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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

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    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:31 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:RE: Russian ground deployment, purpose of Russian mlitary is not to do the job of Syrian border police.

    The same thing they do in the Armenian and Tajikistan borders.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they did actually.

    The purpose of Russian military will not be to perform SBP's, it will be to actually fight a war.

    The Tajik-Afghan border (and the country itself till 97) was more like a war (or continuation of the Afghan crisis) after Najibullah fell and up to 2001.
    But I know what you mean, I was insinuating a limited deployment after SAA and co. cleans it up first. To avoid Kesab situations like last year.

    Nah KG we're good, I know what you meant. I was only outlining the reality to Papa Dragon.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:35 pm


    Fishing boats getting to close to warships cannot be underestimated ..they can be suicide boats
    of turkey paid terrorist armed with 3 tons of tnt to seriously damage or even destroy a warship if get too close. Ideally Russia should hire foreigners to go in small boats to confront such pirate turkey ships. As a matter of fact the fishing boat was withing firing range of any tow missile that could have been very dangerous is hit a warehouse.

    There is also the risk of "ISIS fishing boats" in the dozens ambushing Rusians warships and all
    armed with Anti tank missiles and heavy machine guns. Russian MoD better equip their warships with control mass weapons , like sound weapons or microwave to push away fishing boats not allow them get closer than 1,000m. Because if the fishing boats attack the warship.. Erdogan Pig will claim it was ISIS who did it and say have nothing to do with it. But if Russia sink the fishing boats who gets too close to the warship ,then Erdopig will use the incident for propaganda to demonize Russia ,and use the incident to get more public support and justify closing the bosphurus strait for Russia. Russia did however the right thing ..in making the event public and summoning the Turkey terrorist military.. So Europe is aware that Turkey pigs are provoking Russian warships free travel on international waters .

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:39 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:RE: Russian ground deployment, purpose of Russian mlitary is not to do the job of Syrian border police.

    The same thing they do in the Armenian and Tajikistan borders.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they did actually.

    The purpose of Russian military will not be to perform SBP's, it will be to actually fight a war.

    The Tajik-Afghan border (and the country itself till 97) was more like a war (or continuation of the Afghan crisis) after Najibullah fell and up to 2001.
    But I know what you mean, I was insinuating a limited deployment after SAA and co. cleans it up first. To avoid Kesab situations like last year.

    Nah KG we're good, I know what you meant. I was only outlining the reality to Papa Dragon.

    I read that in Tajikistan Russia recruited locals for their deployed Division there (or better leftover).
    They could do the same in Syria I guess, setup one or two mixed brigades, keep them deployed near the Turkish border.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:49 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:RE: Russian ground deployment, purpose of Russian mlitary is not to do the job of Syrian border police.

    The same thing they do in the Armenian and Tajikistan borders.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they did actually.

    The purpose of Russian military will not be to perform SBP's, it will be to actually fight a war.

    The Tajik-Afghan border (and the country itself till 97) was more like a war (or continuation of the Afghan crisis) after Najibullah fell and up to 2001.
    But I know what you mean, I was insinuating a limited deployment after SAA and co. cleans it up first. To avoid Kesab situations like last year.

    Nah KG we're good, I know what you meant. I was only outlining the reality to Papa Dragon.

    I read that in Tajikistan Russia recruited locals for their deployed Division there (or better leftover).
    They could do the same in Syria I guess, setup one or two mixed brigades, keep them deployed near the Turkish border.

    Actually the problem is that in Tajikistan there were still plenty of Musbat guys that were either laid off, or simply were paid better by the Russian, so basically they were "hot fresh from a theatre or opsn just accross the border (litterally). Russian wasn't a problem and military practices were kif-kif.

    In Syria the gap is huge, the people to have a mixed bat, you need a lot of time, that they don't really have.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:57 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Actually the problem is that in Tajikistan there were still plenty of Musbat guys that were either laid off, or simply were paid better by the Russian, so basically they were "hot fresh from a theatre or opsn just accross the border (litterally). Russian wasn't a problem and military practices were kif-kif.

    In Syria the gap is huge, the people to have a mixed bat, you need a lot of time, that they don't really have.

