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    Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

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    IronsightSniper
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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  IronsightSniper on Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:23 pm

    No, the comma separates the IFF part, so he means that the L-Band AESA will jam Link-16 and GPS channels, while having IFF capabilities.

    Austin
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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:59 am

    I just wonder how could they jam the Link 16 datalink which are encrypted and narrow band communication , you really have to be between the datalink to be able to jam it.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:28 pm

    but
    also potentially high power jamming against Link
    16 and GPS channels, as well as embedded IFF
    capabilities.

    His speculation. I have never seen the Russians claim any ability for it to jam anything.

    As far as I am aware it can be used to scan for targets to basically detect their presence and very rough location, and likely can listen passively for emissions.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  medo on Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:07 am

    I doubt that Su-35 have jammer to jam Link 16 datalink, but for sure have ground based air defense, so in Russian air space Su-35 and other fighters will have also support of ground jammers, which could blind their opponents.

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    Su-35S vs USAF Fighters

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:12 am

    GarryB wrote:
    but
    also potentially high power jamming against Link
    16 and GPS channels, as well as embedded IFF
    capabilities.

    His speculation. I have never seen the Russians claim any ability for it to jam anything.

    As far as I am aware it can be used to scan for targets to basically detect their presence and very rough location, and likely can listen passively for emissions.

    it seems true

    Geolocate on JTIDS. Many extol the advantages bestowed by ‘Network Centricity’. However, if passive L-Band radars in ‘sniffing’ mode detect emissions from JTIDS nodes – or IFF – then the geolocation of these emitters can be performed at long range. This knowledge then confers a combat advantage to those with the L-Band sensors.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-140909-1.html

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-06.html

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:04 am


    Did the new silent hornet has alower RCS than su-35 ?

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:49 am

    ahmedfire wrote:
    Did the new silent hornet has alower RCS than su-35 ?

    Even if it does , the RCS will change drastically depending on the external payload it carries for a mission and depending on the angle of the target to the radar , bands etc.

    For conventional aircraft which carry external payload rcs reduction is good but not really decisive.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:56 am

    Austin wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:
    Did the new silent hornet has alower RCS than su-35 ?

    Even if it does , the RCS will change drastically depending on the external payload it carries for a mission and depending on the angle of the target to the radar , bands etc.

    For conventional aircraft which carry external payload rcs reduction is good but not really decisive.

    but effective, Silent hornet has internal payload for missiles .

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:14 am

    ahmedfire wrote:but effective, Silent hornet has internal payload for missiles .

    Well if you design a internal payload system for Flanker like SH , Put some RAM and call it Silent Flanker it wont become a PAK-FA.

    Silent Hornet lacks the shape to be truly LO , since its not designed from scratch for such.

    At best it would be able to maintain its so called 1 m2 RCS if it flies at certain angle at the target relative to radar.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:19 am

    Austin wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:but effective, Silent hornet has internal payload for missiles .

    Well if you design a internal payload system for Flanker like SH , Put some RAM and call it Silent Flanker it wont become a PAK-FA.

    Silent Hornet lacks the shape to be truly LO , since its not designed from scratch for such.

    At best it would be able to maintain its so called 1 m2 RCS if it flies at certain angle at the target relative to radar.

    If SH 1 m2 it will be good when RCS for Flanker 5 m2 , i think this is adventage .

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:27 am

    ahmedfire wrote:If SH 1 m2 it will be good when RCS for Flanker 5 m2 , i think this is adventage .

    In an ideal situation yes , if it has the radar to look further and an equal weapons system to match.

    But war is less then ideal situation , even PAK-FA or F-22 cant gurantee they would be able to maintain a low RCS in all regiems of flight against all known threats.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  ahmedfire on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:37 am

    Austin wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:If SH 1 m2 it will be good when RCS for Flanker 5 m2 , i think this is adventage .

    In an ideal situation yes , if it has the radar to look further and an equal weapons system to match.

    But war is less then ideal situation , even PAK-FA or F-22 cant gurantee they would be able to maintain a low RCS in all regiems of flight against all known threats.

    I mean theoriticaly F-18 has anice adventage , it will not end the fight but important to see first then fire first, flanker in the other side had alarge radar then larger detection range like beacon that catch SH from safe range as i think .

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:44 am

    True in theory Silent Hornet has a good advantage.

