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    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:39 am

    If one system can carry pallets of rockets ready to fire and can carry them in three different calibres (ie 122mm, 220mm and 300mm) then why also have upgraded models of the Grad, Uragan, and Smerch too?

    I mean I could understand the development of a light vehicle based on a light truck that carries one pallet of either 122mm, 220mm or 300mm that could go places the heavier vehicles could not and would be cheaper to buy and operate, and I can see the point in a much larger heavier vehicle that can carry two pallets of rockets ready to fire in the three calibres, but what I don't understand is the idea of having all three original vehicles in their different calibres plus a new vehicle able to carry the same ordinance as those three original vehicles.

    Just seems a little redundant.

    Perhaps what we are seeing is what the company wants to sell rather than what the Russian Army wants to buy.

    For now upgrades of the Grad make sense because the light vehicle has good mobility and low cost so it will always make sense, but having a slightly heavier vehicle able to replicate the loads of the three vehicles previously in service with all three calibre options means replacing three different vehicle types with two vehicle types without having to give up a calibre.
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    Post  BliTTzZ on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:20 am

    GarryB wrote:If one system can carry pallets of rockets ready to fire and can carry them in three different calibres (ie 122mm, 220mm and 300mm) then why also have upgraded models of the Grad, Uragan, and Smerch too?

    I mean I could understand the development of a light vehicle based on a light truck that carries one pallet of either 122mm, 220mm or 300mm that could go places the heavier vehicles could not and would be cheaper to buy and operate, and I can see the point in a much larger heavier vehicle that can carry two pallets of rockets ready to fire in the three calibres, but what I don't understand is the idea of having all three original vehicles in their different calibres plus a new vehicle able to carry the same ordinance as those three original vehicles.

    Just seems a little redundant.

    Perhaps what we are seeing is what the company wants to sell rather than what the Russian Army wants to buy.

    For now upgrades of the Grad make sense because the light vehicle has good mobility and low cost so it will always make sense, but having a slightly heavier vehicle able to replicate the loads of the three vehicles previously in service with all three calibre options means replacing three different vehicle types with two vehicle types without having to give up a calibre.
    The interesting part is, as far as I know, that this system is going to use also ATACMS type of missiles, but funny enough I can't find any information about 122mm pellet packs. I personally think this system has its advantages over previous generation mono type vehicles. It requires less time to change the packs than to manually reload ammunition.

    Also I can't find any information about upgraded Uragan, only about Grad and Smerch.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:06 am

    I understand the concept of pallet packs speeding up reloading but in a real conflict after firing the rockets the most important thing is to move immediately.

    The time it takes to move to a new position means reloading when you arrive at a new position is not as urgent as some might think.

    Personally I think the idea of being able to carry different calibres of rocket on one truck platform is the best feature of the pallet load concept. The fast reload capacity a very secondary factor.

    Smerch rockets have stabilisation gyros on board to ensure a volley lands in a fairly tight group no matter what the range but AFAIK there are no ATACMs developed for the system. It would make more sense to use Tochka-U or Iskander for such missiones. There are sensor fused munition models for anti armour use but otherwise no homing models I know of.

    There will be ground launched Hermes type ground to ground rockets with terminal guidance systems, so guided unguided rockets would be redundant to me.


    Also I can't find any information about upgraded Uragan, only about Grad and Smerch.

    Again... a lighter vehicle makes sense and a heavier vehicle able to carry more rockets makes sense but a middle weight vehicle does not make sense to me... especially if the light vehicle can carry one pallet of all three rocket calibres and the larger vehicle can carry two pallets of all three rocket calibres... what would be left for the middle vehicle to do?

    regarding the 122mm calibre pallets:

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 7 122mm_10

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 7 G10
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    Post  BliTTzZ on Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:02 pm

    I understand the concept of pallet packs speeding up reloading but in a real conflict after firing the rockets the most iпmportant thing is to move immediately.