    True that about ex-Musbat, Russian-speaking locals.
    I guess in Syria it's kind of a "I say tomato you say shawarma" situation that will hamper Russian deployments.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:19 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Actually the problem is that in Tajikistan there were still plenty of Musbat guys that were either laid off, or simply were paid better by the Russian, so basically they were "hot fresh from a theatre or opsn just accross the border (litterally). Russian wasn't a problem and military practices were kif-kif.

    In Syria the gap is huge, the people to have a mixed bat, you need a lot of time, that they don't really have.

    True that about ex-Musbat, Russian-speaking locals.
    I guess in Syria it's kind of a "I say tomato you say shawarma" situation that will hamper Russian deployments.

    Exactly, plus while I'm sure the Syrians aren't akin to Afghanis with the US troops, so they're willing to fight, some things they don't do even now after 4 years. Now, with Iranians, that would be something I'd want to see.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  Militarov on Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:06 pm



    SAA found pilot seat of downed RuAF Su-24 during advance in Jabal.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:08 pm

    I suspect there is more than what is being said about the Turkish fishing trawler incident:

    Today the Rostov-on-Don submarine (the one who fired Kalibr missiles at 2 targets in Syria) was crossing the Bosphorus on its way to Novorossysk: http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/71511/

    It happens to be the same day as when the destroyer Smetlivy vs Turkish trawler incident happened near the Lemnos island in the Aegean sea (which is very close to the Bosphorus passage).

    What was the Smetlivy doing in the Aegean so far from Syria's coast?
    Was it escorting/covering the submarine from any Turkish foul play?
    Was the trawler a Turkish intelligence ship with a mission to interfere with the submarine who had participated in the war against ISIS?




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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  Militarov on Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:18 pm

    Rostov-on-Don Imp. Kilo, transits Bosphorus.






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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:18 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:I suspect there is more than what is being said about the Turkish fishing trawler incident:

    Today the Rostov-on-Don submarine (the one who fired Kalibr missiles at 2 targets in Syria) was crossing the Bosphorus on its way to Novorossysk: http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/71511/

    It happens to be the same day as when the destroyer Smetlivy vs Turkish trawler incident happened near the Lemnos island in the Aegean sea (which is very close to the Bosphorus passage).

    What was the Smetlivy doing in the Aegean so far from Syria's coast?
    Was it escorting/covering the submarine from any Turkish foul play?
    Was the trawler a Turkish intelligence ship with a mission to interfere with the submarine who had participated in the war against ISIS?




    Actually it's indeed on the pathway to cross into Marmara sea from Canakkale but far away from the Bosphorus, and the Turks were most probably playing their favourite game on how to be the most perfect assholes with Greek territorial waters. But from what you're saying, that might be it, Turks being Turks.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:34 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:I'm personally not a fan of having troops risking their lives for a war that isn't ours. We are in Syria on the gesture of goodwill to Assad and the people of Syria. With all that said, it is understandable that in order to ensure a quicker victory there must be some presence on the ground. Russian military today is almost in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan or even the Russian Army in Chechnya. Russia's leadership isn't throwing away the lives of their soldiers anymore. As long as the troops come home alive and well, let them do their thing.

    You're right, the Russian military today is in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan. It has nowhere near the ability to sustain that many troops far away at the bottom of Central Asia for over a decade, has nowhere near the resources, supplies, logistics, ammo at its disposal that the Soviet Army had, far less money and resources to spend on economically developing the region or even building up military and transport infrastructure all over the place.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:39 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:I'm personally not a fan of having troops risking their lives for a war that isn't ours. We are in Syria on the gesture of goodwill to Assad and the people of Syria. With all that said, it is understandable that in order to ensure a quicker victory there must be some presence on the ground. Russian military today is almost in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan or even the Russian Army in Chechnya. Russia's leadership isn't throwing away the lives of their soldiers anymore. As long as the troops come home alive and well, let them do their thing.

    You're right, the Russian military today is in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan. It has nowhere near the ability to sustain that many troops far away at the bottom of Central Asia for over a decade, has nowhere near the resources, supplies, logistics, ammo at its disposal that the Soviet Army had, far less money and resources to spend on economically developing the region or even building up military and transport infrastructure all over the place.

    Actually, it does.

