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    T-90S "Bhishma"

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    Austin
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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:24 pm

    No it cant be old deal , its a new deal since it came after the ex Gen VKS wrote a letter to Government on deficiet war reserves.

    http://m.indianexpress.com/news/gen-waved-red-flags-many-times-on-tank-ammo-air-defence/929735/

    The deal includes 3BM42 , Invar and Konkurs

    Some portion of 3BM42 and Invar will be imported others will be lic manufactured.


    The key question to ask is what guns do the Avadi Manufactured Lic T-90 includes and if its 2A62M-2 gun.can it fire any round better than 3BM42. Its not much hard to find that out.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:56 pm


    The deal includes 3BM42 , Invar and Konkurs

    Some portion of 3BM42 and Invar will be imported others will be lic manufactured.


    Austin i am perfectly aware of the declarations of General

    i am interested in the news asserting that THIS deal is surely for 3VBM17 rounds with 3BM42 projectile ,ok ?

    Can you point out to me THIS news ?
    I want to know what the initial news that has generated this "blaze".

    I repeat ,it is still possible that India will,at the end, opt for other 3VBM17 rounds ,but Rosoboronexport press strongly for 3VBM19 rounds ,which would be not only perfectly compliant but would even surpass Indian revised penetration requirements for APFSDS; the debate is on price......



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    This is a nice discussion on Arjun vs T-90

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:00 pm

    Can you point any news report where Rosoboronexport says 3VBM19 rounds will be exported ?


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:28 pm

    It appear that T-90MS will find its first order - 296 units- in India :

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20121105/main5.htm


    Several in service T-90S, moreover, will receive extensive modernization using T-90MS's components (ostensibly "Kalina" FCS, upgraded gun and modified autoloader, but not the engine).

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:58 am

    It looks more like modernised T-90 Bishma then T-90MS it has some features developed for T-90MS but by and large retains what the existing T-90 has and adds few more features.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:29 am




    It looks more like modernised T-90 Bishma then T-90MS it has some features developed for T-90MS but by and large retains what the existing T-90 has and adds few more features.



    Austin from what the article say ,India will buy 236 T-90MS (likely in place of next delivery of T-90S):


    "236 of the latest version of the tanks have been ordered, said top sources,"



    while, contemporaneously, implementing some of its features into existing T-90S (which ,like you note, will only correspond to a modernization).


    ".....while explaining that additional features will be incorporated on the existing T-90 platform with no change in the engine or its traction".


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:20 pm

    No i dont think it would be the latest T-90MS but what the existing Bishma will have since its under lic production.

    So what they will add in new model is MRS for Gun and Autotracker probably for tank fire missile.

    Other features that would come as was disclosed by DGMF in an interview i posted in this thread some time back are new APS and Air conditioning system.

    But the key feature of T-90MS like Kalina FCS and Relikt Armour will be missile , also missing is a more powerful engine and new Gun .....so its a partial upgrade not a full T-90MS

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:22 pm

    Heres one more news on T-90 upgrade

    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/11/06/digital/

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:22 pm

    Russia will make the Indian T-90 "digital"

    Kits that make the tank "digital" - an automated control system (ACS), which is based on tank subsystem ESU TK "Constellation-2M". The set allows commanders to control units on the battlefield in real time, connecting all armored vehicles into a single information network.

    - The tanks are displays showing all the tactical information about the location of friendly forces and enemy forces. With ACS commanders of all units receive tasks from higher headquarters, give orders, and control their execution, make changes in the plans. The interface is very similar to a computer game strategy, - he said.

    Performed two sets of ACS - for linear and command tanks. Commander's system is more complex, equipped with additional displays. According to the source, the negotiations with India are conducted throughout the year, and the success of the talks facilitated by the fact that the main tank of Indian Army - Russian T-90.

    Especially for customers Russians conducted additional tests and screenings "Constellation." Indian military check whether work set in the desert, the mountains, in crossing water obstacles. Most of them concerned whether the transmitter is to break through the dust and rain.

    - Not everything went smoothly, the equipment and software had to be replaced. The hardest thing was to integrate our electronic brains with Indian, but we managed - said the defense industry.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:43 pm


    Heres one more news on T-90 upgrade


    This is not a T-90S upgrade, it is a new unified networked battle management's system , it has nothing to do with orders of new T-90MS and modernization of existing tank's basin.

    Very likely this order ,representing the first great scale export order of a modern unified BMS worldwide, confirm the news of modernization of operative T-90S ,because "Kalina" is designed to work synergistically with it, in particular thanks to its authomatic designation/targeting capability.

    FCS lacking this capbility (among which vast majority of western built ones) cannot capitalize several decisive features of Constellation-2M's network.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Zivo on Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:05 pm

    scratch

    Damn journalists. Having read both those articles, the only conclusion that can be reached from the text is that some T-90's will get some upgrades.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:48 am

    So what they will add in new model is MRS for Gun and Autotracker probably for tank fire missile.

