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    Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

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    GarryB
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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:18 am

    Not to mention you will get very different answers depending on who writes that essay.

    A Carlos Kopp essay would have the F-35 losing every time and the only solution for Australia is F-22s.

    A US aircraft fan would have F-35 winning all the time.

    The reality is that it never comes down to one plane vs another plane... it is all the extra bits that decide win or lose.

    To be honest right now, given an open cheque book and the choice between either an F-35 or an Su-35 with perhaps the chance in 10 years of a PAK FA, I would go for the latter path.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:48 am


    Garry :

    Irbis-e has no LPI adventage that AESA has ,

    Also the Beamsteering Agility is better in AESA ( which reach to 100000000 part of asecond ),

    Did anyone believe the RCS numbers that globalsecurity published ?, he put avery low numbers , even cruise missiles ( or stelth cruise missiles ) havn't got these numbers , Did F-15SE or SU-30silent has (after rcs reduction ) rcs lower than acruise missile ? and according to my studying in radar books , we can't put aconstant rcs number for any aircraft , as aexample we can't say f-15se rcs is 0.5 m2 ,this is wrong coz we didn't say at which conditions like distane between target and detection radar , frequency used, power density that is intercepted by the target and scattered power density in the range , front and sides , here we can say aright RCS number ,but Scientifically all these numbers that published are wrong .

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:44 pm

    LPI is a contentious issue....Wink
    According to some, it is more marketing gimmick than huge real advantage.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:49 pm

    su-35 vs F/A-18E/F who wins?

    GarryB
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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:49 pm

    LPI works best with old style ESM systems that will detect the radar pulse, but because it is not particularly strong, or very long it will be dismissed as noise.

    PESAs have been in Russian AF service since the mid 1980s and are a very mature technology.

    The Russians have invested a lot of money in AESAs and I am pretty sure that by 2020 that the Flankers will have AESA radar antennas.

    The problem right now is that they don't offer generational improvements over PESA radars yet cost an order of magnitude more.

    Very simply the PESA enjoys electronic scanning rates, low sidelobes (which is what anti radiation missiles home in on) and the ability to change signal frequency electronically.

    The combination of a PESA and an IRST offer LPI capability where the angular information from an IRST mean not scanning to find the target is required. A short ranging pulse of a fraction of a second can determine distance and flight speed and direction in relation to the aircraft.

    Such a pulse could be missed or ignored by older ESM systems as noise... there will be lots of pulses bouncing around the place.

    su-35 vs F/A-18E/F who wins?

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  SOC on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:16 am

    GarryB wrote:The problem right now is that they don't offer generational improvements over PESA radars yet cost an order of magnitude more.

    Very simply the PESA enjoys electronic scanning rates, low sidelobes (which is what anti radiation missiles home in on) and the ability to change signal frequency electronically.

    The AESA does offer pretty significant advantages over the PESA: very low levels of receiver noise, you can control amplitude and phase for individual elements, and you can simultaneously transmit different beams of different frequency by basically dividing your array into different segments, treating them as separate systems. Plus, the design of the AESA makes it even more reliable from a few aspects (namely maintenance and component degradation) than the PESA, which is still far more reliable than a traditional mechanically-steered array.

    Both AESA and PESA systems also offer reduced RCS and ridiculous beam agility compared to older systems as well.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:09 pm

    su-35 vs F/A-18E/F who wins?

    Irony is always appreciated Razz Razz


    On a more serious note ,we can say that Sukhoi ,with the domestic SU-35S, has aimed very high (being capable to counter western "fifth generation" aircraft).


    The analysis of the amount of work already performed allows a conclusion that Su-35/Su-35S has a much better flight and technical characteristics compared to the analogue aircraft in service, and the installed onboard equipment allows it to solve a wider range of tasks defined by the tactical and technical mission. The potential characteristics incorporated in the aircraft will enable it to exceed all tactical fighters of the generation 4 and 4 + (Rafale and EF 2000 type, upgraded fighter jets such as F-15, F-16, F-18 and Mirage 2000), and to counteract the F-22A, as well as F-35A tactical fighter.


    http://sukhoi.org/eng/news/company/?id=4301

    At today the production rate is mantained at a lower level pace to wait for the test's completion and system validation of some ancillary optronic and DAS avionic components.


    AESA does offer pretty significant advantages over the PESA: very low levels of receiver noise, you can control amplitude and phase for individual elements, and you can simultaneously transmit different beams of different frequency by basically dividing your array into different segments

    SOM ,as you well know , this technique has as consequence two important drawbacks : a significative dilution of angular azimuth and elevation reliability on aperiodic scan cycles and a substantial reduction of the overall tracking range.

    LPI is ,obviously a very relative capability the efficiency of which is defined by the overall level and ,even more, the architecture of the enemy RWR systems ; it had a strong value in the early years of its introduction ,when "LPI" radars could exploit an initial technological surprise and the presence in majority of likely opposing Air Forces of outdated ,often export versions, of old RWR designs .
    Naturally this initial technological "momentum" had progressively vanished in the last years and at today (taking into consideration only the most up to date systems and techiques) we can say that the traditional dynamic equilibrium between radar and RWR has been restablished.

