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    Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:01 am

    Via Balancer a progress pic of 20385

    And a bunch of the 2nd boat at https://vk.com/wall-60836469_7385

    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:58 pm

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/185610.html
    Interesting.

    Remember when the most recent 2 Retiviy & Strogiy were laid down at Severnaya in 2015 as cheaper 20380 rather than too expensive 20385?
    There was some mention of improved radar which I think we generally presumed = replacing the inadequate Furke with one based off the Pantsir-S2 radar.
    Apparently at the laying down ceremony they were unusually furtive with the name plates, allowing only distant shots before they were covered up.

    What can be seen is the mast has similar profile to 20385, Puma firecontrol is absent from the bridge.

    Seems the purchase orders are for 20385 radar sets rather than 20380 sets so gonna be some kind of 20380/20385 hybrid Suspect
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:05 am

    I suspect they are working on rather powerful AESA radar arrays... but it will likely take time for production to reduce the cost of each module, and also reduce the dud rate of modules (duds cost the same as working modules), while over time with experience the software will also improve and performance and capabilities will expand... the thing is that the best way to reduce costs and improve design and manufacturing is mass production... which will be expensive at first but costs will go down because you can pretty much use the same TR modules on any AESA radar.... from ship antenna array, to missile antenna array, to SAM radar antenna array, to vehicle and aircraft antenna array, and beyond.

    Price per module comes down, weight comes down, size comes down, performance goes up, efficiency goes up...


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    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:46 am

    Well the thing is 20385 was considered too expensive probably in large part due to the Zaslon/Barrier radar system but seems to be a contradiction to then put the same radar system on the next boats which were supposed to be cheaper 20380s & its interesting that they have been keeping it on the down-low.
    I agree economies of scale from building more ships with the same set is a good idea for bringing the unit cost of the radar system down (& getting more of that capability available) though.
    20386 has the full system too, 22800 seems to be a partial install so there is definitely an effort to build that economy of scale.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:25 am

    Rather odd article https://iz.ru/683765/aleksandr-kruglov-aleksei-ramm/rossiiskie-stels-korvety-osnastili-kalibrami
    Probably some kind of mangling/misunderstanding between 20380/20385/20386 or something but they are saying 20380s will be reworked with Calibr & Pantsir.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:43 am

    gonna keep the Redut system?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:46 am

    hoom wrote:Rather odd article https://iz.ru/683765/aleksandr-kruglov-aleksei-ramm/rossiiskie-stels-korvety-osnastili-kalibrami
    Probably some kind of mangling/misunderstanding between 20380/20385/20386 or something but they are saying 20380s will be reworked with Calibr & Pantsir.

    Didn't they already rework them with Kalibrs into 20385? Or do they want to drop Redut in favor of Pantsir? (clumsy move)

    And are taking about building new ones or retrofitting old ones?

    Still problem with build speed...
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:10 am

    wouldn't it just be better to put Shtil-1 if redut is being replaced? But then again, Pantsir-M cant replace either or.

    Better to wait and see what is being built.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:50 am

    Late model Pantsir has a similar range to the short range Redut 40-60kms... and the missiles themselves are relatively cheaper with no terminal guidance equipment (in the Pantsirs) like AESA radars (in Redut missiles)... the main problem(for the Pantsirs) is their length. A vertical launch system with a side thruster to turn the missile in the appropriate direction before the main solid rocket booster lights up would make them rather more stealthy and also allow rather larger numbers to be carried ready to fire... and their command guidance makes them rather cheaper.

    Also important to point out that while the Pantsir missiles are cheap command guided missiles, the related Hermes ground to ground missiles use terminal guidance options of quite a few different types that could be used in a surface to air role to make them more potent if needed, so they offer low cost and flexibility of terminal guidance as a mixed bag...

    Should point out the land based Redut (S-350) is not in service either yet.

    One potential solution for the AESA radar antenna arrays is to only put half the number of AESA elements in the systems and leave the rest blank. It should not effect performance that much initially but will halve the cost of each antenna array.

    Later when production kicks into higher gear the other elements can be added to increase the performance of the systems in operation without costing too much...

    An array half filled is still better than no radar, or a cheaper substitute...

    The more they produce these antenna elements the cheaper they will get and the better quality and performance they will get from them...

    Note the four warhead Pantsir missile would be ideal for facing mass attacks of anti ship missiles...

    However once the S-350 and Poliment-Redut systems are working they seem to be rather more capable and with a much greater effective range, that would also be powerful and useful for a small naval vessel.


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited for clarity)


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    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:13 am

    And are taking about building new ones or retrofitting old ones?
    It may be a question of translation or as I said some kind of journo misunderstanding but the way I read it they're talking about retrofits. I'm sceptical.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:59 am

    Can those ships only use the 40km 9m96 missile or is it possible to use the longer version with 120km range ?

    I agree with Garry that the first one is useless and pantsir could do the job with much more missiles on bord and for a cheaper price.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:28 am

    Can those ships only use the 40km 9m96 missile or is it possible to use the longer version with 120km range ?

    AFAIK they can use both as they each fit the same sized tube... the longer ranged missile is just longer.

    Also AFAIK it was the longer ranged missile that was not performing properly... and I would say the shorter ranged model would be the more important weapon... it is likely they would use 4-6 times more of the smaller lighter missile than the longer ranged weapon most of the time.


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    chicken

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  chicken on Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:54 am

    GarryB wrote:Late model Pantsir has a similar range to the short range Redut 40-60kms... and the missiles themselves are relatively cheaper with no terminal guidance equipment (in the Pantsirs) like AESA radars (in Redut missiles)...

    Any citation of 9M96E2 carrying AESA radars? I thought that was the 9M100 for Morfei. Thanks

    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:56 am

    Bear in mind the Furke radar is based on the Pantsir-S1 radar & hasn't even got enough power to use max range of the 60km 9m96 so the longer range one would only be useful in some kind of cooperative engagement scenario.

    I could sort of see replace the Urans with Calibr, maybe only 4 in something like the container version (stored horizontal raising vertical for launch) & Pantsir-M replacing the Reduts on the bow (a return to the style of first boat which has Kashtan there)
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:36 am

    I believe fruke radar is Aesa while pantsir s1 is esa. Pantsir s2 is Aesa.

    Aesa modules been made for years in Russia and already in decent use by Russia. The radar shouldn't be an issue.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:37 am

    Furke is not even a PESA, its a planar array

    Its fine for running a Kashtan but clearly has been inadequate for proper SAM like 9M96.

    Pantsir-S2 has a proper AESA & I've been expecting/hoping to see a naval version

    Nice profile pic via Reddit

    Hole

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Hole on Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:05 am

    The 9M96 missile has a active radar seeker. The radar on the ship looks after the target, the data is send to the missile and it does the rest. The issue with the longer range missile is the data link, because it needs updated data in mid-course.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:41 pm

    Furke only has a 1m^2 RCS target detection range of 40km, I think 60km for a non-stealth fighter size.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:21 am

    Any citation of 9M96E2 carrying AESA radars? I thought that was the 9M100 for Morfei. Thanks

    Sorry, I confused AESA with ARH...


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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:50 am

    hoom wrote:Pantsir-S2 has a proper AESA & I've been expecting/hoping to see a naval version

    Reportedly the radar for the perspective naval version


    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:55 am

    True, yes I've seen that before.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:42 am

    Interesting, but as I see it they will be converting all their radar to AESA type array antennas as the AESA modules become cheaper and more widely available... so expect such antenna arrays to appear all over ships and soon aircraft and land vehicles...


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