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    Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:24 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    No surprise there, whole thing is a complete disaster. They should really design something usable from scratch because these junkpiles are dead end. Is it true that they do not even have kitchens installed on them? What do sailors on those bathtubs eat?

    To  be honest, you need to ask yourself how did it look Amur shipyards 5 years ago...how crap it was. Organizing company without financing and enough qualified workers is no easy task. Besides I am no fan of 20380 but replacing something is in series is not trivial task and time here is critical. US cannot delay default forever  so more and more wars will be around. Russian fleet soon will be  depleting quicker than is replaced in terms of corvettes or frigates.


    PapaDragon wrote:
    Swiped these, Boiky and Stoiky deployed last week. Does anyone know where these pics might have been taken?

    Great Belt Bridge (Danemark -Sweden Smile to me


    TheArmenian
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:Project 20380 corvettes delivery has been delayed

    Deputy Defense Minister: Amur plant has delayed the state defense order

    No surprise there, whole thing is a complete disaster. They should really design something usable from scratch because these junkpiles are dead end. Is it true that they do not even have kitchens installed on them? What do sailors on those bathtubs eat?

    ALSO:

    Swiped these, Boiky and Stoiky deployed last week. Does anyone know where these pics might have been taken?
    .
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    You remind me of ultron/resistance.
    Don't worry, sailors on these corvettes are not starving. Watch the""Baltic fleet  "" corvette vs submarine series to see with your own eyes.

    The Boiky and Stoiky have indeed crossed the straits in Danemark and are now in the North Sea to troll NATO navies. And by the way, the sailors are having warm meal
    [/img]

    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:45 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:............
    You remind me of ultron/resistance.
    Don't worry, sailors on these corvettes are not starving. Watch the""Baltic fleet  "" corvette vs submarine series to see with your own eyes.

    The Boiky and Stoiky have indeed crossed the straits in Danemark and are now in the North Sea to troll NATO navies. And by the way, the sailors are having warm meal
    [/img]


    Let's keep this civil, I haven't insulted you and I expect same in return.

    I am no fan of this class of ships (White Elephants to be more precise) and I have gone on the record about it before. They have been in ''production'' for nearly two decades and even if there were more than handful of them made (which there aren't) they would still be due for replacement simply on basis of being obsolete by now. And they were never even decent let alone good product to begin with.

    Switching to new class of ships is matter of time and money. In this case there is no reason not to abandon this model. They take so long to build that they are due for upgrade even before they are finished and they cost as much as full sized frigate.

    Somebody is getting both screwed and robbed blind here.

    wilhelm
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  wilhelm on Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:39 pm

    Sovershennyy, the first of the Amur built vessels, finally looks closer now to completion.
    With this completion now imminent, and serving as the pattern ship for the shipyard, the other 3 vessels from this yard should hopefully follow much quicker.


    TheArmenian
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:00 pm

    @ Papadragon,

    Hey, take it easy.
    I did not mean to offend you. Sorry if I did. In my books, you are one of the good guys here.

    On the other hand, you are yourself being too harsh on this class of ships.

    First of all, they have not been in production for 2 decades.
    The lead ship (Steregushy) was laid down in 2001 and commissioned in 2007.
    4 are already built and in service. 8 more are in construction.
    The latest one (Rezky) was laid down earlier this month. So, if they are still ordering them, they must be satisfied with them.

    What makes you say they are due for replacement?
    What makes you think they are obsolete already?
    What makes you say they need upgrades?

    These relatively modest sized ships (2000T) come with the latest anti-air system (Redut) and the latest antisubmarine system (Paket).
    They also carry a full-sized helicopter, large caliber modern gun, variable depth sonar, modern radars that we know very little about etc.etc.
    So, what is exactly obsolete about them?

    With so much cutting edge equipment (The equipment level is similar to a larger frigate), it is natural that they end up being a bit expensive. No wonder.

    The relatively slow (by western standards) construction speed is not the ships fault. Blame it on the MoD not financing the projects quick enough and on the shipyard(s) slowness or maybe the equipment suppliers being tardy.

    @ Wilhelm,

    That photo you posted is at least 2 months old.


    wilhelm
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  wilhelm on Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:43 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:

    @ Wilhelm,

    That photo you posted is at least 2 months old.


    Thanks. I assume then that it is probably a little further along then?
    Any newer pics?
    Also, has there been any release of a date on when they anticipate it will start trials?

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:58 pm

    wilhelm wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:

    @ Wilhelm,

    That photo you posted is at least 2 months old.


    Thanks. I assume then that it is probably a little further along then?
    Any newer pics?
    Also, has there been any release of a date on when they anticipate it will start trials?

    No newer picture since then.
    We don't know how much work has progressed since then.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:41 pm


    First decent footage of Steregushi class corvette in quite a while, even some interiors too.



