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    Su-35S: News

    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:I suspect he meant 0.3m^2.

    Well 0.3 sqm is theoritically at least detectable by Irbis at over 200 Km, i don't see it necessitating development of specialized L-band radar for fighter aircrafts.

    So i say that 0.3 sqm figure for "lowest achievable by manned fighter aircraft" might not be correct.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:29 am

    We are talking about average... half the time the reflection will be less and half the time more... and BTW Irbis is a very powerful radar... what makes you think it wont track semi stealthy targets at long range?
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    Post  sepheronx on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:37 am

    Irbis-E is a ridiculously powerful radar.  Most powerful fighterborn radar actually.  There was a video I think I posted a while back (was posted by metberkut on mp.net) that showed its searching and tracking/detection ranges and it was very impressive.  It wouldn't have a problem picking up advanced stealth aircraft at a respectable range. If the arrays of the L-Band indeed indicate that it can help the main radar in detecting aircrafts, add in the IRST, it is a very good combination of assets to help it track enemy aircrafts with multiple systems. Su-35 is truely a magnificant aircraft. Hopefully there will be an upgrade package to add in the Byelka radar in the future.
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    Post  Giulio on Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:49 am

    Viktor wrote:AESA L-band radar in the Su-35 skin - first in the world

    Su-35S: News - Page 10 2508g2b

    Su-35S: News - Page 10 9t33mx

    Hello, please someone could tell me this site because I don't know Russsian Language. Is the OAO JSC?
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:34 am

    Digital on-board multifunctional AESA.

    That is all there is.
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    Post  Giulio on Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:16 am

    Thanks, but I'd like to read the article with a translator if possible.
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:15 pm

    Giulio wrote:Thanks, but I'd like to read the article with a translator if possible.

    Those few words on the picture?

    Бортовой Многофункциональны цифровой запросчик с активной фазированной антенной решеткой (АФАР)
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    Post  Giulio on Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:30 pm

    Thanks. I thought it was an article. So, has the Su-35 an on-board multi-function digital interrogator with active phased array, or is it only a Manufacturer demonstrator?
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    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:17 pm

    Giulio wrote:Thanks. I thought it was an article. So, has the Su-35 an on-board multi-function digital interrogator with active phased array, or is it only a Manufacturer demonstrator?

    The picture above would suggest the serial aircraft have it
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:13 am

    GarryB wrote:We are talking about average... half the time the reflection will be less and half the time more... and BTW Irbis is a very powerful radar... what makes you think it wont track semi stealthy targets at long range?

    I never think Irbis is not a powerful radar.

    My problem is what RCS figure i should use for my range calculations, Morpheus complicated the problem with his 3/0.3 Sqm figure, and i asked, if raptor's RCS is indeed 0.3 Sqm.. Why Russian bother to have L-band radar at all since Irbis E can detect 0.3 Sqm RCS at 200++ km.

    My conclusion is that Raptor's RCS is indeed smaller than 0.3 Sqm and perhaps smaller than 0.1 Sqm that necessitating separate L-band Radar.
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    Post  medo on Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:59 am

    Maybe L-band AESA is connected with new long range AA missile. Su-30SM doesn't have L-band AESA inside and use standard Flanker missiles. I assume L-band AESA could be connected with use of long range R-37 or RVV-BD missile, which could operate with L-band midguidance. MiG-31 also have L-band elements in its Zaslon PESA radar to operate with old R-40 AA missiles. Su-35 and MiG-31BM could operate those new missiles as they have L-band components inside and I'm sure PAK FA will also have this L-band AESA inside and will use long range RVV-BD missiles. Time will tell, but I really think, this big L-band AESA is not only IFF as it have similar IFF complex as Su-30SM and could work in similar distances and with similar sensors. L-band AESA complex is additional complex and most probably connected with new missiles.
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    Post  nemrod on Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:52 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:

    I never think Irbis is not a powerful radar.

    My problem is what RCS figure i should use for my range calculations, Morpheus complicated the problem with his  3/0.3 Sqm figure, and i asked, if raptor's RCS is indeed 0.3 Sqm.. Why Russian bother to have L-band radar at all since Irbis E can detect 0.3 Sqm RCS at 200++ km.

