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    Su-35S: News

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:39 am

    Rafale Sensor Fusion is Impressive , Thought would ask if Su-35 has any thing similar in Sensor Fusion ?

    Errr... Soviet fighter planes had sensor fusion since the early 1980s.

    I think you are referring to data fusion... the IRST and radar and helmet mounted sights on MiG-29s and Su-27s are linked so a lock can be gained by any of the three and handed over to another for tracking or ranging purposes.

    For instance if it is heavy cloud the radar can scan for and lock a target, or in clear weather a target can be sighted with the HMS or IRST and missile seekers directed to look at the target for a lock and then be launched.

    All the systems and equipment on an aircraft generate an enormous amount of information... much of which is not important except at very specific times... of course altitude low is always an important warning, but when you are chasing an air target you don't want to be reminded that you are x number of kilometres off course...

    The datafusion in the Su-35 should be excellent as it is based on the first generation equipment fitted to the PAK FA. There is a reason that the Su-35 is single seat only... and that is the same reason the PAK FA is single seat only.

    They have already mentioned that the avionics is optimised for one crewman and is highly automated.

    The PAK FA and Su-35 are designed to be single seat fully multirole or as some in the west omnirole aircraft... ie are designed for multiple different roles in one mission... ie might carry an attack missile or weapon and then fly air cover for the next wave while performing a jamming or EW role at the same time.
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    Post  medo on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:36 pm

    After introducing L-150 Pastel RWR, modern Russian fighters receive similar sensor fusion and they don't need special RWR indicator like with old SPO-15 Beryoza. All informations now are integrated in situational picture, which show all informations collected from different sensors. Pastel is also used for launching anti-radar missiles and the newest versions could as well be used for launching new R-77-1 missiles, so it is well connected into main FCS computer, which collect and fuse together all information from all sensors on board as well as from data link. Su-35 also have MAWS and LWR sensors, which cover whole sphere around jet, so it is no worse in its capabilities than Rafale. Only thing it lack is DIRCM, but on the other hand we do not know, how effective are new flares against new IIR homing head AAMs.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri May 20, 2016 4:14 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Austin wrote:Sorry I dont want to cross link this from other board but rather then copy pasting it thought would do justice linking it

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?134900-Rafale-news-amp-discussion-part-XVI&p=2308685#post2308685

    Rafale Sensor Fusion is Impressive , Thought would ask if Su-35 has any thing similar in Sensor Fusion ?

    To certain extend only i am afraid. Russians are still to master real data fusion that West was very keen on developing last 2 decades. But they are getting better. Data fusion requires very fast data bus and some high end processors, many of them actually, hyper threading is the key. Naturally some high end programming too.

    That's a bizarre conclusion considering the Su-35 has longer ranged nose mounted radar compared to it's Western counterparts, L-band AESA in it's leading edge of its wings, IRST as well as it's designed to be integrated into VKS IADs C4, if anything it says that planes like Su-35 has superior sensor fusion not inferior. PAK-FA should be able to surpass that especially when KRET (in the 2018-2020 time frame) will be introducing ROFAR based smart-skin suite.
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    Post  Guest on Fri May 20, 2016 4:33 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Austin wrote:Sorry I dont want to cross link this from other board but rather then copy pasting it thought would do justice linking it

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?134900-Rafale-news-amp-discussion-part-XVI&p=2308685#post2308685

    Rafale Sensor Fusion is Impressive , Thought would ask if Su-35 has any thing similar in Sensor Fusion ?

    To certain extend only i am afraid. Russians are still to master real data fusion that West was very keen on developing last 2 decades. But they are getting better. Data fusion requires very fast data bus and some high end processors, many of them actually, hyper threading is the key. Naturally some high end programming too.

    That's a bizarre conclusion considering the Su-35 has longer ranged nose mounted radar compared to it's Western counterparts, L-band AESA in it's leading edge of its wings, IRST as well as it's designed to be integrated into VKS IADs C4, if anything it says that planes like Su-35 has superior sensor fusion not inferior. PAK-FA should be able to surpass that especially when KRET (in the 2018-2020 time frame) will be introducing ROFAR based smart-skin suite.

    One thing is having various sensors with their certain characteristics, totally different thing is having real efficient fusion on that data you are recieving from those sensors.