    The time it takes to move to a new position means reloading when you arrive at a new position is not as urgent as some might think.

    Personally I think the idea of being able to carry different calibres of rocket on one truck platform is the best feature of the pallet load concept. The fast reload capacity a very secondary factor.
    I agree with you on this but if you're involved in conflict with asymmetric warfare, when your forces against some guerrillas from no to minimum capability to retaliate after your strikes. Then reload time becomes more important here if, for example, it's necessary to cover large area quickly.


    Smerch rockets have stabilisation gyros on board to ensure a volley lands in a fairly tight group no matter what the range but AFAIK there are no ATACMs developed for the system. It would make more sense to use Tochka-U or Iskander for such missiones. There are sensor fused munition models for anti armour use but otherwise no homing models I know of.
    Right now I can't find the source of this info I mentioned before, sorry. IIRC it was some kind of blog, similar to bmpd.

    I was also very curious about it because of analogy with ATACMS for M270 and HIMARS. But in contrary to Russia US doesn't have independent platforms like Tochka or Iskander, so their vehicles are more multirole.


    Again... a lighter vehicle makes sense and a heavier vehicle able to carry more rockets makes sense but a middle weight vehicle does not make sense to me... especially if the light vehicle can carry one pallet of all three rocket calibres and the larger vehicle can carry two pallets of all three rocket calibres... what would be left for the middle vehicle to do?
    No, I was talking about modernisation for older Grad, Uragan and Smerch systems. First and third upgraded vehicles are already on duty, but no words about modernized Uragan. And as we can see 220mm rockets are planned for Uragan-1M, so there's still use for this type of ammunition.


    regarding the 122mm calibre pallets:

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 7 122mm_10

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 7 G10
    On the first picture it's not Uragan-1M but modified Grad on Kamaz chassis, while the second one is pretty old, dated year 2013 IIRC.
    Most recent photos I've seen are from celebration of Artillery Day at Luga. And this particular vehicle presented there was equipped with 220mm and 300mm ammo containers. Don't get me wrong like I'm trying to argue what you said about 122mm packs, there's just to little footage of this vehicle nowadays.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:53 am

    Great News, Smerch's successor, Tornado-S will get GLONASS guided munitions capable of destroying targets beyond 200km's!

    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fvpk.name%2Fnews%2F174562_izvestiya_noveishaya_rszo_tornados_poluchit_sverhtochnuyu_raketu_so_sputnikovoi_navigaciei.html&edit-text=&act=url
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    Post  Project Canada on Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:58 am

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    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:49 pm

    MLRS "Uragan-1M" in St. Michael's military academy

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2429120.html
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    Post  franco on Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:14 pm

    First new modern Smerch MRLS arrived at T'ver (79th brigade). First upgraded unit should be operational by summer.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12119092@egNews
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    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:04 am

    franco wrote:First new modern Smerch MRLS arrived at T'ver (79th brigade). First upgraded unit should be operational by summer.

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12119092@egNews

    "Seven Smerch multiple rocket launchers have arrived for the Western Military District’s rocket artillery brigade stationed in the Tver Region as part of the troops’ planned rearmament with modern weapon systems and equipment. Late this month, the arrival of another five combat vehicles is expected," the district’s press office said.
    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/941779
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    Post  Vann7 on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:37 am



    200km range is pretty good. the only down is that it only carry 12 missiles.
    Will have been nicer to see Super heavy trucks to carry ~36 missiles instead or better
    50 missiles . It might require a more bigger truck but the fire power will be worth of it.
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    Post  0nillie0 on Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:39 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    200km range is pretty good. the only down is that it only carry 12 missiles.
    Will have been nicer to see Super heavy trucks to carry ~36 missiles instead or better
    50 missiles . It might require a more bigger truck but the fire power will be worth of it.

    A truck with 50 300mm rockets would make for a big, juicy, slow moving target
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:43 am

    It would be stupid to try to fit 50 300mm rockets on to one truck, the weight alone would limit where it could drive to only sealed roads and heavy bridges.