    In any instance SOM ,in English, exist a good book on the subject which i have read some years ago in its first edition (even if with some sections and computations obviously and voluntarily a bit "warped" Wink ) called : "Detecting and Classifying Low Probability of Intercept Radar" by Phillip E. Pace , by today should be published a second edition of this same book.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:04 pm

    and you can simultaneously transmit different beams of different frequency by basically dividing your array into different segments, treating them as separate systems.

    The Su-34 PESA can already do that... it can mimic the two radars in the Su-24, one for air search and one for tracking ground targets and terrain avoidance.

    I believe the PESAs on multi role fighters (ie Su-35) can also do the same.

    The Mig-31s original radar did not have ground modes, but the BM upgrade does too I believe.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:29 am

    LPI works best with old style ESM systems that will detect the radar pulse, but because it is not particularly strong, or very long it will be dismissed as noise.

    Agree , but as RWR go advanced more than past , also LPI tech did

    and in all cases ,to have lpi is better than the other who don't has it .


    The combination of a PESA and an IRST offer LPI capability where the angular information from an IRST mean not scanning to find the target is required. A short ranging pulse of a fraction of a second can determine distance and flight speed and direction in relation to the aircraft.

    In the case of su-35 vs f-18sh the sukhoi IRST no doubt will be killer to hornet , just as MKI did with eagle Wink




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    Su-35S vs USAF Fighters

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:42 am

    Out in the middle of the ocean, over water with no surface or subsurface vessels... only aircraft, then LPI radar will be critical because the only way to work out what is around you is to use your radar to find things... and because the radar picture changes by the minute you really need to use it quite a bit to maintain a current radar picture.

    With LPI then you can do that without revealing your position as easily as a lighthouse would reveal itself on a dark clear night.

    The point is however that the other side can use tactics to negate any disadvantage active radar illumination might create.

    An Su-35S with a large powerful radar could be scanning the airspace looking for threats. It will also be looking with IRST which is totally passive but it can also be listening with its wing mounted L band radar for datalink signals too.

    An F-22 flying 400km away will detect that large powerful radar signal and the position of that Su-35S will be stored and passed to other friendly aircraft in the airspace... VIA DATALINK.

    The Su-35S can detect that datalink signal and will work out from the lack of a radar signal from its big powerful nose mounted X band radar that it is not a normal aircraft and from the signals from its wing mounted L band AESA that there is something there...

    Even if the F-22 does not communicate the information and remains electronically silent assuming the other F-22s in the flight group will make the same detection they have the location and likely identification of the Su-35S but aircraft don't operate on their own so they will have to start scanning the airspace.

    If you had a narrow band scanner set to a specific frequency you might get single pulses every once in a while that appear to be noise. What it actually is is a scanning AESA antenna doing a scan in a range of frequencies that are jumping around randomly to look like noise but can be collected up and analysed like a normal radar scan.

    A more modern broad band receiver will detect the wide range of signals and stitch them together too from the one source in one point in the sky. The signal is normally not very powerful but to get any signal return from 400km it will need to be more than the general background noise level otherwise the signal returning to the F-22 would be too hard to detect.


    That is bad enough, but the engagement is not over water, it is over hostile territory where there are plenty of different types of sensor and system all trying to detect and locate these aircraft looking in a wide range of frequencies including radar, microwave, and even optical frequencies.

    Introduce a jammer to improve the chances of the F-22s and an S-400 will shoot down the jammer. The effectiveness of jammers is determined largely by their power, which is turn is determined by their distance to the thing being jammed.

    Jamming from 400km is just making yourself a target... you are emitting noise but are too far away to be effective.

    Get close enough to be effective and get shot down.

    EW will continue with one side and then the other having an advantage, but as shown by the Serbs that when Soviet equipment is used the way the Soviets intended it is quite effective in surviving. Their main problem was a lack of the full toolset and the numbers to take on NATO. Russia has most of the toolset already as even 1980s stuff would still be quite effective. In 5-10 years time after they have reequipped they will be in an even better position.

    Not by accident, but by spending a lot of money... you don't get something for nothing and NATO and the US have spent more money than you or I could properly understand building a system to invade and conquer... you cannot counter than with sticks and stones. As shown in Vietnam and Somalia and Afghanistan and many other places the most powerful and best equipped force does not always win.

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    su 35 vs f 35

    Post  moskit on Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:38 pm

    :russia russia

    Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

    Will this possible ?

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:18 pm

    moskit wrote::russia russia

    Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

    Will this possible ?

    Only if the SU-35 has no radar, no active or passive counter measures, no MAWS and only one working engine, also if the F-35 has AWACS support, U.S BVR can't be done without AWACS or at the very least the F-35 hasn't demonstrated such abilities yet.

    Update: This missile doesn't have a range of 250+km it has a killzone of around 60km and max range of 100+km which places it around the AIM-120C and R-77-1, and wow is this price tag for real 2mill pounds (GBP) a pop. Shocked Shocked

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:52 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    moskit wrote::russia russia

    Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

    Will this possible ?