    Su-35 is good step up compared to previous Russian designs, however they still have alot to improve and learn. Filtering false inputs, filtering clutter, filtering background noises, crossmatching various "there-not_there" inputs to form information, then organising whole that data to be shown on HUD and HMS, but that way so it does not overflow the pilot.... Its alot more complicated and harder to do than it sounds.
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    Post  Book. on Fri May 20, 2016 6:11 am

    Software glitch causes F-35 to incorrectly detect targets in formation
    Published March 25, 2015

    Here: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2015/03/25/software-glitch-causes..

    Engineers are trying to fix the F-35’s software package after it was discovered the sensors for the Joint Strike Fighter malfunction when detecting targets when the aircraft flies in formation.

    Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, Program Executive Officer, F-35, said he didn’t have a date when the correction would be made. However, he said the problem would not delay the declaration of the Marine variant of the aircraft, the F-35B, ready for combat.

    “When you have two, three or four F-35s looking at the same threat, they don’t all see it exactly the same because of the angles that they are looking at and what their sensors pick up,” Bogdan told reporters Tuesday. “When there is a slight difference in what those four airplanes might be seeing, the fusion model can’t decide if it’s one threat or more than one threat. If two airplanes are looking at the same thing, they see it slightly differently because of the physics of it.”

    For example, if a group of F-35s detect a single ground threat such as anti-aircraft weaponry, the sensors on the planes may have trouble distinguishing whether it was an isolated threat or several objects, Bogdan explained....

    US poor code.  study

    Su 35 ready. F35 no

    medo wrote:After introducing L-150 Pastel RWR, modern Russian fighters receive similar sensor fusion and they don't need special RWR indicator like with old SPO-15 Beryoza. All informations now are integrated in situational picture, which show all informations collected from different sensors. Pastel is also used for launching anti-radar missiles and the newest versions could as well be used for launching new R-77-1 missiles, so it is well connected into main FCS computer, which collect and fuse together all information from all sensors on board as well as from data link. Su-35 also have MAWS and LWR sensors, which cover whole sphere around jet, so it is no worse in its capabilities than Rafale. Only thing it lack is DIRCM, but on the other hand we do not know, how effective are new flares against new IIR homing head AAMs.

    russia

    Militarov wrote:One thing is having various sensors with their certain characteristics, totally different thing is having real efficient fusion on that data you are recieving from those sensors.

    Su-35 is good step up compared to previous Russian designs, however they still have alot to improve and learn. Filtering false inputs, filtering clutter, filtering background noises, crossmatching various "there-not_there" inputs to form information, then organising whole that data to be shown on HUD and HMS, but that way so it does not overflow the pilot.... Its alot more complicated and harder to do than it sounds.

    I agree. Su 35 Mig 29k sensor good thumbsup
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    Post  Austin on Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

    Any idea how DIRCM works in conjuction with MAWS ? I see PAK-FA with DIRCM & MAWS plus Ka-52 and Mi-8 has DIRCM/MAWS ?
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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri May 20, 2016 9:17 am

    Militarov wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Austin wrote:Sorry I dont want to cross link this from other board but rather then copy pasting it thought would do justice linking it

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?134900-Rafale-news-amp-discussion-part-XVI&p=2308685#post2308685

    Rafale Sensor Fusion is Impressive , Thought would ask if Su-35 has any thing similar in Sensor Fusion ?

    To certain extend only i am afraid. Russians are still to master real data fusion that West was very keen on developing last 2 decades. But they are getting better. Data fusion requires very fast data bus and some high end processors, many of them actually, hyper threading is the key. Naturally some high end programming too.

    That's a bizarre conclusion considering the Su-35 has longer ranged nose mounted radar compared to it's Western counterparts, L-band AESA in it's leading edge of its wings, IRST as well as it's designed to be integrated into VKS IADs C4, if anything it says that planes like Su-35 has superior sensor fusion not inferior. PAK-FA should be able to surpass that especially when KRET (in the 2018-2020 time frame) will be introducing ROFAR based smart-skin suite.

    One thing is having various sensors with their certain characteristics, totally different thing is having real efficient fusion on that data you are recieving from those sensors.

    Su-35 is good step up compared to previous Russian designs, however they still have alot to improve and learn. Filtering false inputs, filtering clutter, filtering background noises, crossmatching various "there-not_there" inputs to form information, then organising whole that data to be shown on HUD and HMS, but that way so it does not overflow the pilot.... Its alot more complicated and harder to do than it sounds.

