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    Su-35S: News

    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor on Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:42 am

    AESA L-band radar in the Su-35 skin - first in the world

    Su-35S: News - Page 9 2508g2b

    Su-35S: News - Page 9 9t33mx
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx on Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:49 am

    Any more info on the AESA L band radar? How many T/R modules and its purpose?
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    Post  Viktor on Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:11 am

    sepheronx wrote:Any more info on the AESA L band radar?   How many T/R modules and its purpose?

    I believe it will function something as a search radar in a SAM battery that will find and directs shooting radar (main fighter radar Irbis) telling it where are stealth targets.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:12 am

    Viktor wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Any more info on the AESA L band radar?   How many T/R modules and its purpose?

    I believe it will function something as a search radar in a SAM battery that will find and directs shooting radar (main fighter radar Irbis) telling it where are stealth targets.

    Interesting, the main parroted claim on forums is that "it's only good for friend-or-foe identification, and it's not big enough to see stealth aircraft!!!1!" What people don't realize is that it doesn't have to be massive to effectively see stealth aircraft, because Su-35's won't be going on missions by it's self, with encoded satellite uplinks it could share radar information with other fighters in it's strike group, and if it operates off a carrier than it shares information with it's carrier task group, and if its operating close to shore that it will share information with land based radars. Bringing up it's size is a moot point considering that encoded satellite uplinks greatly makes up for lack of radar size or radar signal processing, when Su-35's integrates in to IAD it makes such parroted claims rather pointless!
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:14 am

    Its purpose is to operate in a frequency range that US stealth aircraft are not so well protected in.

    The fact that it is likely a single row array suggests it either uses sophisticated processing to create a full scan, or it is mainly used for direction finding.

    Note early thermal imagers used a single row array of sensors that used a mirror to create a matrix image that could be viewed on a TV screen showing a thermal view of the world.

    L band is widely used for datalinks, so this radar could have a range of uses and purposes including as a datalink system.
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    Post  Giulio on Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:40 pm

    So does the Su-35 have both pesa and aesa radar?
    Its superior paint in dark grey seems to me particular: is it stealth?
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    Post  sepheronx on Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:48 pm

    No, not stealth. Instead it has ram coating to reduce its rcs but not to that of a so called 'stealth' aircraft.

    Su-35S effectively has both. It radar Irbis-E, is a hybrid radar while these wing radar are AESA. But I am still not sure what these AESA L band radar systems supposed to really do. Information is kinda scarce.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:11 pm

    I count 24 radiating elements :3 and hmm interesting developments indeed.

    Anyway assuming the L-Band AESA emit same power as Irbis, using inverse relationship between range and square of 1/operating frequency, the L-Band radar can deliver 2.7 times detection range than Irbis. Thus for 0.0001 Sqm target detectable by Irbis at 30 km the L-band radar can detect it at 80 km.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:27 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:I count 24 radiating elements :3 and hmm interesting developments indeed.

    Thus for 0.0001 Sqm target detectable by Irbis at 30 km the L-band radar can detect it at 80 km.


    By 0.0001 Sqm, are you referring to RCS? Many people have been confused on the subject of the F-22's RCS. No one outside of Lockheed Martin knows what the true RCS figures for the F-22 are, but claims of a RCS figure of 0.0001 Sqm are almost always referring to 'Peak RCS' as opposed to 'Average RCS'. The peak RCS of F-22 maybe 0.0001 Sqm, but the more important figure is average RCS which is realistically closer between 0.1 Sqm to 0.01 Sqm.


    Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:39 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    By 0.0001 Sqm, are you referring to RCS? Many people have been confused on the subject of the F-22's RCS. Know one outside of Lockheed Martin knows what the true RCS figures for the F-22 are, but claims of a RCS figure of 0.0001 Sqm are almost always referring to 'Peak RCS' as opposed to 'Average RCS'. The peak RCS of F-22 maybe 0.0001 Sqm, but the more important figure is average RCS which is realistically closer between 0.1 Sqm to 0.01 Sqm.

    Yes. Aside from many claims of RCS, Often a quick figure is needed for calculations. and there 0.0001 sqm come in.

    and where did this "average RCS" Come from ?

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:49 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    By 0.0001 Sqm, are you referring to RCS? Many people have been confused on the subject of the F-22's RCS. Know one outside of Lockheed Martin knows what the true RCS figures for the F-22 are, but claims of a RCS figure of 0.0001 Sqm are almost always referring to 'Peak RCS' as opposed to 'Average RCS'. The peak RCS of F-22 maybe 0.0001 Sqm, but the more important figure is average RCS which is realistically closer between 0.1 Sqm to 0.01 Sqm.

    Yes. Aside from many claims of RCS, Often a quick figure is needed for calculations.  and there 0.0001 sqm come in.

    and where did this "average RCS" Come from ?