    My conclusion is that Raptor's RCS is indeed smaller than 0.3 Sqm and perhaps smaller than 0.1 Sqm that necessitating separate L-band Radar.

    The debate concerning the rcs is a mere useless hype. As a chinese general witness, after all, some balistic missiles has rcs <0.001, and they detected them. The stealth technology never worked, it was detected in Iraq during Desert Storm -as a speciall US army's commitee- the F-117 was spotted several times. In Serbia, no use tell you more about, 2 F-117 were downed, along with a B2. Stealth concept never worked, does not work, and will never work.

    Recently, if you follow the news concerning F-22, some of them were deployed in Japan, chinese actionned their new radar -undoubtly, with the russians' pundits- they easily detected the F-22. Seeing that, americans removed their F-22 from Japan.
    One of the best -if not the best- in the world stay the SU-35 and its powerfull Irbis-E abble to crunch all western fighters. Instead to continue to improve the performances of the very powerfull Mig-35, and SU-35 that are far enough against any fighters in the world, unfortuneltly Russia seems to fell in the same western's trap, by developping the very cosltly SU- Pak T-50 with a mixed results.
    With its radars ZUKH Phasototron, and Irbis-E, Mig-35 and SU-35 are largelly enough against every Russia's ennemies.


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    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:23 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    The debate concerning the rcs is a mere useless hype. As a chinese general witness, after all, some balistic missiles has rcs <0.001, and they detected them. The stealth technology never worked, it was detected in Iraq during Desert Storm -as a speciall US army's commitee- the F-117 was spotted several times. In Serbia, no use tell you more about, 2 F-117 were downed, along with a B2. Stealth concept never worked, does not work, and will never  work.

    They worked in their intended band coverage.

    Most problem in RCS related debate is there are no one actually take account of it nor putting effort to understand how it works. It's either "Stealth makes stuff invisible regardless to XYZ radar" Or "Stealth Fails" .. Both extremes are shit.

    Serbs can detect F-117 With their VHF Band radar, yes as RCS of the stealth increased due to increase in wavelength thus make it detectable in range longer than their X-band SNR-125 radar, and later formed plan to down it.


    Recently, if you follow the news concerning F-22, some of them were deployed in Japan, chinese actionned their new radar -undoubtly, with the russians' pundits- they easily detected the F-22. Seeing that, americans removed their F-22 from Japan.
    One of the best -if not the best- in the world stay the SU-35 and its powerfull Irbis-E abble to crunch all western fighters. Instead to continue to improve the performances of the very powerfull Mig-35, and SU-35 that are far enough against any fighters in the world, unfortuneltly Russia seems to fell in the same western's trap, by developping the very cosltly SU- Pak T-50 with a mixed results.
    With its radars ZUKH Phasototron, and Irbis-E, Mig-35 and SU-35 are largelly enough against every Russia's ennemies.

    Because their radar operates in L or longer wave band.

    While The F-22 itself are optimized for certain (but not all) Radar frequencies.

    Hell if Stealth does not work i wonder..Not only Russia but practically every aircrafts maker across the world want it.
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    Post  Firebird on Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:29 pm

    I know with the F-35, its RCS/stealth detectability from the front is low.

    But from the back, its pretty poor in comparison.

    Generally, there's elements of truth in both sides. Stealth is not everything. Nor is it garbage.

    Much of it depends on what the enemy's level is.
    Reasonable stealth allows you a bit more of the element of surprise, as you are detected later on.

    How an Su-35 compares to an F-35 or F-22 is complex. Much of it depends on what you are using them for. Additionally, you get more Su-35s for your money than F-22s.
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    Post  Werewolf on Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:33 pm

    Stealth is just a tool a useful tool, like ERA on tanks, they will not stop everything but they are effective enough to stop very old warheads and reduce the performance of newer Tandem-HEAT rounds, it does not mean they work against everything in all circumstances of different weapons but they have their use and so is stealth, it just reduces the interception range for airborne based X/S-band radars and to some minor degree ground based.

