that only for certain types?

    Also any news if there will be a tracked version?
    I always thought a BM-21 would have been quite useful mounted on a MT-LB giving increased mobility and armour protection. Could possibly even mount it on a bmp-1/2/3 or BTR-60/70/80. Would be useful for artic conditions. I've seen BM-14 mounted on a MT-LB and T-54/55.
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    Hole

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  Hole on Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:38 am

    Rockets are heavier = more BUMM.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  George1 on Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:56 am

    Hole wrote:Rockets are heavier = more BUMM.
    attack
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:51 am

    The original Grad 122mm rockets had a range of 20km.

    The upgraded Grad rockets had extended range to 30-40km depending on the model and they had improved warheads.

    These new rockets have further improved warheads and have their range reduced to 20km again.

    The Israeli copy of the Grad also has slightly heavier warheads and shorter range than the originals they copied.

    The Israelis recognised how useful Grads are, and improved their performance with heavier warheads at the cost of slightly shorter range.

    Having enormous range is nice, but if your operational unit can't get target data on targets 50 or 100km away then there is no reason to launch rockets against targets that likely can't see you either.

    It is better to hit that enemy unit 20km away that is firing at you than that enemy unit 40km away that doesn't even know you are there.

    Remember they have Uragan (40km range with standard original rockets), and Smerch (70km and then 90km range with standard rockets) that would be used for any counter battery fire roles... new versions of which will likely include rockets with the same range and much better warheads, but also rockets with much better range for the counter battery role.... and likely equipped with a UAV support unit to find targets at those ranges...

    I always thought a BM-21 would have been quite useful mounted on a MT-LB giving increased mobility and armour protection.

    The virtue of rocket artillery is its range and its ability to deliver enormous concentrations of HE and Frags and indeed anti armour munitions over a fairly large area very very rapidly.

    Its range means it does not have to operate on or near a front line, while its wheeled chassis means it is highly mobile on roads and very cheap to operate in significant numbers.

    Making it armoured makes it more expensive and actually slower, yet no level of armour would make it actually safe.

    Lets face it... compare the Uragan to the US MLRS... the former is mounted on a truck already widely used in the eastern block and has 16 220mm calibre rockets with ranges of about 40km.

    The MLRS is mounted on a modified Bradley IFV chassis not used by any other NATO partner, and has 12 rockets with ranges of about 40km.

    You could probably get and operate 10 Uragans for the price of one Bradley based MLRS, and in terms of fire power, yet the Soviet vehicle carries more rockets, is vastly more mobile on roads...

    Even if you compare the Grad with the 40km ranged upgraded rockets... the Grad is much lighter and cheaper and has 40km range rockets... 40 of them...

    As mentioned even the Israelis use a copy... it is a good solid capable system... and new upgrades only make it better..

    Could possibly even mount it on a bmp-1/2/3 or BTR-60/70/80. Would be useful for artic conditions. I've seen BM-14 mounted on a MT-LB and T-54/55.

    I have seen a lot of Chinese APCs and IFVs with rocket tubes mounted on them... I think in that case their use would be different however.

    Much like the 80mm rocket pod packs they have developed for helos as shown in the back of utes (I believe Americans call them pickup trucks).... mounted on an IFV or APC they would not be used as artillery... they might be used as an anti ambush weapon in the direct fire role, or to take on lots of enemy infantry... also likely in a direct fire role.

    During WWII several tanks had unguided artillery rocket mounts on them to support operations in some cases... they never actually used them as indirect fire artillery.

    Of course with the computerisation and new accurate guided shells cheap enough to use as standard rounds (ie Glonass guided shells as used by Coalition etc), then using 2S1 or 2S3 vehicles roaming around the battlefield able to deliver shells accurately from wherever they are on target... would be especially useful somewhere like Syria where defined front lines simply don't really exist... these mobile fire support vehicles would be potent little gun packages... with an IFV or perhaps a few BMPTs to support them... when fire support is needed the unit in trouble can look up the location of the nearest fire support unit and call in coordinates for them to shell the problems and make them go away... that should work with tube artillery and rocket artillery... though the latter would be less accurate... the shorter range of 20km for these rockets should improve accuracy too.