    Only if the SU-35 has no radar, no active or passive counter measures, no MAWS and only one working engine, also if the F-35 has AWACS support, U.S BVR can't be done without AWACS or at the very least the F-35 hasn't demonstrated such abilities yet.

    Update: This missile doesn't have a range of 250+km it has a killzone of around 60km and max range of 100+km which places it around the AIM-120C and R-77-1, and wow is this price tag for real 2mill pounds (GBP) a pop. Shocked Shocked

    What is the no escape zone that they talk about anywhere you see the name of Meteor ?? You can escape evry missile and jam it.

    To deal with F-22/35 you just need a stealth mig-21 with Pak-fa's OLS and ground based long range radar to guide them to the target. It will have a small rcs like 0.001 and would be detected by F-22 from 50 km while the OLS will detect them at 60-100 km.

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    Su 35 vs f 15 upgraded

    Post  moskit on Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:36 pm

    russia A CGI of proposed F-15 2040C.2040C is a service life extension programme with some notable enhancements to the fighting capabilities of F-15C to make them potent enough to handle emerging threats & enable them to fly until 2040 or later.Proposed sensor package includes AN/APG-82(V)1 AESA developed for Silent Eagle,Talon HATE dual purpose pod.The upgrade will also unlock 5 more weapon stations through 'quad pack carriage system' & will boost the total Air-to-Air missile carrying capacities to 16AAMs.F-15 2040C will supplement F-22 Raptors in airsuperiority missions & will serve as a 'missile truck' for the leading F-22s (just like the quiver of an archer) in a mixed flight. how would a fully armed su 35 counter this new threat ?

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:00 am

    moskit wrote:russia A CGI of proposed F-15 2040C.2040C is a service  life extension programme with some notable enhancements to the fighting capabilities of F-15C to make them potent enough to handle emerging threats & enable them to fly until 2040 or later.Proposed sensor package includes AN/APG-82(V)1 AESA developed for Silent Eagle,Talon HATE dual purpose pod.The upgrade will also unlock 5 more weapon stations through 'quad pack carriage system' & will boost the total Air-to-Air missile carrying capacities to 16AAMs.F-15 2040C will supplement F-22 Raptors in airsuperiority missions & will serve as a 'missile truck' for the leading F-22s (just like the quiver of an archer) in a mixed flight. how would a fully armed su 35 counter this new threat ?

    Su-35S is considered to has better electronics and jammers. All these upgrades aim for F-15 to reduce the Flanker’s edge but no decision has been made yet. I had read that they also were considering that restarting production of the F-22, or buy brand new F-15s


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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:43 pm

    Meteor has 250+ km range just combine it with AN/APG-81+ VSI HMDS helmet and F-35 won't be needed to maneuver. Su-35 chasing it from 360 degree will just crash and burn.

    The F-35 hopes it does not have to manouver because it is not that great at manouvering...

    Missiles are never 100%... why do you think the F-35 carrys a gun?

    With very limited internal space for weapons and external weapons ruining its stealth capabilities the F-35 will be at a serious disadvantage against an Su-35... which is faster, and has longer flight range, carries rather more ready to fire missiles and also has a gun and very powerful radar and IRST and datalink.

    Assuming the sophisticated self defence suites and likely towed jammers mean neither has effective missiles then it comes down to guns and manouver capability and also speed and range to determine who can run away from whom... and I think you will agree the F-35 cannot run and wont likely be able to hide either.

    What is the no escape zone that they talk about anywhere you see the name of Meteor ?? You can escape evry missile and jam it.

    The NEZ or no escape zone is the range at which the missile is powered and therefore able to pull rather high g turns and recover energy.

    The meteor has a large NEZ because it is ramjet powered which burns for a large portion of its flight range.

    Most missiles have an acceleration phase with a high energy rocket motor and then a cruise phase with lower energy longer burning fuel that maintains speed for much longer range. Many short to medium range missiles just have the initial fuel and accelerate rapidly and then coast to their target... the latter types of missiles can have greatly reduced max ranges if they have to do a lot of manouvering and can simply literally run out of momentum and fall from the skies if the target changes direction a lot.

    Remember a missile has tiny control surfaces and little lifting wing area unlike an aircraft.

    Also some missiles like the R-73 have thrust vectoring so while they are in powered flight their ability to turn is very high. When the rocket motor burns out they rely on control surfaces and so their ability to turn reduces significantly when they are coasting.

    Su-35S is considered to has better electronics and jammers. All these upgrades aim for F-15 to reduce the Flanker’s edge but no decision has been made yet. I had read that they also were considering that restarting production of the F-22, or buy brand new F-15s

    So they are pretty much admitting even 2 and a half thousand F-35s wont be enough and wont be able to carry enough weapons to cope with an Su-35 equipped enemy.

    The amusing thing is that the Su-35 could perform the same role in the Russian military... with PAK FAs near the border and ground based sensors scanning for threats the Su-35s armed with R-37Ms could be fired from 300km away to kill those F-15s and any AWACS or JSTARS operating over enemy territory...


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