    Too much filtering and too much reliance on technology:
    - Things will not work as expected
    - The opponent will find ways to fool the gadgets
    - The pilot may begin to have doubts on the system provided information during crucial times
    - More things to break down
    - Who needs pilots anymore?
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    Post  sepheronx on Fri May 20, 2016 9:21 am

    Answer to last one is that if no Pilot, planes are going to have a hard time in the future due to electronic warfare. This over reliance on such unmanned technology is a curse more so an answer. EW equipment is getting very sophisticated. Apparently Russia's new EW systems can shut down various subsystems and satellite systems. So imagine what else it could do.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 20, 2016 11:29 am

    Militarov wrote: One thing is having various sensors with their certain characteristics, totally different thing is having real efficient fusion on that data you are recieving from those sensors.

    Su-35 is good step up compared to previous Russian designs, however they still have alot to improve and learn. Filtering false inputs, filtering clutter, filtering background noises, crossmatching various "there-not_there" inputs to form information, then organising whole that data to be shown on HUD and HMS, but that way so it does not overflow the pilot.... Its alot more complicated and harder to do than it sounds.


    no question about level of integration complicity but what is hard basis for statement that Russians have yet to reach current French level? so far I saw marketing oriented discussion with link you provided earlier on but any real comparison?
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    Post  Guest on Fri May 20, 2016 3:10 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:

    Too much filtering and too much reliance on technology:
    - Things will not work as expected
    - The opponent will find ways to fool the gadgets
    - The pilot may begin to have doubts on the system provided information during crucial times
    - More things to break down
    - Who needs pilots anymore?

    Data fusion also means you share sensor pickups with other platforms, UAVs, ground surveilance equipment and teams, AWACs, satelites, naval assets and all in real time and you have symbols showing you from which sensors or external feed is that data coming, its extremly useful, beyond imagination, however it needs to be done properly, its mostly software oriented problem tho.

    Ofc things wont work as expected, what does? Thats why you need decades of experience with certain technology to iron it down.

    They cant fool all of them, also there is reason why i said various filters must exist to remove false data, clutter etc, to deal with deception.

    Data fusion does not require special hardware on its own, just needs more powerful computers, you still use your HUD and HMS as we do today, not much more to "break".

    Pilots will be around for long time Smile
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    Post  Austin on Fri May 20, 2016 4:50 pm

    I dont understand how is EO DAS technology in JSF is different from that on PAK-FA ? Does it provide 360 * video picture of outside wearing a helmet on PAK-FA besides other things like MAWS.

    Every one claims it has Sensor Fusion , Some say it is just data co-relation and not real sensor fusion , They say only JSF has real sensor fusion and as such is miles ahead of any thing out there
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    Post  TheArmenian on Fri May 20, 2016 9:26 pm

    The quality of the fused data will depend on the quality of individual bits gathered by the various sensors.
    In other words, the fused information can be completely wrong if too much filtration and elimination is happening.
    Small errors at the individual sensor level will result into huge errors at the fused level.
    In my opinion, the pilot's brain should be doing the fusion of the various information/data gathred by the various sensors.
    No machine, device or technology can replace the human brain.
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    Post  franco on Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:07 pm

    MOSCOW, June 3 -. The pilots Western military district ( ZVO ) trained management with the latest multi-purpose fighter Su-35 in the Lipetsk center, which will go into service ZVO end of this year, said the head of the press service of the district Igor Mugina.

    In the theoretical lessons pilots mastered the tactical and technical characteristics of the aircraft, especially its piloting and technological base.

    "After passing the theory of aircraft crews have passed a specialized course on the ground simulators, performing flights on a circle, along the route and in the zone, as well as worked to intercept air targets", - he said.

    Two managers of Su-35 advanced multi-role super-maneuverable fighter planned to introduce in the fighter units of mixed aviation division ZVO end of this year.

    NOTE: Besovets is the rumored location of the next Su-35 unit to be formed.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:34 pm

    franco wrote:MOSCOW, June 3 -. The pilots Western military district ( ZVO ) trained management with the latest multi-purpose fighter Su-35 in the Lipetsk center, which will go into service ZVO end of this year, said the head of the press service of the district Igor Mugina.

    In the theoretical lessons pilots mastered the tactical and technical characteristics of the aircraft, especially its piloting and technological base.

    "After passing the theory of aircraft crews have passed a specialized course on the ground simulators, performing flights on a circle, along the route and in the zone, as well as worked to intercept air targets", - he said.

