Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    avatar
    southpark

    Posts : 95
    Points : 95
    Join date : 2019-03-31

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  southpark on Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:45 pm

    In theory, Russian equipment always seems to beat everyone else..."no analogues in the world"  :-) But their strategy is defensive for ever (Sweedish, Polish, French and German attacks) and everytime it came at a massive cost. I actually think it is kinda stupid to play that game...the argument that "we beat back everyone and don't poke the bear blah blah" is kinda stupid. Getting fooled once is understandable and may be twice but that many times...there is something wrong. So all these great toys wont be much if you don't send the message that you mean business....its like India vs Pakistan (India always on fucking defensive mode). The offensive ones generally win in the end (mongols vs chinese), Islamic invaders vs Indian Kingdoms (early 7th century) after trying many times. Look at it objectively...they did do well in Syria though. You don't want to fight wars on your soil...

    I do not think US designs the conventional equipment to go one on one against Russian conventional weapons for a peer to peer confrontation....nukes are pretty good match. Strategy and purpose are completely different....

    I do not think they are in the same class...Rafale may be better comparison

    Note: One dimensional bubbleman, please keep your response short...if you chose to go haywire
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 948
    Points : 989
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 31
    Location : portugal

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  dino00 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:22 pm

    One surprised thing for me was how close the su and the mig where.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1398
    Points : 1392
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  LMFS on Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:46 pm

    dino00 wrote:One surprised thing for me was how close the su and the mig where.

    Yeah, for me too, but in the end the MiG always was a pretty nimble plane and new TVC / FCS / engines gives it pretty much the same arguments the Su-35 has.

    Very striking to me is the apparently small effect the new short range missiles capable of acquiring the target after launch have in the fight, once the kinematics of the whole engagement are considered. Minimum range is an issue, as well as their capacity to actually find the target by themselves after being launched. These elements are very difficult to analyse qualitatively so the study is very enlightening
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21084
    Points : 21632
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:46 am

    My understanding is that they want the new short range weapons to have IIR seekers and datalinks so a target locked with helmet mounted sights or IRST or radar or any combination and be fired upon by a lock on after launch weapon that uses a datalink with the launch aircraft to ensure it goes after the target the pilot wants killed first.

    Perhaps a few MiG-35 haters can pull their heads in and give credit where credit is due... but I doubt it... haters are going to hate.
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1398
    Points : 1392
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  LMFS on Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:My understanding is that they want the new short range weapons to have IIR seekers and datalinks so a target locked with helmet mounted sights or IRST or radar or any combination and be fired upon by a lock on after launch weapon that uses a datalink with the launch aircraft to ensure it goes after the target the pilot wants killed first.
    This was the scenario in the simulation indeed, but even when the author acknowledges this technology allows an opponent to defend himself despite the positional inferiority and their guidance was simulated as flawless, the results were not that brilliant. That being said, we know essentially nothing about data and assumptions used for the analysis and that is where the trick lies, but the same author made some other analysis with different results. For instance against Rafale it was not so easy for Su-35, which makes sense if you analyse the aero qualities of the plane. If you would consider Su-57 with superior aero design, bigger wing and intake capture area, TWR and systems including DIRCM it may look even uglier for F-35.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21084
    Points : 21632
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:53 am

    I think the Rafale and the Typhoon and the MiG-35 and Su-35 are all better than the F-35 in most areas except stealth, and if you have things that can see past the stealth features like L band AESA radar and IRST systems, the F-35 becomes a very expensive fighter bomber more comparable to the British Buccaneer than the American F-16.

