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    Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:01 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:If the plan is for 700 fighters (all in) it's a low number.
    NATO, USAFE and one CBG provide a much larger fighter fleet that covers a much smaller geography.


    Nato doesn't have air defence system.

    So, it is a compromise.

    It does, it's called an Air Force and Navy.

    Not comparable.

    S-400 radar cost as much as a fighter jet, and more capable than anything that you can fit onto an airplane.

    And it can work for decades.

    The navy can cover only fraction of the land mass,and it is pretty useless against stealth aircraft, due to the distance deficiency.

    It's the same if not better.
    Tens of ships SM-3/6 or Aster 30 and nearly a thousand of planes with AIM-120, Meteor and so on. It works and spreads the risk quite well.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:36 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:If the plan is for 700 fighters (all in) it's a low number.
    NATO, USAFE and one CBG provide a much larger fighter fleet that covers a much smaller geography.


    Nato doesn't have air defence system.

    So, it is a compromise.

    It does, it's called an Air Force and Navy.

    Not comparable.

    S-400 radar cost as much as a fighter jet, and more capable than anything that you can fit onto an airplane.

    And it can work for decades.







    The navy can cover only fraction of the land mass,and it is pretty useless against stealth aircraft, due to the distance deficiency.

    you are correct on this. The air defense systems coverage of Russia is the best in the  world and would supplement the air force in protecting Russia's airspace at similar ranges as the top of the line fighters, while also quick to launch and rearm.  But still, having a ton of jets is extremely useful and 700 still doesn't quite fit it.

    But as mentioned before, all of this can be ignored anyway as it as mentioned in Georges link above, under comments section - another unnamed source which is usually a way for articles to peddle bullshit. So in other words, no. This article is BS.  As well, that is evident by the numbers they are suggesting of other aircraft and even new ones. Majority of new jets fly much longer than 10 years. As well, they only account 50 PAK FA which we all know will be way more, but after 2025. Add to that, it won't make the other jets obsolete either.

    I imagine they are not mentioning the jets that are possibly currently used buy basic models. I know some MiG-25s still used.  Also, Francos numbers are very accurate so worth mentioning.

    The other person whom is correct is KVS. Any conflict with Russia and NATO would go nuclear pretty darn quickly which would spell the end for everyone. So it is a good deterrent till they get their entire forces in both numbers and new systems.
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:17 pm

    franco wrote:
    eehnie wrote:This is not including other types of aircrafts, but also it includes not the numbers about the reserve fighters. According to the current numbers of decent public sources, with the ne production explained in the article, Russia can reach the saturation of their reserves of Air Superiority + Interceptor + Multirole Fighters. Russia would have then roughly another 700 aircrafts of these types in the reserve by 2025 (Su-33, Su-27. MiG-29/35, MiG-31, MiG-25 and MiG-23). While obviously would be older than the active aircrafts, all these models remain useful as combat concept if mantained properly.

    PS1: I'm not sure about the Su-33 being totally removed from the active service.
    PS2: Note that by 2025 it is possible to have the first unit of the MiG-41 (interceptor).

    IMO you are being very optimistic concerning the reserve aircraft and the important point is "if maintained properly". They were not and now most are useless pieces of metal.

    I was not assuming a good condition of units in the reserve. Still it is necessary to take into account that 221 of the aircrafts in the potential reserve by 2025 (20 Su-33, 90 Su-27 and 111 MiG-29/35) are today in active service, which is not a bad start point to keep them in good condition. And the rest would not be as old as many people think. In overall terms the projected reserve for 2025 would be:

    20 Su-33
    176 Su-27
    269 MiG-29/35
    102 MiG-31
    015+ MiG-25
    200+ MiG-23

    Russia would be able to reach 750 active aircrafts by 2025 with the projected rytm of production only keeping the Su-33 and some Su-27 more in active service. For a total of around 1500 Air Superiority + Interceptors + Multirole Fighters.


    Last edited by eehnie on Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:47 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:

    It's the same if not better.
    Tens of ships SM-3/6 or Aster 30 and nearly a thousand of planes with AIM-120, Meteor and so on. It works and spreads the risk quite well.