    Economics aside, which is actually very easy to handle and probably would bring in more money to Russia overall, there is so much leftovers from Soviet times, they are handing them over to Syrian military.  They have the personnel as well too.

    Money?  Well, it is in the form of investments.  As well, they can also justify it under various training costs as they already have with the aircrafts.

    Your statement is eerily similar to those who said Russia would not commit at all due to the very same issues.  Yet, Russia rebuilt an airfield, building another one now if rumors are correct, has dozens and dozens of planes, lots of people available, air defense systems, and logistical supply chain and what seems like a never ending supply of cruise missiles and bombs.  And they done it really cheap too from previous records.  Oh, and they made the movements in very short period of time, that got even the US in a bitch fit too.

    So I would say you are quite wrong, as Russia has done quite a lot to prove us wrong. They even rebuilt a repair plant quite quickly and with no word of it till it was finished. Clearly money is readily available.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:46 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:I'm personally not a fan of having troops risking their lives for a war that isn't ours. We are in Syria on the gesture of goodwill to Assad and the people of Syria. With all that said, it is understandable that in order to ensure a quicker victory there must be some presence on the ground. Russian military today is almost in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan or even the Russian Army in Chechnya. Russia's leadership isn't throwing away the lives of their soldiers anymore. As long as the troops come home alive and well, let them do their thing.

    You're right, the Russian military today is in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan. It has nowhere near the ability to sustain that many troops far away at the bottom of Central Asia for over a decade, has nowhere near the resources, supplies, logistics, ammo at its disposal that the Soviet Army had, far less money and resources to spend on economically developing the region or even building up military and transport infrastructure all over the place.


    On a strictly operational regard, Russia has enough resources for a limited deployment (that's what they're doing, in case you've missed it). On the other side, the Afghan war was a completely different scale and kind of operation. In this mess everything is upside down. The exact same issue that you state, is the reason why a deployment is necessary (for both sides, US or Russia) in they want to achieve their respective operational goals.

    Syrians can't get their selves alone out of this, be Nash Syrians or the others. In both cases, it's either a Syria on IV or outright economic slavery.
    So basically your opinion is the safest route for Russian personnel, but the worst for a solution in Syria.


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:47 pm

    Militarov wrote:Rostov-on-Don Imp. Kilo, transits Bosphorus.



    Looks like she is flying the Turkish flag. Moscow said last week that it flying it was a courtesy at the discretion of the ship's Captain, not mandated in the Treaty.

    Be a long time before we see her passing there again.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  kvs on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:50 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:I'm personally not a fan of having troops risking their lives for a war that isn't ours. We are in Syria on the gesture of goodwill to Assad and the people of Syria. With all that said, it is understandable that in order to ensure a quicker victory there must be some presence on the ground. Russian military today is almost in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan or even the Russian Army in Chechnya. Russia's leadership isn't throwing away the lives of their soldiers anymore. As long as the troops come home alive and well, let them do their thing.

    You're right, the Russian military today is in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan. It has nowhere near the ability to sustain that many troops far away at the bottom of Central Asia for over a decade, has nowhere near the resources, supplies, logistics, ammo at its disposal that the Soviet Army had, far less money and resources to spend on economically developing the region or even building up military and transport infrastructure all over the place.

    Actually, it does.

    Economics aside, which is actually very easy to handle and probably would bring in more money to Russia overall, there is so much leftovers from Soviet times, they are handing them over to Syrian military.  They have the personnel as well too.

    Money?  Well, it is in the form of investments.  As well, they can also justify it under various training costs as they already have with the aircrafts.

    Your statement is eerily similar to those who said Russia would not commit at all due to the very same issues.  Yet, Russia rebuilt an airfield, building another one now if rumors are correct, has dozens and dozens of planes, lots of people available, air defense systems, and logistical supply chain and what seems like a never ending supply of cruise missiles and bombs.  And they done it really cheap too from previous records.  Oh, and they made the movements in very short period of time, that got even the US in a bitch fit too.

    So I would say you are quite wrong, as Russia has done quite a lot to prove us wrong.  They even rebuilt a repair plant quite quickly and with no word of it till it was finished.  Clearly money is readily available.