    Stealth has its use but it is the same like with everything else that is propagated to ridiculous statements, like "stealth" invisible to everyone and other nonsense which Lockheed Martin carries on with almost everything they produce. This figure of 0.00001m² RCS is absolutley impossible, it is only possible digitally in a labour with clean conditions not in real world, with far higher moisture, different environment, different non perfect coating with RAM, absolutley everything in real combat is worse and that is dozen times worse.

    You should take the most likely figure for Raptors RCS which is around 0.01 -0.05m² which was posted here before by Mindstorm in a post of his about russian scientist estimations of F-22 RCS and not this laughable PR they like to shove down everyones throught.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:47 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Stealth has its use but it is the same like with everything else that is propagated to ridiculous statements, like "stealth" invisible to everyone and other nonsense which Lockheed Martin carries on with almost everything they produce. This figure of 0.00001m² RCS is absolutley impossible, it is only possible digitally in a labour with clean conditions not in real world, with far higher moisture, different environment, different non perfect coating with RAM, absolutley everything in real combat is worse and that is dozen times worse.

    You should take the most likely figure for Raptors RCS which is around 0.01 -0.05m² which was posted here before by Mindstorm in a post of his about russian scientist estimations of F-22 RCS and not this laughable PR they like to shove down everyones throught.

    My figure is 0.0001 Not that 0.00001.

    and at what band that 0.01-0.05 sqm measured ? and from what aspect.
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    Post  medo on Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:58 pm

    I'm sure Russians now know quite well, what is actual F-22 RCS in real combat environment as USAF use F-22 in bombing campaign in Syria against IS. They for sure measure F-22 signature with all their radars and ELINT equipment in Syria (Syrian army) and track them, when in range. Don't forget, Syria is excellent environment for F-22, as it is dry and clear weather environment. Far more problematic will be flying in clouds and more rainy environment as wet surface will quite increase its RCS.
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    Post  Werewolf on Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:08 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Stealth has its use but it is the same like with everything else that is propagated to ridiculous statements, like "stealth" invisible to everyone and other nonsense which Lockheed Martin carries on with almost everything they produce. This figure of 0.00001m² RCS is absolutley impossible, it is only possible digitally in a labour with clean conditions not in real world, with far higher moisture, different environment, different non perfect coating with RAM, absolutley everything in real combat is worse and that is dozen times worse.

    You should take the most likely figure for Raptors RCS which is around 0.01 -0.05m² which was posted here before by Mindstorm in a post of his about russian scientist estimations of F-22 RCS and not this laughable PR they like to shove down everyones throught.

    My figure is 0.0001 Not that 0.00001.

    and at what band that 0.01-0.05 sqm measured ? and from what aspect.

    Here is the post by Mindstorm refering to scientists estimation for real combat environment.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2661-how-would-pak-fa-counter-f22-in-future-aerial-warfare


    ) STEALTH

    Tactical relevant average area of reflection (the value really involved in multi-radial radar illumination in air-to air engagements ,instead of the marketing ,sensationalistic, and purely academic ones obtained at selected hypercritical angles with pencil beam irradiation) for this kind of low observable maneuverable tactical aircraft is literally LIGHT YEARS far from the comical RCS figures usually cited.


    The computed figures for effective RCS of the F-22A Raptor , for words of the leading domestic figures of the field -representing ,incidentally, also , in the Theoretic Physics understanding of the involved phenomenon and the principles behind them, also the leading figures on the planet and the same Institutes where them has been developed in first instance - fluctuate all in the range of 0,1 - 0,5 square meters



    Владимир Загородний , Главный конструктор ОАО "НИИП имени В.В. Тихомирова"


    "Интересно сравнить «дуэльные» возможности авиационных комплексов Су-27СМ2 (Су-35) и F-22A «Сухой», оснащенный «Ирбисом», может обнаружить цель с ЭПР 0.1-0.5 м2 (приблизительно в этом интервале лежит величина эффективной радиолокационной поверхности рассеяния малозаметного самолета Локхид Мартин F/A-22A) на дистанции 165-240 км. В то же время, американский истребитель «видит» своего противника с ЭПР 1 м2 на дистанции лишь 200 км (Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2005-2006). Таким образом, малозаметный «Рэптор» со своей АФАР по части бортового радиолокационного комплекса не имеет никаких реальных преимуществ перед модернизированным «Сухим» в ракетном воздушном бою на «вневизуальной» дальности."