    The average RCS is essentially is the ball park figure of what Sukhoi confidently believes what the average RCS of the F-22 is, which shouldn't be ignored considering they have a lifetime of Petr Ufmitsev's calculations at their disposal. When Lockheed Martin states .0001 Sqm they're referring to their to peak RCS, but they carefully make it sound like it's the figure of their average RCS. Let's not forget that Lockheed Martin also claims they have a "working fusion reactor", something that the combined efforts of scientists and engineers from Russia, China, Japan, Europe, and the United States weren't capable of doing. So when Lockheed Martin starts marketing campaigns, it's wise to take it with a 'pinch of salt'.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:57 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    The average RCS is essentially is the ball park figure of what Sukhoi confidently believes what the average RCS of the F-22 is, which shouldn't be ignored considering they have a lifetime of Petr Ufmitsev's calculations at their disposal. When Lockheed Martin states .0001 Sqm they're referring to their to peak RCS, but they carefully make it sound like it's the figure of their average RCS. Let's not forget that Lockheed Martin also claims they have a "working fusion reactor", something that the combined efforts of scientists and engineers from Russia, China, Japan, Europe, and the United States weren't capable of doing. So when Lockheed Martin starts marketing campaigns, it's wise to take it with a 'pinch of salt'.

    I need hard number. Not wall of text because Radar Range Equation can't work with it. Is Sukhoi figures include from what frequencies that "average RCS" measured ?

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:04 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    The average RCS is essentially is the ball park figure of what Sukhoi confidently believes what the average RCS of the F-22 is, which shouldn't be ignored considering they have a lifetime of Petr Ufmitsev's calculations at their disposal. When Lockheed Martin states .0001 Sqm they're referring to their to peak RCS, but they carefully make it sound like it's the figure of their average RCS. Let's not forget that Lockheed Martin also claims they have a "working fusion reactor", something that the combined efforts of scientists and engineers from Russia, China, Japan, Europe, and the United States weren't capable of doing. So when Lockheed Martin starts marketing campaigns, it's wise to take it with a 'pinch of salt'.

    I need hard number.  Not wall of text because Radar Range Equation can't work with it. Is Sukhoi figures include from what frequencies that "average RCS"  measured ?


    I'm not exactly sure (this will probably take a collective effort here from the Russian speakers on the forum) but in all likeliness they probably referring to frequencies near the X-band, with shorter wavelengths.
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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:10 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    The average RCS is essentially is the ball park figure of what Sukhoi confidently believes what the average RCS of the F-22 is, which shouldn't be ignored considering they have a lifetime of Petr Ufmitsev's calculations at their disposal. When Lockheed Martin states .0001 Sqm they're referring to their to peak RCS, but they carefully make it sound like it's the figure of their average RCS. Let's not forget that Lockheed Martin also claims they have a "working fusion reactor", something that the combined efforts of scientists and engineers from Russia, China, Japan, Europe, and the United States weren't capable of doing. So when Lockheed Martin starts marketing campaigns, it's wise to take it with a 'pinch of salt'.

    I need hard number.  Not wall of text because Radar Range Equation can't work with it. Is Sukhoi figures include from what frequencies that "average RCS"  measured ?


    X/S-band i believe.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:17 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    I'm not exactly sure (this will probably take a collective effort here from the Russian speakers on the forum) but in all likeliness they probably referring to frequencies near the X-band, with shorter wavelengths.

    Then we have problem. I'll stay with my calculations then.

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    Post  Werewolf on Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:45 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    I'm not exactly sure (this will probably take a collective effort here from the Russian speakers on the forum) but in all likeliness they probably referring to frequencies near the X-band, with shorter wavelengths.

    Then we have problem. I'll stay with my calculations then.

    What problems are you speaking about?
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:17 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    What problems are you speaking about?

    What value should i use ?. The 0.0001 OR that "Average RCS" Which even unclear in what aspect it's takenor in what frequency it's measured. While that 0.0001 claimed from X-band and frontal aspect

    It's really annoying to see something that is not clearly defined. Instead of just reading claims and stuff I do calculations on them and it needs hard numbers and clearly defined variable.


    -----------
    In order to appreciate increase in range against low RCS target by using L-band radar, i used the inverse relationship between detection range and squre of 1/f where f is operating frequency. The benefit of it instead of using full Range equation is simplicity while still provide believeable result. Use of full Range equation is of course better but one must know the change in RCS due to operating frequency.

    In order to work with the relationship one needs a reference radar which is Irbis E in X-band (Frequency is assumed to be 9 Ghz) and detection range against specific RCS which i choose to be 0.0001 Sqm (or as what F-22 is claimed to be) Against that RCS Irbis has range of 30 Km.