    My understanding is that Russian rockets, while not actually guided, have gyro stabilisation systems that stabilise the flight and prevents rounds flying off in random directions. They don't make them more precise on target on their own, but keeps the volley of rockets closer together so wind or other factors effect their deviation from point of aim less.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:50 am

    Thanks GarryB for the info and input. I knew of course about cheap quick mobility of wheeled mount and shoot and scoot tactics. Being armoured yes would have only limited protection. Being tracked would of course allow it to operate in any terrain and it would of course depend on that if you needed such chassis. Obviously if there ever was an artic version I'd expect a tracked chassis and I suppose if the need was ever needed Russia could easily mount it on such very quickly.

    Agreed on the range just because something has a maximum range doesn't they will always operate at their maximum in fact it likely never does in combat because war doesn't always work like that.

    The grad is a great weapon and hence the west were keen to get them into terrorists hands in syria and that the SAA was very keen to eliminate such items in terrorists hands. Yet it's surprising that the west hasn't built there own system. Probably because it's not sexy and sophisticated and highly expensive and that's its a Russian creation lol. I knew that when I was in the forces they were very much feared a weapon that the Russians had because of the speed, firepower, range, and the sheer number they could field as well as the ease of being able to conceal them as simple trucks. There cheap and cheap munitions and once missiles are airborne no air defence system is going to be able to shoot down all missiles of a full salvo.

    The MLRS in British service was normally requested by troops on the ground but rarely the request was met. They were very selected probably down to the number fielded and cost of missiles which often meant troops went without fire support. Most of the time we only ever had battalion fire support available to us which was 81mm mortar the guys were good and very accurate but as you know lacks the firepower of something heavier like 120mm mortar. But still useful against troops and soft skinned vehicles. We would have loved to have had grad type system. The grad is a sort of step between nothing and MLRS the usa and uk are missing.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  George1 on Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:37 pm

    Russia’s new rocket-launched drone to pierce air defenses more easily — expert

    MOSCOW, September 30. /TASS/. Russia’s new drone, to be launched atop projectiles of the Smerch multiple launch rocket system, will be able to pierce the adversary’s air defenses more easily, Russia’s expert on unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), Denis Fedutinov, has told TASS.

    Russia’s Tecmash defense enterprise, which specializes in development and production of ammunition for the Russian armed forces, announced on Saturday that it started flight tests of a new UAV, propelled by Smerch rockets. The drone, which replaces the rocket’s warhead, can cover the distance of up 90 kilometers atop the rocket, then separate from it and continue its flight independently.

    "The main advantage of such a drone as compared to other low-speed UAVs is the higher chance of penetrating the adversary’s air defense systems. The drone will cross antimissile barriers inside a projectile of the multiple launch rocket system, which, due to its speed on one hand the possibility of being launched in a salvo of ordinary projectiles on the other, will make it a difficult target for missile defense systems," Fedutinov said.

    He said the main task of those UAVs will be to conduct aerial survey of ground targets within the range of multiple launch rocket systems.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1023681
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    archangelski

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  archangelski on Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:08 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia’s new rocket-launched drone to pierce air defenses more easily — expert

    MOSCOW, September 30. /TASS/. Russia’s new drone, to be launched atop projectiles of the Smerch multiple launch rocket system, will be able to pierce the adversary’s air defenses more easily, Russia’s expert on unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), Denis Fedutinov, has told TASS.

    Russia’s Tecmash defense enterprise, which specializes in development and production of ammunition for the Russian armed forces, announced on Saturday that it started flight tests of a new UAV, propelled by Smerch rockets. The drone, which replaces the rocket’s warhead, can cover the distance of up 90 kilometers atop the rocket, then separate from it and continue its flight independently.

    "The main advantage of such a drone as compared to other low-speed UAVs is the higher chance of penetrating the adversary’s air defense systems. The drone will cross antimissile barriers inside a projectile of the multiple launch rocket system, which, due to its speed on one hand the possibility of being launched in a salvo of ordinary projectiles on the other, will make it a difficult target for missile defense systems," Fedutinov said.

    He said the main task of those UAVs will be to conduct aerial survey of ground targets within the range of multiple launch rocket systems.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1023681

    The revival of the ENICS T-90 ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:24 am

    Yes, they have been promising this for some time... a little disappointing that they haven't completed development yet to make an actual operational system.

    More than a little ironic because it was the artillery part of the military that actually paid more than just lip service to UAVs in Soviet times with the Bumblebee being the only operational UAV system in Soviet regular use...
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    George1

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

    Post  George1 on Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:48 am

    Motorized rifle units of the 2nd Combined Arms Army of the Central Military District, within the state defence order, received fifteen Tornado-G MLRS.

    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12201418@egNews

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    Re: Russian MRLS: Grad, Smerch, Uragan, Tornado

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