    Александр Давиденко ,Главный конструктор ОКБ "Сухой

    ЭПР самолетов старого поколения (например, Су-27) составляет около 12 м², тогда как у F-22A Raptor она колеблется в диапазоне 0,3-0,4 м². ЭПР ПАК ФА 'не будет превышать показатели F-22A, она будет к ним очень близка'.

    А.Н. Лагарьков. Директор Института теоретической и прикладной электродинамики РАН.

    Если в 1980-х годах самолеты типа F-15 имели ЭПР более 10 м2 то у модернизированного авиационного комплекса ЭПР составляет 1-1.5 м2, а у перспективных авиационных комплексов пятого поколения, таких как F-22, JSF, - 0.3 м2.

    "Stealth" technology (in its REAL application, implications and tactically relevant order of magnitude) offer ,to tactical aircraft implementing it, an important and , even a deciding tactical advantage ,in particular against legacy opponent within some "threshold" radar detection range and field of view, but nothing even only near to the concept of operation usually linked in public immaginary with the ait-to-air engagements with similar LO platforms.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:24 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Here is the post by Mindstorm refering to scientists estimation for real combat environment.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2661-how-would-pak-fa-counter-f22-in-future-aerial-warfare


    )  STEALTH

    Tactical relevant average area of reflection   (the value really involved in multi-radial radar illumination in air-to air engagements ,instead of the marketing ,sensationalistic, and purely academic ones obtained at selected hypercritical angles with pencil beam irradiation) for this kind of low observable maneuverable tactical aircraft is literally  LIGHT YEARS  far from the comical RCS figures usually cited.


    The computed figures for effective RCS of the F-22A Raptor , for words of the leading domestic figures of the field  -representing ,incidentally, also , in the Theoretic Physics understanding of the involved phenomenon and the principles behind them, also the leading figures on the planet and the same Institutes where them has been developed in first instance - fluctuate all in the range of 0,1 - 0,5 square meters



    Владимир Загородний  , Главный конструктор ОАО "НИИП имени В.В. Тихомирова"


       "Интересно сравнить «дуэльные» возможности авиационных комплексов Су-27СМ2 (Су-35) и F-22A «Сухой», оснащенный «Ирбисом», может обнаружить цель с ЭПР 0.1-0.5 м2 (приблизительно в этом интервале лежит величина эффективной радиолокационной поверхности рассеяния малозаметного самолета Локхид Мартин F/A-22A) на дистанции 165-240 км. В то же время, американский истребитель «видит» своего противника с ЭПР 1 м2 на дистанции лишь 200 км (Jane's All the World's Aircraft 2005-2006). Таким образом, малозаметный «Рэптор» со своей АФАР по части бортового радиолокационного комплекса не имеет никаких реальных преимуществ перед модернизированным «Сухим» в ракетном воздушном бою на «вневизуальной» дальности."

    Александр Давиденко ,Главный конструктор ОКБ "Сухой

       ЭПР самолетов старого поколения (например, Су-27) составляет около 12 м², тогда как у F-22A Raptor она колеблется в диапазоне 0,3-0,4 м². ЭПР ПАК ФА 'не будет превышать показатели F-22A, она будет к ним очень близка'.

    А.Н. Лагарьков. Директор Института теоретической и прикладной электродинамики РАН.

       Если в 1980-х годах самолеты типа F-15 имели ЭПР более 10 м2 то у модернизированного авиационного комплекса ЭПР составляет 1-1.5 м2, а у перспективных авиационных комплексов пятого поколения, таких как F-22, JSF, - 0.3 м2.