    Hopefully with engine issue now finally solved they can fully switch to Gremashi class or even something newer (there was proposal for Tiger class) so RU Navy can finally get some mass produced stuff and put the whole corvette issue to bed.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:09 pm

    As a note, both Gorshkov and steregushi both use Redute and thus currently have the same issues. Engine issue is resolved? Which engines?

    Anyway, they need to build more of these.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:31 pm

    sepheronx wrote:As a note, both Gorshkov and steregushi both use Redute and thus currently have the same issues. Engine issue is resolved? Which engines?

    Anyway, they need to build more of these.

    Gorshkov's use new missiles for Redut and those new missiles have issues. Standard Redut missiles used in other ships have no problems.

    As for engines, there are news about it several posts earlier on this page.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:01 pm

    The understanding is that it isn't the missiles that are the problem but the guidance/tracking system. Since it was multiple of missiles of each type that failed. Which ones is Steregushi using?

    Good to know engine solution has been worked out.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:12 pm

    sepheronx wrote:The understanding is that it isn't the missiles that are the problem but the guidance/tracking system. Since it was multiple of missiles of each type that failed.  Which ones is Steregushi using?

    Good to know engine solution has been worked out.

    No, it's something to do with one particular type of missiles (newest ones for Gorshkovs) Others work no problem.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:24 pm

    So we got confirmation on that? I know we were debating it a while ago since Gorshkov was pushed back to November.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:15 pm

    The understanding is that it isn't the missiles that are the problem but the guidance/tracking system. Since it was multiple of missiles of each type that failed.
    This is the big confusion for me too dunno

    Standard Redut missiles used in other ships have no problems.
    The standard Redut missiles are 2 variants of 9m96 40km & 120km plus 9m100 15km.
    Gorshkov uses the same missiles as far as everything I've seen. (thats the point of a standardised VLS system)
    Though maybe they (sensibly) never even considered trying the 120km version on 20380 -> it would be 'new' for Gorshkov.

    I thought that the 9m96 & 9m100 had been tested & gone into service as an integral part of S-400. (haven't actually seen any of those quad-packs showing on pics of actual service vehicles though)
    I'd also got the impression they'd at least tested the S-350 which is the land analogue of Poliment-Redut?

    20380 is said to have had issues with its Redut system because the Furke radar isn't strong enough (its a navalised version of the Pantsir radar), but it did eventually pass tests allowing them into service.
    But when Gorshkov with much more powerful radar has a similar issue of failed intercepts it kinda points to the missiles.

    I ran into an older (& google translated) article which suggested 20380 only actually passed with a ~15km range interception using 9m100 guided by the Puma radar which would tend to point to the 9m96 missiles again.
    Except 9m100 is an IR missile that probably doesn't require guidance & I've not seen any suggestion that the Puma gun firecontrol radar is capable of working with AA missiles so the credibility is low in my opinion scratch

    I also read an article talking about issues with Shtil-1 on the first Talwars: apparently they had a similar issue of missile guidance failing, found the Puma was actually causing interference on the frequency used by the missile guidance, missile guys spent a bunch of time reworking things with insufficient improvement then eventually a senior radar troubleshooter guy sent over to India did something really basic like tweak the frequency of the Puma & quickly fixed it -> 2nd order from India.
    Not sure how credible that is either.


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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:51 pm

    hoom wrote:
    The understanding is that it isn't the missiles that are the problem but the guidance/tracking system. Since it was multiple of missiles of each type that failed.
    This is the big confusion for me too dunno
    ........................

    Guy, only one type suffered failures, the new 9M96D/DM. Problem is compatibility with Poliment radar that needs to provide mid-course guidance. That is where Gorshkov delay comes from. They could load standard missiles and those ships would be ready now.  

    All standard Redut missiles work fine both on Russian Navy ships and on export vessels (eg. Talwar-class for India)

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:56 pm

    I think talwar used shtil-1

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:07 pm

    Shtil-1 has a different VLS & uses Front-dome for guidance, its a completely different system than Redut.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:07 pm

    Bottom line is that missiles work otherwise RU navy would have had useless missiles for past two decades.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:26 pm

    Papa, read this:
    https://m.lenta.ru/articles/2016/08/18/front_rabot/

    It seems to state Palmas antey has issues with everything, but I am assuming its bullshit. 9m96 being bad performer, 40n6 not in service, etc. But it leads me to believe being garbage journalism cause 9m96 was in service for years and 40n6 was tested years ago as well.