    But remember in theory i can solve Russian demographic problem and can add few 100 off springs to reduce their woes Laughing

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:12 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    Austin wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:but effective, Silent hornet has internal payload for missiles .

    Well if you design a internal payload system for Flanker like SH , Put some RAM and call it Silent Flanker it wont become a PAK-FA.

    Silent Hornet lacks the shape to be truly LO , since its not designed from scratch for such.

    At best it would be able to maintain its so called 1 m2 RCS if it flies at certain angle at the target relative to radar.

    If SH 1 m2 it will be good when RCS for Flanker 5 m2 , i think this is adventage .

    The lower RCS is an advantage, but not as large as initially seems. Remember you need to have a signature 16 times less to half the detection range. There is no way a Silent Hornet will ever operate with 16 times lower RCS than a Su-35 in combat. And the Su-35 has radar detection advantage that outweighs that in any case.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:37 am

    Austin wrote:True in theory Silent Hornet has a good advantage.

    But remember in theory i can solve Russian demographic problem and can add few 100 off springs to reduce their woes Laughing

    I think i get it , but explain more Very Happy

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:39 pm

    The lower RCS does not counter the radar range advantage as it stands. Now we are talking about pure paper numbers, but that refers to radar range as much as rcs.
    When I mean Flanker radars, I mean Bars, Irbis, and the NIIP AESA.

    Now, certainly passive detection means are available, but that doesn't change the advantage of having a radar that gives you farther reach. Su-27 could do silent attack well before Hornet could, because of IRST.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:08 pm

    but effective, Silent hornet has internal payload for missiles


    Internal payload ? From what i remeber the only Super Hornet hypothetical grow map ,presented moreover for MMRCA , foreseen nothing more than a re-designed conformal fuel tanks and a big central,supposedly" less observable, weapons bay capable to host at maximum four AMRAAMs.

    ahmedfire have you any informations on a different version from this,already highly vaporous, one ?



    mean theoriticaly F-18 has anice adventage , it will not end the fight but important to see first then fire first,

    Is incredible to find ,in 2012 ,similar misconceptions (generated by ignorant fan-boy's phantasies, founded on the basis of at best "amateurish" employments of RCS figures refered to supercritioal perfect head-on radar wave inception angles as if them was instead the average RCS figures for a typical multi-angle many vs many enagegements) ,still so spreaded .

    With even only very small angle variation from those very narrow anglkes the RCS figure grow of some order of magnitude .
    A. Davidenko, from the same Scientifical Institution that had developed the same Physics theoretical "allowing" architecture of modern stealth technologyand the basis and foundation of the same birth of the American Scietifical community of the sector,compute that the average multi angle RCS figure of an aircraft like F-22 .(the only tactically "exploitable" and indicative),is about 0,3 -0,4 square meters.

    You can easily realise what is the situation with an aircraft ,as SH with an co-planar head-on RCS figure of 1 square meter Very Happy Very Happy


    ok lower RCS on SH will counter high detection range to flanker radar , SH has AESA radar that is adventage against jamming contrary to flanker radar , so lower RCS with AESA radar are first steps to win in an air- air fight as i think ,

    ahmedfire please try to reason with parameters and ratio between them , this is not F-16 . net , repeating some highly widespread low level platitudes will not aid the cause.
    To ascertain range of detection and which aircraft see first the others between Super Hornet and SU-35S ,even only employing the known ....almost totally worthless.....head-on RCS figures of 1 m2 and 3 m2 for the foremer and the latter, repeating mere words like "AESA" or "lower RCS" can be highly deceiving.
    Maybe,instaed ,that observing the detection figures of IRBIS and AN-APG-79 on graphs can lead you to inferences more well-grounded.









    and








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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:42 pm

    The radar cross section of a Mig-21 is much smaller than the RCS of an F-15, so I guess the best choice of aircraft to fight F-15s would be a Mig-21?

    RCS is only a significant factor if you remain radar silent, if you have all weapons carried internally, and if you actually have a RCS so low that it will dramatically reduce the range at which the enemy can detect and track you.

    The F-18 ticks none of those boxes.

    RCS only matters if you are using radar and if you are using radar then the enemy will likely be alerted to your presence with a broad band detector.

    Note LPI is not zero PI.

    Equally the PESA on the Flanker has most of the features and advantages of AESA, without the main problems (Cost and heat generation).

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:47 pm

    ahmedfire have you any informations on a different version from this,already highly vaporous, one ?