    These vehicles operate in groups, not on their own... so why make the vehicle stupid heavy by putting all the rockets on one vehicle?

    For each launch vehicle there will be several loading vehicles... it would take too long to fire off 50 rockets... any competent enemy would attack you in the time it took to fire all 50 rockets and then move.

    Carrying 36 missiles is easy... just use three trucks...
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    Post  Regular on Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:48 am

    Funny thing is Russia actually making less tubes on their MLRS systems. Reason is because better accuracy of new systems and better logistics.
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    Post  franco on Wed May 31, 2017 1:27 am

    The Russian army will receive new systems of volley fire "Tornado-S"

    By 2020, the rocket artillery brigades of the Russian army will receive the modernized Tornado-S RCDS with the Smerch burst fire systems. This was announced by RIA Novosti, the head of the Missile Forces and Artillery of the Russian Armed Forces Mikhail Matveevsky.

    In his speech, the military leader noted that the planned rearmament of the brigades of rocket artillery began this year. The first large-caliber RCD "Tornado" systems of various modifications have already arrived in the troops. One of the first to receive them was two divisions in the Western Military District.

    The main difference between the new multiple launch rocket system is its new automated guidance control system. It allows you to simultaneously control the shooting of the division, as well as automatically calculate the target data, guide the packs of guiding combat vehicles in the horizontal and vertical planes. The application of the new system will significantly increase the accuracy of shooting and shorten the deployment time of the complex from marching to combat.

    Recall that the Tornado-S system can fire unguided 300-mm rocket missiles and corrective ammunition with a high-explosive fragment or cluster warhead with a maximum range of up to 120 kilometers. In the future, it is possible to increase the range of fire at a distance of up to 200 kilometers.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:37 pm

    Scorching Power: Russia to Roll Out New Armata-Based Heavy Flamethrower

    A brand-new heavy flame-throwing system will enter service with the Russian Armed Forces in the next few years.

    The Russian Armed Forces is due to get the advanced heavy flame-throwing system Tosochka which will replace the TOS-1A Solntsepyok (Sunheat) heavy flamethrower currently in service.

    RIA Novosti quoted Nikolai Makarovets, chief designer of the Russian research and production association Splav, as saying that the Tosochka heavy flamethrower will be delivered in line with Russia's state armaments program for 2018-2025. Splav is dealing with the development of the Tosochka systems.

    "This is the development of the Solntsepyok project and unlike Solntsepyok, the new system will be equipped with a wheeled chassis. Experience of operating heavy flamethrowers in desert areas has indicated wheeled chassis are the best option," Makarovets during the ongoing MAKS-2017 airshow.

    In an interview with Sputnik, Russian military expert Viktor Murakhovsky specifically focused on characteristics of the Tosochka system.

    Referring to Solntsepyok, he recalled that "the heavy flame-throwing system was first mounted on the chassis of the T-72 battle tank and then – on the T-90 tank's chassis."


    "The main elements of the TOS system include a transport launch canister which contains an unguided rocket equipped with a warhead with a flamethrower-incendiary mixture. There is another option, with a thermobaric warhead which is related to the so-called vacuum ammunition," Murakhovsky said.

    He added that "the next stage of the development of this system stipulates increasing the range of fire and equipping the system with corrected projectiles which hit the target more accurately and effectively."

    According to him, the Tosochka flame-throwing system can be mounted on the sophisticated Armata tracked vehicle platform.

    "Also on the table is the option that one of the vehicles of the Armata family — a new generation of Russian armored vehicles — will also be used as a chassis for the new heavy flame-throwing system," Murakhovsky said.

    He noted that the heavy flame-throwing systems are widely used in the fight against terrorists.

    "For example, the Iraqi Armed Forces used them during the liberation of Mosul, and these systems were also seen in Syria," Murakhovsky concluded.