    It talks about issue with redut and shtil

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:57 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Papa, read this:
    https://m.lenta.ru/articles/2016/08/18/front_rabot/

    It seems to state Palmas antey has issues with everything, but I am assuming its bullshit. 9m96 being bad performer, 40n6 not in service, etc. But it leads me to believe being garbage journalism cause 9m96 was in service for years and 40n6 was tested years ago as well.

    It talks about issue with redut and shtil

    Well it's either one of two things:

    1) Standard missiles work but new ones still have issues.

    2) Entire Redut platform is a failure because nothing works.

    In first case we are talking about usual journalistic bullsh*t.

    In second case entire Russian navy post USSR is one big useless white elephant that can be defeated and exterminated by any country that has access to jet powered combat aircraft.
    And that this entire class of corvettes should have never been built in the first place (I do agree with this bolded part to significant degree) .

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:32 am

    Well Shtil-1 works.

    If it can be made to work properly Redut 20380 makes for a very powerful & useful Corvette IMO.
    20385 is more like a light frigate but basically the same size, hopefully the AESA radar on that will be able to work properly with the 9m96es (if the issue isn't the missiles...)

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:39 am

    After doing a bit of reading and even reading nationalreview (blah...) it turns out that the issue isn't all the missiles, but just 1 missile type - 9M96 missile. Essentially it is having trouble with long range missiles and all other ones (less than 150km range) are working as intended so they blame the Fakel plant which makes the missile, hence why they never mentioned the radar but the missile itself. Makes sense. So the 9M100 and such are working as intended.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:49 am

    Well if a system thats supposed to use 3 missiles 9m100 15km, 9m96 40km & 9m96M 120km has issues with the 2nd two then that system is fundamentally borked.
    But I don't understand why this has suddenly come out when the missiles are supposed to already be in service on at least a couple of systems.
    Possibly 20380 wasn't ever really intended to be able to properly use 9m96 but they gave it a whirl anyway hoping for something like 30km effective?
    With just 9m100 (32* 15km missiles) it would still have a pretty strong AA ability for the size of the ship, though not really much better than the first of class with Kashtan Neutral

    I'm still not convinced its really the missiles.
    While they are a common component it seems like a lost-in-translation/over-simplified/passing responsibility type of explanation.
    My alternative personal opinion: Furke just lacks power for the range needed by those missiles (& 20385 will be fine assuming radar/software works properly), Poliment might have immature software/hardware issues, S-350 is vaporware because limited engineering ability/funding has been focused on other stuff (S-400, Shtil-1, BukM3, TorM2, S-2500 etc).

    I hope its something like they just need to update some software/tweak frequencies & everything will be fine.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  medo on Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:00 am

    Steregushy corvette was meant to use short range 9M96 radar. Problem is, that Steregushi doesn't have any target engagement radar, but only standard search radar Furke. Problem with Furke is not in the range or power as 9M96 missiles are ARH, but in the size of target cell, which the radar could provide to missile inertial guidance. If the cell is to big, than missile have to search in bigger space for target and could happened, that it could not find it with its own radar in so short period of time, because the radar in the missile is not that big.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:29 pm

    Except 9m100 is an IR missile that probably doesn't require guidance & I've not seen any suggestion that the Puma gun firecontrol radar is capable of working with AA missiles so the credibility is low in my opinion

    9M100 is indeed an IR guided missile, but it has a lock on after launch capability which means it can be fired blind and directed towards the target and get a lock on the target in flight after launch... this requires it to have an idea of where the target is via datalink so it knows after launch where to look for its target and what target it is going for... the datalink might be two way allowing the operator to select the target based on what the missile can see as it is flying.

    This all means the missile can be carried in an internal weapons bay on an aircraft or vertical launch tube on a ship or land vehicle and can be launched/ejected rapidly and be flown in the direction of the incoming target before having to detect and lock on to that target...for mass attacks or very fast reactions this is ideal... and with some sophistication it can be loaded with a 3D IR image target library and identify targets itself...

    So the 9M100 and such are working as intended.

    That would be excellent news if it can be confirmed as the 9M100 will be an important missile for the Russian Navy, Army, and Air Force.... and offering huge potential for a range of uses... an IIR seeker fitted to existing missiles like R-27E and R-77 and of course R-37M would make very potent air to air weapons... Imagine an Su-35 flying along scanning with its long wave wing mounted L band radars and detecting a radar return where the powerful X band radar in its nose shows nothing... the target is 200km distant and with no solid lock there is no point in launching a radar guided missile so firing an R-37M with an IIR seeker that can actively look for targets from launch all the way to 300km away as it travels without emitting radar signals of its own... it might detect a range of threats on the way but just send back an IIR image to the launch aircraft... when it gets to the location of the return signal it can look for anything resembling an F-22 or F-35 and if it finds one attack it on its own... those stealth targets wont be actively scanning the sky looking for incoming small threats so they likely wont even know what hit them...


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