    The trick here is defeatism. Societies are psychological constructs so that real physical impacts can be achieved by manipulating public opinion.
    If people do not try, then they do not achieve. Putin did the right thing by deploying to Syria. It is vital for Russia's long term security and
    it also destroys the paralysis propaganda originating from outside and inside Russia. The Soviets had almost nothing in 1930. Yet they were
    able to stave off the Reich invasion and kick their asses all the way back to Berlin. Where there is a will, there is a way. Russia needs that
    will and not defeatism designed to serve the agendas of its enemies.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:57 pm

    Exactly.  Many use the term economics as if it actually has a meaning to it.  But instead, Russia already explained how the money was being passed to this - money allocated to training and testing of weapons was passed onto this conflict.  They can keep doing the same.  Other money went to investments into Syria and transportation costs.  Outside of that, this is cheap.

    Russia is in no short supplies of weapons or ammo.  It really comes down to willpower as you said. And so far they proven they can.  Only issue is people at home....

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  ult on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:58 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Looks like she is flying the Turkish flag. Moscow said last week that it flying it was a courtesy at the discretion of the ship's Captain, not mandated in the Treaty.

    Be a long time before we see her passing there again.

    lol. It's not a turkish flag. It's a flag of task force commander.




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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:11 pm

    ult wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Looks like she is flying the Turkish flag. Moscow said last week that it flying it was a courtesy at the discretion of the ship's Captain, not mandated in the Treaty.

    Be a long time before we see her passing there again.

    lol. It's not a turkish flag. It's a flag of task force commander.





    Exact, just saw it on Twitter. It's the FU flag.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:57 pm

    ult wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Looks like she is flying the Turkish flag. Moscow said last week that it flying it was a courtesy at the discretion of the ship's Captain, not mandated in the Treaty.

    Be a long time before we see her passing there again.

    lol. It's not a turkish flag. It's a flag of task force commander.




    Thanks, ult.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:39 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:I'm personally not a fan of having troops risking their lives for a war that isn't ours. We are in Syria on the gesture of goodwill to Assad and the people of Syria. With all that said, it is understandable that in order to ensure a quicker victory there must be some presence on the ground. Russian military today is almost in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan or even the Russian Army in Chechnya. Russia's leadership isn't throwing away the lives of their soldiers anymore. As long as the troops come home alive and well, let them do their thing.

    You're right, the Russian military today is in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan. It has nowhere near the ability to sustain that many troops far away at the bottom of Central Asia for over a decade, has nowhere near the resources, supplies, logistics, ammo at its disposal that the Soviet Army had, far less money and resources to spend on economically developing the region or even building up military and transport infrastructure all over the place.

    Actually, it does.

    Economics aside, which is actually very easy to handle and probably would bring in more money to Russia overall, there is so much leftovers from Soviet times, they are handing them over to Syrian military.  They have the personnel as well too.

    Money?  Well, it is in the form of investments.  As well, they can also justify it under various training costs as they already have with the aircrafts.

    Your statement is eerily similar to those who said Russia would not commit at all due to the very same issues.  Yet, Russia rebuilt an airfield, building another one now if rumors are correct, has dozens and dozens of planes, lots of people available, air defense systems, and logistical supply chain and what seems like a never ending supply of cruise missiles and bombs.  And they done it really cheap too from previous records.  Oh, and they made the movements in very short period of time, that got even the US in a bitch fit too.

    So I would say you are quite wrong, as Russia has done quite a lot to prove us wrong.  They even rebuilt a repair plant quite quickly and with no word of it till it was finished.  Clearly money is readily available.

    The USSR deployed over 100,000 troops in Afghanistan. Russia has at most 2% of that in Syria right now.
    The amount of military infrastructure they built and operated there dwarfed Russia's current repair and reconstruction efforts in Syria. Not to mention the huge amount of civilian infrastructure that was built and restored in Afghanistan even while a war was raging.

    Handing over Soviet leftovers to the Syrian military? Well now, you said it yourself.
    Compare handing over something lying around, to building all that stuff in the first place.