    Two managers of Su-35 advanced multi-role super-maneuverable fighter planned to introduce in the fighter units of mixed aviation division ZVO end of this year.

    NOTE: Besovets is the rumored location of the next Su-35 unit to be formed.

    How much time do they need to be ablle to fly it ? Lot of training can be done on ground for instruments (using radar and cumputers) training or do they need to fly to use them ?
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    Post  franco on Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:50 pm

    Isos wrote:
    franco wrote:MOSCOW, June 3 -. The pilots Western military district ( ZVO ) trained management with the latest multi-purpose fighter Su-35 in the Lipetsk center, which will go into service ZVO end of this year, said the head of the press service of the district Igor Mugina.

    In the theoretical lessons pilots mastered the tactical and technical characteristics of the aircraft, especially its piloting and technological base.

    "After passing the theory of aircraft crews have passed a specialized course on the ground simulators, performing flights on a circle, along the route and in the zone, as well as worked to intercept air targets", - he said.

    Two managers of Su-35 advanced multi-role super-maneuverable fighter planned to introduce in the fighter units of mixed aviation division ZVO end of this year.

    NOTE: Besovets is the rumored location of the next Su-35 unit to be formed.

    How much time do they need to be ablle to fly it ? Lot of training can be done on ground for instruments (using radar and cumputers) training or do they need to fly to use them ?

    Flying and ground crew training both need to be done first.
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    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:24 pm

    http://sputniknews.com/business/20160608/1041015287/jets-russia-purchase-indonesia.html

    Indonesia to Buy 8 Russian Su-35 Fighter Jets, Talks Near Completion

    The main part of the negotiations is complete and talks have now entered their final stage, with the sides discussing the matter of transferring technology from Russia to the Indonesia, Supriyadi told RIA Novosti.

    The Indonesian side will buy eight fighter jets in what will become the first stage of cooperation in the given area, he added.

    All of Indonesia's military pronouncements are supplemented by the transfer of technology in accordance with the country's laws, the ambassador explained, noting that the Russian side has not voiced disagreement and only formalities remain before the deal is closed.
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    Post  max steel on Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:19 pm

    Russia’s Su-35 Super-Flanker: Mystery Fighter No More

    Don't know what to make of it.
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    Post  ult on Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:41 am

    Su-35S 25 Red got a name. Ivan Gorbunov.

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    Post  eridan on Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:53 am

    How come there are basically no images of Su-35 with wingtip jammer pods? I remember seeing just one, back from the testing phase days. Couldn't decide if those were SAP-518 or older model.

    So, question is: is there a source confirming SAP518 on active duty Su35 in RuAF? Or are there (multiple) images of active duty Su-35 with such pods?
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    Post  Guest on Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:28 pm

    eridan wrote:How come there are basically no images of Su-35 with wingtip jammer pods? I remember seeing just one, back from the testing phase days. Couldn't decide if those were SAP-518 or older model.

    So, question is: is there a source confirming SAP518 on active duty Su35 in RuAF? Or are there (multiple) images of active duty Su-35 with such pods?

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    Post  hoom on Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:34 am

    So do they actually dismount the missile rail to mount those jammer pods or is there some variety in the build where some have it & others have missile rails?
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:26 am

    hoom wrote:So do they actually dismount the missile rail to mount those jammer pods or is there some variety in the build where some have it & others have missile rails?

    Well Belarus MIC has developed jamming pods that retain the missile rail, so it's not impossible to do the same here...however its as you say. For them to keep the jamming pods they would have to sacrifice the wing-tip mounts.
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    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:54 am

    On one hand that seems odd: it's a lot of effort to put them on vs Western ones being mounted on rails as quick as any normal weapon.
    On the other hand removing the weight of the rails means you can get a heavier/more capable pod within the same weight limit & cleaner aerodynamically.
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    Post  eridan on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:04 am

    Militarov wrote:

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    Thank you for your reply! I quoted just one image for brevity's sake. Can anyone point out the noticeable exterior differences between sps171 pods and sap518, so i can tell them apart? Is it the lack of cooling duct on the inner side? And lack of upper/lower side extruded line connecting both tips of the pod?
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    Post  eridan on Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:40 pm

    Is there any image of Su-35 with external tanks? Those have been mentioned in the past, and even UAC website offers data on range with them (mentioning two 2000 L tanks) - but have they ever actually been put on a Su35 and tested? Have they been integrated? Is there a single image of the plane with them?

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