    Basic geometry: The ship on the sea is on sea level ,means the radar of the ship is on lower elevation the the land ( the land by definition has higher elevation than the sea : ) )

    Means that a ship behind a peninsula can't see anything behind the land .

    Means that the AB needs helicopters to deliver the targeting data, with rubbish/small radars, and the whole AB become an extremely expensive sitting duck rocket transporter ship.

    So, inefficient, expensive .

    And the long range rockets are useful against slow, big targets with random movements,or fast ,small targets with predictable trajectory.

    The backfire big, fast and move randomly (because it has radar and electronics, and can "see" the interceptor missile)

    Means that it is quite hard to kill.

    As soon as it see the SAM it push down the nose of the aircraft, switch on the back-burner , speed up to 1.88 Mach , and start to pull high g manoeuvrers with chaffs .

    An AWACS or anti submarine aircraft can't do this.

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:48 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    franco wrote:
    eehnie wrote:This is not including other types of aircrafts, but also it includes not the numbers about the reserve fighters. According to the current numbers of decent public sources, with the ne production explained in the article, Russia can reach the saturation of their reserves of Air Superiority + Interceptor + Multirole Fighters. Russia would have then roughly another 700 aircrafts of these types in the reserve by 2025 (Su-33, Su-27. MiG-29/35, MiG-31, MiG-25 and MiG-23). While obviously would be older than the active aircrafts, all these models remain useful as combat concept if mantained properly.

    PS1: I'm not sure about the Su-33 being totally removed from the active service.
    PS2: Note that by 2025 it is possible to have the first unit of the MiG-41 (interceptor).

    IMO you are being very optimistic concerning the reserve aircraft and the important point is "if maintained properly". They were not and now most are useless pieces of metal.

    I was not assuming a good condition of units in the reserve. Still it is necessary to take into account that 220 of the aircrafts in the potential reserve by 2025 (20 Su-33, 90 Su-27 and 110 MiG-29/35) are today in active service, which is not a bad start point to keep them in good condition. And the rest would not be as old as many people think. In overall terms the projected reserve for 2025 would be:

    20 Su-23
    176 Su-27
    269 MiG-29/35
    100 MiG-31
    015+ MiG-25
    200+ MiG-23

    Russia would be able to reach 750 active aircrafts by 2025 with the projected rytm of production only keeping the Su-33 and some Su-27 more in active service. For a total of around 1500 Air Superiority + Interceptors + Multirole Fighters.

    Russian navy has 360 aircrafts as well .
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:51 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:

    It's the same if not better.
    Tens of ships SM-3/6 or Aster 30 and nearly a thousand of planes with AIM-120, Meteor and so on. It works and spreads the risk quite well.

    Basic geometry: The ship on the sea is on sea level ,means the radar of the ship is on lower elevation the the land ( the land by definition has higher elevation than the sea : ) )

    Means that a ship behind a peninsula can't see anything behind the land .

    Means that the AB needs helicopters to deliver the targeting data, with rubbish/small radars, and the whole AB become an extremely expensive sitting duck rocket transporter ship.

    So, inefficient, expensive .

    And the long range rockets are useful against slow, big targets with random movements,or fast ,small targets with predictable trajectory.

    The backfire big, fast and move randomly (because it has radar and electronics, and can "see" the interceptor missile)

    Means that it is quite hard to kill.

    As soon as it see the SAM it push down the nose of the aircraft, switch on the back-burner , speed up to 1.88 Mach , and start to pull high g manoeuvrers with chaffs .

    An AWACS or anti submarine aircraft can't do this.


    A fighter or a UAV can deliver data to an SM-3/6. Anything can, it's efficient enough to bring some Backfires down before they know it.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:59 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:

    It's the same if not better.
    Tens of ships SM-3/6 or Aster 30 and nearly a thousand of planes with AIM-120, Meteor and so on. It works and spreads the risk quite well.

    Basic geometry: The ship on the sea is on sea level ,means the radar of the ship is on lower elevation the the land ( the land by definition has higher elevation than the sea : ) )

    Means that a ship behind a peninsula can't see anything behind the land .

    Means that the AB needs helicopters to deliver the targeting data, with rubbish/small radars, and the whole AB become an extremely expensive sitting duck rocket transporter ship.