    Now how long is detection range in L-band ? Then i specify L-band frequency which is 1.25 Ghz


    The relationship is as follows :

    RF=SQRT(1/f)

    Where f is in hertz
    RF=Range factor (Dimensionless)

    First we work out the X-band

    RF=SQRT(1/9000000000)
    RF=0.00001


    Now we work the L-band

    RF=SQRT(1/1250000000)
    RF= 0.00002

    Divide the L-band RF with X-band to find the range increase factor :

    RFi=0.00002/0.00001
    RFi=2.7

    Thus the L-Band radar provide 2.7 times the detection range of X-band. This however assume that the L-band radar have same antenna gain, emitted power and other parameters as the X-band.
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    Post  Giulio on Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:18 am

    Viktor wrote:AESA L-band radar in the Su-35 skin - first in the world

    Su-35S: News - Page 9 2508g2b

    Su-35S: News - Page 9 9t33mx

    Viktir please, could you post the source of the website of these photos? Thanks.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:48 am

    sepheronx wrote:... But I am still not sure what these AESA L band radar systems supposed to really do. Information is kinda scarce.

    They do what other radars do. This L-band AFAR is a 2D radar; it would use a fan beam two detect and track the targets and measure the targets's range and bearing. Being L-band, it would have a big IFF role.

    There are many Russian fighter/interceptor radars that include a 3D L-band radar, some of them even with pencil beams, albeit wider pencil beams than their, let's say, X-band radar. There are plenty pictures of those.


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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:02 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:I count 24 radiating elements :3 and hmm interesting developments indeed.

    Thus for 0.0001 Sqm target detectable by Irbis at 30 km the L-band radar can detect it at 80 km.


    By 0.0001 Sqm, are you referring to RCS? Many people have been confused on the subject of the F-22's RCS. No one outside of Lockheed Martin knows what the true RCS figures for the F-22 are, but claims of a RCS figure of 0.0001 Sqm are almost always referring to 'Peak RCS' as opposed to 'Average RCS'. The peak RCS of F-22 maybe 0.0001 Sqm, but the more important figure is average RCS which is realistically closer between 0.1 Sqm to 0.01 Sqm.

    That "RCS figure" used by Stealthflanker (nothing against Stealthflanker though) is one that is used if a person wants to embarrass himself/herself. I would never even write those kind of numbers down, even when I am just referring to other people's claims. Stealthflanker's RCS figure has nothing to do with the RCS of F-22.

    There are many that know more about F-22's RCS than Lockhead or Lockheed Martin; Lockhead Martin is just a front.

    All the RCS's that you have quoted are extremely excessively low.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:29 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    There are many Russian fighter/interceptor radars that include a 3D L-band radar, some of them even with pencil beams, albeit wider pencil beams than their, let's say, X-band radar. There are plenty pictures of those.

    I've seen them.. But i don't think if it's truly a primary radar... or worked as the X-band one. More like IFF interogators as the one in American fighter radars

    Su-35S: News - Page 9 F-14_Tomcat_radar_USSHM



    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    That "RCS figure" used by Stealthflanker (nothing against Stealthflanker though) is one that is used if a person wants to embarrass himself/herself. I would never even write those kind of numbers down, even when I am just referring to other people's claims. Stealthflanker's RCS figure has nothing to do with the RCS of F-22.

    There are many that know more about F-22's RCS than Lockhead or Lockheed Martin; Lockhead Martin is just a front.

    All the RCS's that you have quoted are extremely excessively low.

    Then care to share better number i could use ? Remember, radar range equation cannot work without hard numbers.

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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:05 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    There are many Russian fighter/interceptor radars that include a 3D L-band radar, some of them even with pencil beams, albeit wider pencil beams than their, let's say, X-band radar. There are plenty pictures of those.

    I've seen them.. But i don't think if it's truly a primary radar... or worked as the X-band one.  More like IFF interogators as the one in American fighter radars

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    That "RCS figure" used by Stealthflanker (nothing against Stealthflanker though) is one that is used if a person wants to embarrass himself/herself. I would never even write those kind of numbers down, even when I am just referring to other people's claims. Stealthflanker's RCS figure has nothing to do with the RCS of F-22.

    There are many that know more about F-22's RCS than Lockhead or Lockheed Martin; Lockhead Martin is just a front.

    All the RCS's that you have quoted are extremely excessively low.

    Then care to share better number i could use ?  Remember, radar range equation cannot work without hard numbers.


    For F-22's frontal RCS in the X-band, I wouldn't use anything less than 3 m^2.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:23 pm

    I think this is at the Fazotron museum.


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    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:48 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    For F-22's frontal RCS in the X-band, I wouldn't use anything less than 3 m^2.

    Then why Russians bother making separate L-band radar within the leading edge ? Even old N001 Radar can detect 3 Sqm at 80-90 Km. What's your source of that 3 Sqm figure ?

    About image of pharaon you posted on the next page.. If you insist that those IFF interrogators sticking out of the main antenna array is indeed a fully capable Primary Search Radar, do you have any evidence on it ? Like say detection range performance etc ?

    Another question is that if that L-band antenna sticking out of the main array is indeed capable of being Primary Search Radar.. Why Russians make separate radar installed within the leading edge ? Why not just do it the old way, put it on the main array ?
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:35 am

    I suspect he meant 0.3m^2.

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