    The TOS-1A Solntsepyok, in turn, is an upgraded version of the TOS-1 Buratino heavy flame-throwing system which underwent its first combat tests in Afghanistan in 1988-1989.

    In his article for the National Interest last year, defense analyst Sebastien Roblin described the TOS-1 as one of "the most devastating explosive weapons short of tactical nuclear weapons."

    The current effective firing range of the TOS-1A system is about six kilometers. The new shell is expected to increase the new Tosochka flame-throwing system's range to ten kilometers, that is, by 40 percent. The improved range is expected to be achieved in part via a new fuel/explosive mixture inside the shell.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201707221055782339-russia-flamethrower-development-armata-platform/
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:28 pm

    Here a quick question why is it that the west never used a similar system to BM-21? They used systems similar to BM-27 & BM-30 but not the grad. It's almost similar situation with 2S1. Where the west mostly focused on 155mm SP artillery.

    One think you notice is that the soviets/Russia always had loads of Bm-21 and 2S1 to provide commanders and troops on the ground ready fire support. When I was in the forces we had to depend on 81mm mortars. 105mm light gun, AS-90 and MLRS was on the battlefield but when you requested fire support it was normally rejected as some other priority came up which is fine but then troops on the ground suffer and it hampers progress or puts in danger defensive lines. I know British troops would love to have access to 2S1 or Bm-21 as fire support and this would still free up the heavier stuff like AS-90 and MLRS. I always thought that we were always lacking firepower amongst other things. The Soviets even have 120mm mortars and 82mm automatic mortar 2B9 vaselik which I think is brilliant system and more versatile that standard 82mm mortar .
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    Post  Interlinked on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:43 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:Here a quick question why is it that the west never used a similar system to BM-21? They used systems similar to BM-27 & BM-30 but not the grad. It's almost similar situation with 2S1. Where the west mostly focused on 155mm SP artillery.

    One think you notice is that the soviets/Russia always had loads of Bm-21 and 2S1 to provide commanders and troops on the ground ready fire support. When I was in the forces we had to depend on 81mm mortars. 105mm light gun, AS-90 and MLRS was on the battlefield but when you requested fire support it was normally rejected as some other priority came up which is fine but then troops on the ground suffer and it hampers progress or puts in danger defensive lines. I know British troops would love to have access to 2S1 or Bm-21 as fire support and this would still free up the heavier stuff like AS-90 and MLRS. I always thought that we were always lacking firepower amongst other things. The Soviets even have 120mm mortars and 82mm automatic mortar 2B9 vaselik which I think is brilliant system and more versatile that standard 82mm mortar .


    Because they were confident of their fighter bombers, IMO. There are advantages and disadvantages, and it would be great to have both whenever they are needed, but that's the only thing I can think of.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:52 am

    Not strictly true... the West Germans had the LARS system in 110mm calibre.

    Very simply cheap simple weapons don't have enough profit potential so the idea never really took off.

    The US MLRS had an expensive chassis (based on the Bradley IFV which only the US uses so NATO countries adopting MLRS have to adopt a new vehicle too) and rather expensive but still not guided standard missiles and options for much more expensive guided missiles.

    The west also had smaller calibre artillery guns than the 155mm... the British Abbott springs to mind in 105mm.

    Their main problem was lack of an effective gun in a smaller calibre.... the 105 was a good tank gun, but not very efficient in the artillery role.

    The Soviets even have 120mm mortars and 82mm automatic mortar 2B9 vaselik which I think is brilliant system and more versatile that standard 82mm mortar .

    The Germans were so impressed with the fire power of the 120mm mortars they adopted them and deployed them widely during WWII.

    Rockets are very good for delivering a large amount of HE on the target rapidly. Tube artillery was good for hitting specific point targets without using up too much ammo.

    Rockets were also a good way of delivering chem and bio weapons in high concentrations rapidly...  Embarassed

    Because they were confident of their fighter bombers, IMO. There are advantages and disadvantages, and it would be great to have both whenever they are needed, but that's the only thing I can think of.