    They wanted it to be a stealth F-16, but really it is a stealth Bucc... which makes it an acceptable medium range strike aircraft, but like putting AAMs on an Su-24 or F-111 and reducing their effective range and limiting them to 6 bombs each... but stealthy... and very very expensive.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3560
    Points : 3552
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Isos on Fri May 03, 2019 11:01 am

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Screen10
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 948
    Points : 989
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 31
    Location : portugal

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  dino00 on Fri May 03, 2019 11:33 am

    Isos wrote:Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Screen10

    WTF!!! Shocked
    Is this real? I can't find the picture in is Instagram...
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3560
    Points : 3552
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Isos on Fri May 03, 2019 12:46 pm

    It was in his stories.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3531
    Points : 3615
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  medo on Fri May 03, 2019 3:44 pm

    This is interesting, if true. This MFD is from Su-34, what mean Su-34 track F-22 through platan EO complex.
    MiamiMachineShop
    MiamiMachineShop

    Posts : 115
    Points : 119
    Join date : 2019-04-09

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  MiamiMachineShop on Fri May 03, 2019 3:56 pm

    Medo I was just thinking that! That ain't no SU-35 !

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 B3e510e6b0f35b2e1743579fca12f588

    SU34
    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 40af60ff8725171ac35a643fc9dd3d97

    Wow so how did SU-34 get on him!?!?! Where did that happen??
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 2146
    Points : 2144
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 43
    Location : Merkelland

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Hole on Fri May 03, 2019 4:30 pm

    Your pic is from one of the prototypes. Serial one:

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 100410
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3560
    Points : 3552
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Isos on Fri May 03, 2019 4:55 pm

    And it seems to have no lenses to increase rcs.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21084
    Points : 21632
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 04, 2019 3:18 am

    And it seems to have no lenses to increase rcs.

    Wouldn't matter... Platan is EO and is not effected by RCS.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3560
    Points : 3552
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Isos on Sat May 04, 2019 8:44 am

    GarryB wrote:
    And it seems to have no lenses to increase rcs.

    Wouldn't matter... Platan is EO and is not effected by RCS.

    I was thinking that a a-50 or a ground based radar could have analyzed its true rcs.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 21084
    Points : 21632
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 04, 2019 1:32 pm

    Well if they had Su-35s in the air it would have been pretty obvious from the radar signature from the radar in the nose of the Su-35 in X and Ku bands and the radar signature from the wing mounted antenna in the L band whether it was using reflectors or not... the detection range with L band should be fairly long range as the signal would not be effected by shaping or RAM, and the directional accuracy would be enough to point an EO system or a high power X or Ku band radar pretty much at the aircraft.

    A full airspace scan might not pick up a stealthy target, but a small area scan at high energy levels should... from the radar return they got they will know how stealthy it should be... what would be the point of taking an F-22 into a combat zone and flying it in an unstealthy condition.... they might as well use an F-15 as that could carry more weapons further and faster and much much cheaper...

    As shown in the image, stealth means nothing in EO systems...
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3531
    Points : 3615
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  medo on Sat May 04, 2019 7:59 pm

    Don't underestimate Su-34. It record well F-22 with its ELINT equipment, TV, IR Picture from Platan and RCS with V004 PESA radar. Su-34 radar is also very powerful and capable. I wonder if RuAF use those new ECM and recce pods for Su-34 in Syria. Those new pods would bring even more informations from F-22 and F-35.
    Vladimir79
    Vladimir79

    Posts : 2910
    Points : 3788
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat May 04, 2019 8:26 pm

    medo wrote: Su-34 radar is also very powerful and capable.

    Powerful compared to what? It is just powerful enough to use R-77 at its full head on range. The radar is less capable than the Zhuk of the 29SMT that has far better ground mapping and sea detection ranges.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3531
    Points : 3615
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  medo on Sun May 05, 2019 10:37 am

    Su-34 PESA radar V004 have 15kW peak power and range of 370 km. I know, you use capabilities of this radar from prototype in nineties and even that radar was comparable with zaslon in MiG-31. Serial Su-34 have well upgraded radar with increased range to 370 km comparing to 200 -250 km range of prototype from nineties. It already use R-27ER missiles, so there is no problem to use R-77-1 in full range. True, Su-34 didn't get those missiles yet, but it will as they are comming in RuAF armament.