    I mean this ,

    [/quote]



    or even silent eagle





    A. Davidenko, from the same Scientifical Institution that had developed the same Physics theoretical "allowing" architecture of modern stealth technologyand the basis and foundation of the same birth of the American Scietifical community of the sector,compute that the average multi angle RCS figure of an aircraft like F-22 .(the only tactically "exploitable" and indicative),is about 0,3 -0,4 square meters.

    You can easily realise what is the situation with an aircraft ,as SH with an co-planar head-on RCS figure of 1 square meter Very Happy Very Happy

    ok , i didn't said atypical number for rcs on SH or flanker ( i just guess ),

    but you agree with me that SH or SE has lower than SU-35S, didn't u ?

    u agree with me that this is an adventage in air - air combat , didn't u ?



    ahmedfire please try to reason with parameters and ratio between them , this is not F-16 . net , repeating some highly widespread low level platitudes will not aid the cause.
    To ascertain range of detection and which aircraft see first the others between Super Hornet and SU-35S ,even only employing the known ....almost totally worthless.....head-on RCS figures of 1 m2 and 3 m2 for the foremer and the latter, repeating mere words like "AESA" or "lower RCS" can be highly deceiving.
    Maybe,instaed ,that observing the detection figures of IRBIS and AN-APG-79 on graphs can lead you to inferences more well-grounded
    .

    i said silent hornet or silent eagle not super hornet .

    if RCS is not that importance ( except in 5th gen with stealthy design, ), why US going on projects like silent eagle ,silent hornet ( if produced) and F-35 with internal weapon bays to reduce the aircraft's radar cross section ?




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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:56 pm

    The radar cross section of a Mig-21 is much smaller than the RCS of an F-15, so I guess the best choice of aircraft to fight F-15s would be a Mig-21?

    give an example to aircrafts from the same modern generations and the answer will be Yes .

    RCS is only a significant factor if you remain radar silent, if you have all weapons carried internally, and if you actually have a RCS so low that it will dramatically reduce the range at which the enemy can detect and track you.

    The F-18 ticks none of those boxes.

    i mean F-18 silent hornet , it doesn'e see light yet but the design is here , think about silent eagle instead of f-18 , silent eagle has all these adventages .


    Note LPI is not zero PI.

    yes but getting AESA with lpi is better than getting PESA , right ?


    Equally the PESA on the Flanker has most of the features and advantages of AESA, without the main problems (Cost and heat generation).

    features like what ?

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:00 pm

    Silent Eagle is vaporware at this point.

    Silent Hornet is an attempt at exports, the USAF has no interest in it.

    Both were halfhearted attempts at RCS reduction at the cost of other features, and, well, I suspect both will have zero customers. Price doesn't help them, from what i have seen of the estimates.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:00 pm

    ahmedfire the first aircraft is exactly the proposed modification to Super Hornet offered to India and ,obviously it has NOT any type of internal weapon bay, but,as explained, it has only a central weapons bay, supposedly less observable than the same weapons it host when suspended on the pylons .

    The second aircraft in your photo is a proposed modification to F-15 , it has NOTHING to do with "Silent Hornet"


    but you agree with me that SH or SE has lower than SU-35S, didn't u ?

    Not, i don't agree absolutely ; both aircraft in fact have a frontal RCS in a figure low enough that the weapon carried will define mainly theirs effective RCS.


    u agree with me that this is an advantage in air - air combat , didn't u ?

    Obviously not .What can represent an advantage is ,at limit the capability to track a particular aircraft before it track you ; or ,even more important , being capable to track a particular enemy before the opposite at a range where you can attempt an engagement with one of your weapon systems.

    Silent Hornet would be still tracked much, much, much, earlier by the SU-35's Irbis than the opposite, simply because its airframe is almost equal and its central weapon bay could, at most, reduce of some square meters the effective RCS .
    Moreover in typical many vs many air engagements against data-sharing aircraft (as those expected in conflicts between peer/near-peer opponents), with inbound enemy radar wave's coming from literally hundreds of very different inception angles, the effective RCS would be even some order of magnitude greater than that usually cited (for sensationalistic PR purposes) for the perfect Head-on angle .
    Even for a VLO aircraft in those engagement the effective average area of diffraction will not be inferior to 0,3 -0,4 square meters , very ,very far from the merely academic RCS figures for supercritical narrow angles in a perfect co-planar head-on aspect so often ...and at blunder....cited.

    if RCS is not that importance ( except in 5th gen with stealthy design, ), why US going on projects like silent eagle ,silent hornet ( if produced) and F-35 with internal weapon bays to reduce the aircraft's radar cross section ?