    Never ending supply of missiles and bombs? Oh their supply is not never ending. Large, but it will run out. In fact most of them were built during that same USSR, again. It's not Russia's accomplishment on this count; to use those huge stockpiles for WW3 that you've inherited and would otherwise have to dispose of soon anyway.
    But it's true that a good part of those munitions are modern ones that have been (and are being) produced by Russia.
    In any case you should see how many ordnance the Soviet forces were dropping while they were fighting in Afghanistan. If we're to use just a crude calculation - then nearly 330 sorties per day. That's 3-4x more than what Russia is flying in Syria right now.

    About the speed, yes that's right, Russia's actions were very quick, unexpected, and not very transparent.
    Yet somehow I prefer the Soviet way - when the Politburo at least debated amongst themselves for an entire year before deciding to send our servicemen into harms way fighting in a foreign country.
    Here it was like - that's it, we've decided, and now we've done it, case closed. No-one here even had time to form an opinion or get their bearings. All of a sudden we're committed with our own troops - to a civil war in a Middle Eastern country.

    Note I'm not really criticizing the Russian campaign in Syria on anything in particular. It's meant to be on a different scale to the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan; in fact they explicitly want to avoid that experience by avoiding approaching anywhere near the commitment that was seen there. And the situation is quite different too, as is the mission for the Russian military.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:46 am

    @FP,

    The current Russian Army is more efficient and nimble compared to the Soviet Army and it's only getting better....interesting that you forget to mention that the Western Armies are also a shadow of themselves compared to Cold War standards in terms of numbers....I find it comical it takes a coalition of several countries to muster a couple of squadrons....and these guys are going to conquer Russia and China Laughing pirat

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:50 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    ult wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Looks like she is flying the Turkish flag. Moscow said last week that it flying it was a courtesy at the discretion of the ship's Captain, not mandated in the Treaty.

    Be a long time before we see her passing there again.

    lol. It's not a turkish flag. It's a flag of task force commander.


    Thanks, ult.
    Thanks from me as well. I had not seen that better side on photo.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:01 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:I'm personally not a fan of having troops risking their lives for a war that isn't ours. We are in Syria on the gesture of goodwill to Assad and the people of Syria. With all that said, it is understandable that in order to ensure a quicker victory there must be some presence on the ground. Russian military today is almost in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan or even the Russian Army in Chechnya. Russia's leadership isn't throwing away the lives of their soldiers anymore. As long as the troops come home alive and well, let them do their thing.

    You're right, the Russian military today is in no way similar to the Soviet Army that fought in Afghanistan. It has nowhere near the ability to sustain that many troops far away at the bottom of Central Asia for over a decade, has nowhere near the resources, supplies, logistics, ammo at its disposal that the Soviet Army had, far less money and resources to spend on economically developing the region or even building up military and transport infrastructure all over the place.

    Actually, it does.

    Economics aside, which is actually very easy to handle and probably would bring in more money to Russia overall, there is so much leftovers from Soviet times, they are handing them over to Syrian military.  They have the personnel as well too.

    Money?  Well, it is in the form of investments.  As well, they can also justify it under various training costs as they already have with the aircrafts.

    Your statement is eerily similar to those who said Russia would not commit at all due to the very same issues.  Yet, Russia rebuilt an airfield, building another one now if rumors are correct, has dozens and dozens of planes, lots of people available, air defense systems, and logistical supply chain and what seems like a never ending supply of cruise missiles and bombs.  And they done it really cheap too from previous records.  Oh, and they made the movements in very short period of time, that got even the US in a bitch fit too.

    So I would say you are quite wrong, as Russia has done quite a lot to prove us wrong.  They even rebuilt a repair plant quite quickly and with no word of it till it was finished.  Clearly money is readily available.

    The USSR deployed over 100,000 troops in Afghanistan. Russia has at most 2% of that in Syria right now.
    The amount of military infrastructure they built and operated there dwarfed Russia's current repair and reconstruction efforts in Syria. Not to mention the huge amount of civilian infrastructure that was built and restored in Afghanistan even while a war was raging.

    Handing over Soviet leftovers to the Syrian military? Well now, you said it yourself.
    Compare handing over something lying around, to building all that stuff in the first place.