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 297710

    In air to air capabilities V004 is comparable with zaslon radar. Prototype from nineties have similar capabilities in range, power, could track 10 targets and engage 4 targets simultaneously. Serial Su-34 radar is upgraded and is comparable with Zaslon-AM from MiG-31BM. Zaslon-AM have increased range to 320 km, while V004 to 370 km. Domestic V004 could detect 3 m2 target at range of 200 km, for export range will be at 120 km. True, Zaslon-AM could track 24 targets and engage 8 targets simultaneously, but MiG-31BM is pure interceptor. V004 primary roles are air to ground and air to sea modes, but even with 10 tracking targets and engaging 4 air and 2 ground targets simultaneously is still on the level of many modern fighters.

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3560
    Points : 3552
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Isos on Sun May 05, 2019 11:16 am

    Open sources say 90km against fighters. But its mainly a bomber costing ~25 million $ so ...
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3531
    Points : 3615
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  medo on Sun May 05, 2019 3:33 pm

    Isos wrote:Open sources say 90km against fighters. But its mainly a bomber costing ~25 million $ so ...

    This is from the early prototype from the nineties. Radar went through upgrade for serial Su-34, because its capabilities were not good enough for RuAF. Max. range was also increased from 200 km to 370 km. Peak power is 15 kW, so detecting range against fighter at 200 km is quite real comparing to Irbis, with 20 kW peak power and detecting range against 3 m2 at 400 km. V004 is more powerful than Bars-M radar and have big PESA antenna. Usual info are from early prototype or for export model. Yes, it is primarily working in air to ground and air to sea modes, but its air to air capabilities are not to be underestimated. Su-34 could take care for itself and doesn't need fighter protection. It have same missiles in armament as other fighters.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 3646
    Points : 3628
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun May 05, 2019 11:49 pm

    Its physics.

    Energy input = energy output (minus loss). If the radar uses 15kw of power, then it is outputting 15kw of power and this gives indication of its capabilities. Newer sensitive electronics onboard allow detection and tracking to be stretched out a bit more.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3560
    Points : 3552
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Isos on Mon May 06, 2019 12:00 am

    Any source ?

    Its physics.

    Energy input = energy output (minus loss). If the radar uses 15kw of power, then it is outputting 15kw of power and this gives indication of its capabilities. Newer sensitive electronics onboard allow detection and tracking to be stretched out a bit more.

    Mig-25 had a 400kW radar. I always suggested to use it by combining it with itbis E technology so that they have a 400kW irbis E which would be theorically 20 times more powerfull than normal irvis E. Fuck LPI if you burn and see 600km everything in front of you.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 3646
    Points : 3628
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon May 06, 2019 12:05 am

    400kw radar? what?

    Anyway, it is also if the transistor is capable of handling the output.  That is why a N036 has similar performance to Irbis-E because both are 20kw radars.

    As for finding info on V004, good luck.

    The reason behind this info as BARS R radar going from its 140km 3m^2 detection range (1999) to roughly about 300km 3m^2 detection range that was posted by former member of this forums and was posted on keypub.  It was adjustments to the T/R module (single due to PESA design) and the sensitive components like the microprocessor that can translate the data quicker and more accurately.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3560
    Points : 3552
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Isos on Mon May 06, 2019 8:39 am

    400kw radar? what?

    Well I just checked and some say 600kW.

    https://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/mig-25_foxbat.pl

    Thanks to the use of vacuum tubes, the MiG-25P's original Smerch-A (Tornado, NATO reporting name 'Foxfire') radar had enormous power %u2014 about 600 kilowatts.

    Vaccum tubes were also resistant to nuclear EMP. It could cook a chiken if used on the ground.

    Replace the irbis T/R with small vaccum tubes and boost the power output. The computer should be able to handle that easily. In lock on mode at small ranges enemy's transistors should burn.

    Sponsored content

    Su-35 vs F-22/F-35 - Page 4 Empty Re: Su-35 vs F-22/F-35

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:37 pm