    But it represent an advantage and also a strong one, the point is simply that this advantage ,in reality is VERY DIFFERENT from the laughable ideas and scenarios circulating commonly on those subjects.
    Low/Very Low Observability provide an huge TACTICAL and POSITIONAL advantage over the enemy to the aircraft with similar a design ,it don't allow absolutely to a similar aircraft to travel over an head-on vector of interception toward a group of modern data sharing enemy aircraft remaining undetected before entering in the effective range of its missiles Laughing Laughing.

    When someone refer to the capability of a similar aircraft to destroy the enemy without being seen ,it don't lie, but refer to the possibility , eventually ,for a VLO aircraft to exploit its tracking range advantage to effectively turn around the covering angle of the enemy radar's footprint , gaining so the capability to attack it from its blind angles ; it represent the exploitation of an huge positional tactical advantage ,this advantageous potential is diluted enormously at the growing of the number of the enemy networked aircraft and theirs positioning at particular angles in the three dimensions.



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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:33 pm

    Law of diminished returns...

    If you want a stealthy aircraft you can take two roads... redesign an existing type to make it low observable.

    This has the advantage of relatively low cost initially because aircraft like the Mig-29 and Su-27 and F-15 and F-18 were not designed for low observability so going around and cleaning up the hot spots and corner reflectors is simple and the application of RAM is straight forward and the result could have a significant effect.

    The problem is that no matter what you spend it will always be cheaper to go for a from scratch stealthy design.

    Lets say the RCS of an Su-27 is 15m^2. Cleaning up the corners and reshaping parts of the aircraft and changes in some materials might dramatically reduce that to 5m^2. It might cost 10 million dollars for development.

    To reduce the RCS by the same margin again will not be possible because all the obvious problems have been dealt with.

    All the cheaper and easier fixes have been performed, so any further reductions are going to be very expensive or require significant changes in design... and remember this is a clean aircraft, so putting weapons on the aircraft is going to make any more expensive changes pointless.

    If you want LO then modify existing aircraft is an option, but for a real stealth aircraft you need to incorporate features at such a basic level it is much cheaper to start from scratch.

    The thing is too that stealth is not always needed... the F-22 and F-35 and PAK FA have the capacity to carry external weapon pylons for use against threats when stealth is no longer critical. All three aircraft with external weapons are no longer stealthy... all that money and time on making them stealthy is rendered useless for situations where weapon capacity is more useful than stealth.

    Stealth is not a waste of money or time, but a minor advantage in RCS will not have a huge effect in combat where so many other factors come in to play.

    Su-35s might be operating with Mig-35s which have smaller RCS and also AESA radars, and they will be operating within a net centric environment including ground, air, and space based radars.

    This Silent Hornet is like the Silent Eagle... they are paper offers for export that so far have not gotten any interest from the USAF or the USN. Why would they want to spend money on these programs when they are struggling to get the F-35 into service? The Silent Hornet and Silent Eagle are unlikely to be all that much cheaper than the F-35 unless there is a chance that either is ordered in the numbers the F-35 is currently on order for.

    Neither the USAF nor the USN will risk a full stealth 5th gen F-35 program, on the risk of 4+++ generation Hornets and Eagles.

    If at the end of the day the PAK FA turns out to be expensive, then a more radical upgrade of the Flanker is possible... rotate the engine intakes 90 degrees and place them together to create an S shaped intake with radar blockers to dramatically reduce RCS from the front. Creating an internal weapon bay between the engines for the internal carriage of compact next gen AAMs, and conformal missile positions on the belly to minimise drag and RCS while still maintaining weapon numbers... would be two simple changes that would significantly reduce the RCS.

    The AESA being developed for the PAK FA could also be fitted into the Flankers nose to further improve performance if required.

    Very simply anything they could possibly do to the Hornet or Eagle, they can do to the Flanker... if they wanted to.

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  George1 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:16 pm

    Su-35 vs F-35, who wins?

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    Re: Su-35S vs US Modern Fighters [F-22, F-35, F/A-18E/F, F-15]

    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:45 pm

    George1 wrote:Su-35 vs F-35, who wins?

    Far too complicated question to answer in anything less than an essay Wink .

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