    Never ending supply of missiles and bombs? Oh their supply is not never ending. Large, but it will run out. In fact most of them were built during that same USSR, again. It's not Russia's accomplishment on this count; to use those huge stockpiles for WW3 that you've inherited and would otherwise have to dispose of soon anyway.
    But it's true that a good part of those munitions are modern ones that have been (and are being) produced by Russia.
    In any case you should see how many ordnance the Soviet forces were dropping while they were fighting in Afghanistan. If we're to use just a crude calculation - then nearly 330 sorties per day. That's 3-4x more than what Russia is flying in Syria right now.

    About the speed, yes that's right, Russia's actions were very quick, unexpected, and not very transparent.
    Yet somehow I prefer the Soviet way - when the Politburo at least debated amongst themselves for an entire year before deciding to send our servicemen into harms way fighting in a foreign country.
    Here it was like - that's it, we've decided, and now we've done it, case closed. No-one here even had time to form an opinion or get their bearings. All of a sudden we're committed with our own troops - to a civil war in a Middle Eastern country.

    Note I'm not really criticizing the Russian campaign in Syria on anything in particular. It's meant to be on a different scale to the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan; in fact they explicitly want to avoid that experience by avoiding approaching anywhere near the commitment that was seen there. And the situation is quite different too, as is the mission for the Russian military.

    I understand your point, but things are very different and the situation isn't quite the same.

    for instance, Syria still has a lot of its actual infrastructure that is needed in the areas controlled by Assad. Rest were very none performing prior. Russia's contribution has been quite good even if modest, and the repair and modernization of the repair plant in Syria was a godsend. Actually, it was very surprising and absolutely very nice to hear. There have been other little things here and there like a new facility to produce flour as an example. There has been a lot of talk about the investments into Syria. Actually, compared to Afghanistan, this can pay off quite well, especially if done right other than simply throwing money and engineers into the mixture. Syria has, even under Assad still a fairly large population and the war would have made a lot of them unemployed or scrounging for money. Iran is taking its advantage and moving production of car development in Syria (of course the plant already existed). I imagine there are other facilities that are under performing or not performing at all. Russia can gain out of it too. For instance, agriculture goods, construction goods (even though Russia increased production of cement, it still imports a ridiculous amounts of it. This is where Syria can come in as an example), then there is the electronics market and even financial market which some Russian banks could also gain out of this. Same with telecomunications and such.

    Soviets did things very differently. It seemed that they built not for the soviet demand but for potential demand for others. Instead, this time, Russia invests in clearly industries and groups that will bring money back and or products that are in demand. This will benefit Syria greatly.

    As for logistics, Russia seems to be doing quite well with the transport of equipment via the black sea to med sea and back; with aircrafts flying over the caspian, through Iran and then through Iraq. As for equipment - it seems Russia isn't even close to short on equipment. And as much as we talk about service life of such stuff, Syria is still operating equipment much older than what Russia has laying around. This can make good for all the equipment sitting in the open graveyards or in any facilities. As for ammunition, Russia was already moving to new production and thus as mentioned, there is a massive storage of old munitions that need to be used. This already saves costs on that and also entices the authorities to purchase into newer equipment. This also gives good live testing of the equipment. As cyber said, the Russian forces are far better organized and seems to me, better trained/equipped than the soviet army was and has become very efficient/capable than before.

    I don't believe that Russia should send boots on the ground to fight for Syria, but the reasons being mentioned are something I cannot agree with. Instead, it would be more effective to send intelligence personnel and trainers, as well as start a new program for new units/company to operate in Syria that are Syrians themselves that are willing to fight. I imagine more would be willing to fight if they had the proper support. SAA doing a lot better now than before.

    ExBeobachter1987
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:06 am

    Cyberspec wrote:@FP,

    The current Russian Army is more efficient and nimble compared to the Soviet Army and it's only getting better....interesting that you forget to mention that the Western Armies are also a shadow of themselves compared to Cold War standards in terms of numbers....I find it comical it takes a coalition of several countries to muster a couple of squadrons....and these guys are going to conquer Russia and China Laughing pirat

    The Western armies are just like the Russian army "more efficient and nimble" compared to their Cold War counterparts.


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    Russian Navy chases off Turkish vessel impeding drill platform transit in Black Sea

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:47 pm

    Russian Navy chases off Turkish vessel impeding drill platform transit in Black Sea

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #7

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