    So, inefficient, expensive .

    And the long range rockets are useful against slow, big targets with random movements,or fast ,small targets with predictable trajectory.

    The backfire big, fast and move randomly (because it has radar and electronics, and can "see" the interceptor missile)

    Means that it is quite hard to kill.

    As soon as it see the SAM it push down the nose of the aircraft, switch on the back-burner , speed up to 1.88 Mach , and start to pull high g manoeuvrers with chaffs .

    An AWACS or anti submarine aircraft can't do this.


    A fighter or a UAV can deliver data to an SM-3/6. Anything can, it's efficient enough to bring some Backfires down before they know it.

    No. No it cannot. It has to use its own radar system from the ship.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:05 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:No.  No it cannot.  It has to use its own radar system from the ship.

    Sure it can.

    A Monday test pairing a Lockheed Martin F-35B Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) with an Aegis Combat System armed with a Raytheon Standard Missile-6 is the latest step in expanding how the Navy and Marine Corps will share data on future battlefields.Using targeting information transmitted from the Marine Corps F-35B, the Navy’s Aegis test site at the White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico launched an SM-6 anti-air missile and struck a Beechcraft MQM-107 target representing an adversarial fighter.



    https://news.usni.org/2016/09/13/video-successful-f-35-sm-6-live-fire-test-points-expansion-networked-naval-warfare

    It's a brave new world welcome
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    eehnie

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  eehnie on Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:51 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    franco wrote:
    eehnie wrote:This is not including other types of aircrafts, but also it includes not the numbers about the reserve fighters. According to the current numbers of decent public sources, with the ne production explained in the article, Russia can reach the saturation of their reserves of Air Superiority + Interceptor + Multirole Fighters. Russia would have then roughly another 700 aircrafts of these types in the reserve by 2025 (Su-33, Su-27. MiG-29/35, MiG-31, MiG-25 and MiG-23). While obviously would be older than the active aircrafts, all these models remain useful as combat concept if mantained properly.

    PS1: I'm not sure about the Su-33 being totally removed from the active service.
    PS2: Note that by 2025 it is possible to have the first unit of the MiG-41 (interceptor).

    IMO you are being very optimistic concerning the reserve aircraft and the important point is "if maintained properly". They were not and now most are useless pieces of metal.

    I was not assuming a good condition of units in the reserve. Still it is necessary to take into account that 220 of the aircrafts in the potential reserve by 2025 (20 Su-33, 90 Su-27 and 110 MiG-29/35) are today in active service, which is not a bad start point to keep them in good condition. And the rest would not be as old as many people think. In overall terms the projected reserve for 2025 would be:

    20 Su-23
    176 Su-27
    269 MiG-29/35
    100 MiG-31
    015+ MiG-25
    200+ MiG-23

    Russia would be able to reach 750 active aircrafts by 2025 with the projected rytm of production only keeping the Su-33 and some Su-27 more in active service. For a total of around 1500 Air Superiority + Interceptors + Multirole Fighters.

    Russian navy has 360 aircrafts as well .

    The units of aircarfts of these cathegories in the Naval Aviation are included in these data.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:43 am

    Not quite. Since it doesn't mention about the Su-24's or Su-34's.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:59 am


    F-35 has a detction range less than 130 km.

    And the AB has only helicopter.


    Additionaly a supersonic aircraft if quite hard to shoot down with long range slow rockets.

    Tnd the sm-6 has less than 500 km range, less than the possible antiship weapons. : )

    So, nice and good, work on paper, but has a probability like to win on lottery. one nimitz can survive with the targeting data received from the F-35.

    The other nine will follow a trajectory perpendicular to the surface of water.

    Probability.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:13 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:No.  No it cannot.  It has to use its own radar system from the ship.

    Sure it can.