    That is the difference... the Russian Army does not expect air support 24/7.. the west clearly does.

    The irony is that the west has a powerful air arm but the Soviets had a very powerful air defence capability too... I don't know how long western air power could continue to operate over a battlefield covered in MANPADS and TOR and Tunguska et al.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:36 am

    Interlinked wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Here a quick question why is it that the west never used a similar system to BM-21? They used systems similar to BM-27 & BM-30 but not the grad. It's almost similar situation with 2S1. Where the west mostly focused on 155mm SP artillery.

    One think you notice is that the soviets/Russia always had loads of Bm-21 and 2S1 to provide commanders and troops on the ground ready fire support. When I was in the forces we had to depend on 81mm mortars. 105mm light gun, AS-90 and MLRS was on the battlefield but when you requested fire support it was normally rejected as some other priority came up which is fine but then troops on the ground suffer and it hampers progress or puts in danger defensive lines. I know British troops would love to have access to 2S1 or Bm-21 as fire support and this would still free up the heavier stuff like AS-90 and MLRS. I always thought that we were always lacking firepower amongst other things. The Soviets even have 120mm mortars and 82mm automatic mortar 2B9 vaselik which I think is brilliant system and more versatile that standard 82mm mortar .


    Because they were confident of their fighter bombers, IMO. There are advantages and disadvantages, and it would be great to have both whenever they are needed, but that's the only thing I can think of.

    Hell trying to get aircraft support was even harder than trying to get artillery support. The biggest problem was lack of artillery etc. There just wasn't enough and even was prioritised meaning it was unlikely any help would come a lot of the time we just had to depend on 81mm which the mortar were very accurate with normally on the second round they would be on target and sometimes it took third round but the guys were very good. But lacked power. So the soviets / Russians had it better not only fire power but also having enough to support their troops. They have variety of artillery /missile options as well Mi-24 and Su-25 while we had 81mm mortar, 105mm light gun, AS -90, MLRS, (that's only 4 options in small numbers ) and lynx armed with TOW (apache was just arriving into service) and harriers, tornado, and jaguars. But like I said they were mostly used on pre-planned missions and none these were nothing like Mi-24 or Su-25 which were more suitable for the job.
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    Post  Interlinked on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:33 pm

    d_taddei2 wrote:

    Hell trying to get aircraft support was even harder than trying to get artillery support. The biggest problem was lack of artillery etc. There just wasn't enough and even was prioritised meaning it was unlikely any help would come a lot of the time we just had to depend on 81mm which the mortar were very accurate with normally on the second round they would be on target and sometimes it took third round but the guys were very good. But lacked power. So the soviets / Russians had it better not only fire power but also having enough to support their troops. They have variety of artillery /missile options as well Mi-24 and Su-25 while we had 81mm mortar, 105mm light gun, AS -90,  MLRS, (that's only 4 options in small numbers ) and lynx armed with TOW  (apache was just arriving into service) and harriers, tornado, and jaguars. But like I said they were mostly used on pre-planned missions and none these were nothing like Mi-24 or Su-25 which were more suitable for the job.


    Absolutely true. Getting timely air support usually means that the appropriate type of aircraft needs to be loitering around the area, which most were not suited for if they were carrying a heavy payload. If they replace some of their payload with drop tanks, they can loiter longer but can't hit hard, or they can't go back for a second run if their first was not effective. Also, it was difficult if not impossible to prevent an artillery attack on your positions whereas it was possible to deter aircraft by employing heavy anti-aircraft systems or by incurring heavy losses, which are much harder to replace than tube or rocket artillery. But even if the anti-aircraft systems could not reliably shoot you down, being painted by powerful radar stations would make most pilots bugger off immediately. A stream of tracers flying at you would do the job as well. Countering the radar stations would require having a specialized ECM escort, but how many of those are available? With hindsight, it's obvious that investing in artillery was definitely the more rational choice.