    "Stealth" technology (in its REAL application, implications and tactically relevant order of magnitude) offer ,to tactical aircraft implementing it, an important and , even a deciding tactical advantage ,in particular against legacy opponent within some "threshold" radar detection range and field of view, but nothing even only near to the concept of operation usually linked in public immaginary with the ait-to-air engagements with similar LO platforms.

    Well what frequency and what aspect ? That's my point of interest. Or that 0.1-0.5 Sqm is an average ?

    Now according to that post here :

    "Интересно сравнить «дуэльные» возможности авиационных комплексов Су-27СМ2 (Су-35) и F-22A «Сухой», оснащенный «Ирбисом», может обнаружить цель с ЭПР 0.1-0.5 м2 (приблизительно в этом интервале лежит величина эффективной радиолокационной поверхности рассеяния малозаметного самолета Локхид Мартин F/A-22A)

    If indeed raptor's RCS is that much, then why L-band radar is needed ?



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    Post  Werewolf on Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:36 pm

    More eyes see more things.

    The differnt bandwidth will surely enhance the identification and recognition of air targets when working together and despite being same plattform (direction) due the different wave lengths it may even work remotley as some low version of a triangulating mechanism for LO/VLO targets. It is rather easy, even if my first sentence may not be the case, but fact is Stealth reduces the effective tracking/identification range of radars, to counter that you need either one freaking good radar which Irbis already is, but to enhance the capability to track LO/VLO radar a long wavelength radar suites the purpose of "longer arm" or "see first, shoot first" philosophy.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:50 pm

    I can never get over the fact how the F-22 fanbois never even consider the fact that it has enormous, billboard sized tail rudders
    compared to the tiny ones on the PAK-FA. The side profile of the PAK-FA is the least reflective of any stealth jet. Period.

    Anyway, stealth is vastly over-rated and anything currently out there is only effective against obsolete radar technology deployed
    by 3rd world countries. Even the obsolete 1960s tech could be made effective by having more radar units deployed and integrated
    to analyze multiple scatter angles. No modern radar network with many more frequencies and which includes visible band and IR
    passive detection can be defeated by "stealth". Stealth jets are not black holes and will always re-emit the incident EM radiation
    at some set of frequency (e.g. IR). They are also not flying dots that are have tiny cross sections at all angles.

    Back on topic, the non-stealth jets like the Su-35 still have a future.
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    Post  medo on Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:09 pm

    Quite true. I think good stealth coating have a point against small and weak X-band ARH homing heads in AA missiles like R-77, AMRAAM, MICA, Meteor, etc. They have to come very close to lock on stealth plane (less than 1 km), so they have no more value than old SARH missiles, because you still have to guide the missile to the plane. Now, fact is, that only MiG-31 and Su-35 have L-band "radar" elements. MiG-31 have those L-band elements build inside Zaslon radar antenna, Su-35 have them as additional L-band AESA elements in the wings. Saying this is only IFF, I will not buy it. This is a waste of money and energy to use those expensive elements only for IFF. We know, that MiG-31 use those L-band elements with R-40 missiles, maybe even with R-33. R-37 and RVV-BD missiles are based on R-33 missile and it have quite big ARH homing head, so maybe it use L-band antenna inside, to be used in L-band in SARH mode or maybe even in ARH. Anyway, stealth F-22 or F-35 are not that stealth in L-band as in X-band, so those missiles could easier lock on them and in longer distance than classical ARH missiles. Also planes are usually equipped with jammers in X/S-band and not that often in L-band.
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    Post  Viktor on Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:48 pm

    Two new Su-35 just joined in thumbsup

    Two Su-35s arrived in the Eastern Military District
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    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:03 pm

    Viktor wrote:Two new Su-35 just joined in  thumbsup

    Two Su-35s arrived in the Eastern Military District

    are these new or they have been transferred from an other base? the article says mainly that the particular base has been fully re-equipped with Su-35s
    sepheronx
    sepheronx

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    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:53 am

    Depends. Since west sanctions Russia, at this point, I think they could. But S.korea has been pretty good to Russia so there is that.....

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