    A Monday test pairing a Lockheed Martin F-35B Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) with an Aegis Combat System armed with a Raytheon Standard Missile-6 is the latest step in expanding how the Navy and Marine Corps will share data on future battlefields.Using targeting information transmitted from the Marine Corps F-35B, the Navy’s Aegis test site at the White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico launched an SM-6 anti-air missile and struck a Beechcraft MQM-107 target representing an adversarial fighter.



    https://news.usni.org/2016/09/13/video-successful-f-35-sm-6-live-fire-test-points-expansion-networked-naval-warfare

    It's a brave new world welcome

    Not that impressive since Russians could do the same then with whatever they have and their growing net centric systems along with S-400. What I am getting at, it simply will be sending info to the onboard radar systems of the ship of data it picks up of enemy locations. But then again, you need the jets to be in the area to pick up the enemy. In a lot of cases, they will be in hot zones where the enemy can detect and engage them. Great against third worlders. Not so much against Russia, China or a lot of others who have the ability to track and engage these enemy jets far.
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    mack8

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  mack8 on Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:34 pm

    First, can you please not derail this topic posting about american crap? This is about VKS.

    Secondly, i was trying to find the number of Su-34 in service at the moment to add to the number above regarding VKS fighter types. On bmpd someone said that including Su-34 there would be 333 modern fighters/fighter-bombers, so in addition to the 246 modern fighters there are also 87 Su-34 in service? Separately though, i have also found the figures of 100 and 103 Su-34s existant at the moment respectively, presumably these including the prototype/preseries machines too?
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    franco

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  franco on Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:37 pm

    mack8 wrote:First, can you please not derail this topic posting about american crap? This is about VKS.

    Secondly, i was trying to find the number of Su-34 in service at the moment to add to the number above regarding VKS fighter types. On bmpd someone said that including Su-34 there would be 333 modern fighters/fighter-bombers, so in addition to the 246 modern fighters there are also 87 Su-34 in service? Separately though, i have also found the figures of 100 and 103 Su-34s existant at the moment respectively, presumably these including the prototype/preseries machines too?

    Those last numbers do include the prototypes also, don't have a updated total at the moment but 87 would be close.
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    mack8

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  mack8 on Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:38 pm

    Thanks Franco, and keep up the good work.

    Just a small reply to something i have read above regarding potential reserves, from what i have gathered over the years i don't think any of the older types mentioned, although nominally classed as reserves, have any reasonable chance of being brought back into service by VKS. Certainly not things like MiG-23 and MiG-25, as for retired Su-27, MiG-29 and MiG-31, usually they are retired because of expired life, and usually end up recycled for spares isn't it? It would be very expensive and time consuming to bring them back in service as they would require extensive overhauls (especially as many are stored in open air and degrade under the elements), so i don't think VKS would do that. My opinion anyway.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  George1 on Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:18 pm

    2016 Deliveries UPDATE

    MiG-29SMT: 2
    Su-30SM: 15. 5 to Ru Navy and 10 to RuAF (8 of them to Russian Kinghts)
    Su-35S: 8
    Su-34: 16


    Last edited by George1 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:06 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    marat

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  marat on Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:06 pm

    Are those Mig 29 SMT new or modernized old airframes?

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:49 pm

    marat wrote:Are those Mig 29 SMT new or modernized old airframes?
    These are old airframes that weren't completed and remained in the factory for decades. In a way they are new, in the sense that these frames never flew, never logged hours or cycles, but on the other hand they don't have the more structurally advanced frames of the MiG-29K and MiG-35.
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:25 pm

    2016 Deliveries UPDATE

    MiG-29SMT: 2
    Su-30SM: 17. 7 to Ru Navy and 10 to RuAF (8 of them to Russian Kinghts)
    Su-35S: 8
    Su-34: 16

    now we expect all remained MiG-29SMTs, 2 Su-35s and 2 additional Su-34s


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    George1

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:25 am

    2016 Deliveries UPDATE

    MiG-29SMT: 12

    Su-30SM: 17. 7 to Ru Navy and 10 to RuAF (8 of them to Russian Kinghts)
    Su-35S: 8
    Su-34: 16


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    franco

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  franco on Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:26 pm

    Air Force Numbers and Procurement Updates

    Su-35S
    - 3 squadrons operational (Dzemgi x2, Uglovaya)
    - 1 squadron forming Besovets
    - Millerovo has been mentioned as possibly being next
    - 53-57 in service, 98 ordered in total