    Soviet artillery was also just better. There's no other way to put it. Early on, the 130mm M-46 outranged practically all Western artillery pieces, even 155mm guns developed decades later like the M198. Newer guns like the Giatsint-B not only outranged all 155mm guns, but also featured innovations like a powered chain rammer so that a high rate of fire could be sustained. Red Army soldiers also had the fortune of having MT-LBs to tow those field guns. They could get artillery support practically everywhere, and fast moving divisions could be supported by the amphibious Gvozdika.
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    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:33 pm

    OmskTransmash has undertaken a "large-scale" overhaul and modernization program of TOS-1A MRLS for the Russian MoD. First batch of modernized TOS-1A MRL systems will be handed over to the MoD by the end of November 2017.

    http://transmash-omsk.ru/node/878
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    Post  Interlinked on Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:27 am

    "Changes have affected both the appearance and internal equipment of combat vehicles. At TOS-1A modern power plant and dynamic protection are installed. Heavy flamethrower received a new launcher, and the transport-loading machine of the complex - a crane."

    I hope that the reloading method has been improved. It's so much faster to be able to replace an entire rocket pack instead of loading them one by one.
    d_taddei2
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:10 am

    Interlinked wrote:"Changes have affected both the appearance and internal equipment of combat vehicles. At TOS-1A modern power plant and dynamic protection are installed. Heavy flamethrower received a new launcher, and the transport-loading machine of the complex - a crane."

    I hope that the reloading method has been improved. It's so much faster to be able to replace an entire rocket pack instead of loading them one by one.


    Is this the upgrade that includes extended range I think read it will be extended to
    12km-1 5km
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:28 am

    Military tests of MLRS "Tornado-S" were conducted in Syria

    Russian MRLS: Grad, Uragan, Smerch, Tornado-G/S - Page 7 5075153_original
    On December 25, 2017, during a speech on the occasion of summing up the results of the work of NPO SPLAV JSC (Russia, Tula) in 2017, the general director Vladimir Nikolaevich Lepin announced the information about the combat use of the Tornado- generation during the fighting in the Syrian Arab Republic (RAA).

    In general, from the report of the CEO of the lead developer of rocket launcher systems in Russia, it follows that the company is developing steadily and has the potential to expand its scope of activities.

    For the first time an event of this kind was held outside the territory of the enterprise - in the building of the House of Culture of Railway Workers (DKJ) of the Hero City of Tula. During the event, the ceremony of awarding the employees of the enterprise was held, as well as a concert and entertainment program, the main participant of which was the legendary Soviet and Russian group "Samotsvety" under Yuri Malikov.

    In 2017, the specialists of SPlAV NPO (Russia, Tula) and related enterprises with positive results completed the state tests of the new, Tornado-S ramp-up rocket reaction system.

    According to the general director of NPO SPLAV JSC Vladimir Nikolaevich Lepin, the system "has already set a new vector in the development of multiple launch systems not only in our country, but in the whole world."

    ccording to the newspaper "Novosti" Splava "from December 21, 2017 (newspaper of the JSC" NPO "SPLAV"), it is possible to shoot from a BM Tornado-S system for a longer range than from the Smerch MiGS and cover with one volley a volley of what - one BM, battery or division is not specified) an area of ​​about 100 football fields. The design of each projectile includes a flight control system.

    According to the general director of the lead developer of the MLRS in Russia V.N. Lepin, the Tornado-S combat vehicle is completely autonomous and equipped with equipment that ensures the performance of combat missions without the exit of calculation numbers from the cabin. The location of the BM on the firing position is a few minutes. After completing the combat mission, it "moves to a new location, without waiting until the shells hit the target."

    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/news/tornado-s

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3020438.html
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:47 am

    MOSCOW, January 12. /TASS/. Russia’s Splav Research and Production Association has starting developing a prototype of the next-generation wheeled-chassis heavy flame-throwing system dubbed Tosochka, CEO of Techmash Holding Company Vladimir Lepin said on Friday.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/984803

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