    Su-30SM
    - 4 squadrons operational (Millerovo x2, Domna x2)
    - 1 squadron was to have been formed in Uglovaya (status unknown)
    - Khalino has been mentioned as possibly being next
    - 64-68 in service, 88 ordered in total

    Su-30M2
    - used as 2 seat unit trainer
    - 20 in service, 20 ordered in total

    Mig-29SMT / UBM
    - 3 squadrons operational (Khalino x2, Astrakhan)
    - Astrakhan squadron appears to be joint training / combat unit
    - 44 / 8 in service, 44 & 8 ordered in total

    Su-27SM3
    - 1 squadron operational (Krimsk)
    - new squadron to be formed in 2017, Belbek mentioned
    - 12-15 in service plus 1 UBM, 36 more to be rebuilt from Su-27P frames

    Su-27SM
    - 2 squadrons operational (Belbek, Uglovaya)
    - 2 squadrons forming (Besovets, Khotilovo) Transferring aircraft from Uglovaya & Dzemgi
    - 48-51 in service (variance same as Su-27SM3, possible 2-3 SM's upgraded to SM3's)

    Mig-31BM
    - 7 squadrons operational (Uglovaya, Kansk x2, Monchegorsk, Khotilovo x2, Savostleyka)
    - 3 squadrons converting (Bolshoye Savino x2, Elizovo)
    - Savostleyka squadron appears to be a joint training / combat unit
    - 95-98 in service, orders to convert a total of 113 aircraft

    Su-34
    - 6 squadrons operational (Voronezh x2, Morozovsk x3, Khurba)
    - 2nd squadron forming in Khurba
    - Chelyabinsk is mentioned as being next
    - 89-95 in service, 124 ordered in total

    Su-25SM / SM3
    - total of 9 squadrons and 1 flight operational
    - total of 80 some converted to SM standard and first SM3's arrived this year
    - units are most likely a mix of upgraded Su-25SM with basic Su-25's
    - only a couple of Su-25UB's upgraded to UBM standard
    - plans to convert 40-60 to SM3 standards

    Naval Aviation Numbers and Procurement Updates

    Mig-29K/KUB
    - 2 squadrons operational (Severomorsk)
    - 23 in service, 24 ordered in total

    Su-30SM
    - 1 squadron operational (Saki)
    - 2 squadrons forming (Severomorsk, Chernyakhovsk)
    - 15 in service, 28 ordered in total
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:53 pm

    franco wrote:Mig-29K/KUB
    - 2 squadrons operational (Severomorsk)
    - 23 in service, 24 ordered in total

    This is an example how cited squadrons and operational numbers don't add up across the board.
    Why are they forming fast-jet fighter and strike squadrons with such low (12-15) numbers of aircraft? Suspect

    Same for the Su-34, they seem to field severely under-strength squadrons as if they are Hungary or something. unshaven
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    mack8

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  mack8 on Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:39 pm

    A fantastic update as always Franco, many thanks!

    May i ask, do you have similar details for VMF Su-33 and if possible Tu-142 and Il-38, and also for DA Tu-160, Tu-22M and Tu-95s? Also, any figures for Yak-130 too?
    I know some time back you said helicopters are much harder to track, so i'm not going to ask about them again, though of course, any numbers would be most welcomed!

    Thank again for the great work you are doing, your number crunching is probably the most accurate one can get on VKS and VMF.
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    mack8

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  mack8 on Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:42 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    franco wrote:Mig-29K/KUB
    - 2 squadrons operational (Severomorsk)
    - 23 in service, 24 ordered in total

    This is an example how cited squadrons and operational numbers don't add up across the board.
    Why are they forming fast-jet fighter and strike squadrons with such low (12-15) numbers of aircraft? Suspect

    Same for the Su-34, they seem to field severely under-strength squadrons as if they are Hungary or something. unshaven

    VKS and VMF tactical squadrons usually number 12 aircraft each, that is their organization. A regiment has 2 or 3 squadrons, usually 24-36 aircraft in total.
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    Isos

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    Re: Russian Air Force numbers and procurement plans

    Post  Isos on Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:49 pm

    WTF, where are the 400+ Mig29 and 400+ Su-27 from cold war ??? Do they still use them or are they keeped in "storage" (i.e outdoor suffering from weather) ?

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