    Should point out Austin, that an autotracker as part of the fire control system is not just about firing missiles more accurately, though the effect on accuracy for missile performance would be greatly improved.

    Sitting in a moving vehicle following a moving target with an aiming crosshair is not easy... even with stabilised weapons and sights. The autotracker makes it all much much easier.


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:06 am

    Mindstorm , I told you there are no T-90MS getting imported but only some subsystem developed for it is being transferred to Indian T-90S i.e MRS and Auto Tracker.

    Now we know it might also have BMS system , Look at DGMF interview i posted in previous page it talks of new APS and AC being fitted to it.

    So basicly if all goes well we would see Indian T-90S Bishma getting the following as part of its modernisation.

    1 ) Auto Tracker
    2 ) MRS
    3 ) APS
    4 ) BMS
    5 ) AC

    What it wont get when compared to T-90MS are

    1 ) Kalina FCS
    2 ) New 2A45-M5 Gun
    3 ) K-6 Relikt
    4 ) New Engine

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:02 am

    Of course you need to keep in mind that the Indian tank already has a 1,000hp engine so replacing that with a 1,150hp engine might simply not be worth the cost and time. The extra engine power would probably require changes to the transmission and suspension that will add to costs for a relatively minor increase in real power.

    Equally changing the gun wont make a huge amount of difference unless you start spending a lot more money on new main gun ammo to reap the benefits of such a change.

    Personally I think a serious joint venture to develop a double warhead HEAT missile with large fold out wings and a cheap MMW radar seeker with a simple combination of high launch speed (from a propellent stub charge) and cheap and simple pulse jet motor to allow higher average speed to long range targets, together with terminal MMW radar guidance and a diving top attack flight profile would be a fairly straight forward thing to design and build with Russian technology and Indian know how and money. With focussed HEAT warheads that operate from 5-10m range in a steep diving attack flight profile most tanks would be vulnerable and flight range could be 10km or more depending on target detection and ID performance.


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:39 am

    The Gun and FCS are key component on the new T-90MS ,the Kalina FCS can gurantee a 21 out of 22 hits on the target while older FCS on T-90 like the one India uses can gurantee 15 hits out of 22.

    The Gun used on Indian T-90 are older 2A46-M2 type cannot fire the newer rounds but only Mango.


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:53 am

    It wont be long before systems and equipment developed for the new generation MBT (ie armata/kurganets-25/and boomerang) are transferred to the T-90 for the purposes of commonality and maintainence. Things like modular armour packages and NERA as well as APS of course can be redesigned and retrofitted to older vehicles to improve their performance and for export.


    The thing is that India doesn't need all the features of T-90MS right now, and most of the net centric stuff is pretty meaningless without the infrastructure and integration of artillery and air power and other ground based assets to support it.

    If Afghanistan works as advertised then heavy armour might not be a necessity and lighter more mobile vehicles could be used to save a lot of money without increasing risk to service personnel.


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:17 pm



    Mindstorm , I told you there are no T-90MS getting imported but only some subsystem developed for it is being transferred to Indian T-90S i.e MRS and Auto Tracker.



    Therefore a news containing a correction of the information previously given has been provided.

    Can you add a link to this news? Thanks.


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:51 pm

    Mindstorm i dont get what you are saying.

    But you have to understand the Indian media they tend to use advanced version and state of art as often as a girl changes her clothes.

    T-90MS wont come to India unless it goes through eloborate trials in India and that wont be hidden.

    Most likely Indians are looking at selective upgrade of existing T-90S where it makes sense and add stuff thats more drastically needed like APS and an AC as confirmed by DGMF.

    Wait for more news or some MOD report to confirm on T-90MS purchase till then its all in the air.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:41 pm

    T-90MS wont come to India unless it goes through eloborate trials in India and that wont be hidden.


    If any, trials would be several times more in need for acceptance of Constellation-2M than hard, "metric" improvements implemented in T-90MS ,in particular: ballistic protection increase of the new armor fillers, performances of the export version of "Relikt" ERA, increase of engine power , increase of energy supply etc..etc...

    T-90 is a platform already widely tested by part of India ,therefore acceptance of the metric and parametric improvements of T-90MS (in a way not different than acceptance of capability's imcrease of a Leo-2A6 for an Army employing 2A4) don't generate any type problem.

    To the contrary are just software and vectronic modifications at need the most accurate examinations....even more if someone chose to adopt a very modern unified BMS (in part still subject to the last refinements modifications) working synergetically with target auto-tracking of FCS in linked vehicles.



    Therefore ,from your informations, 236 T-90S will receive the "modernization" leaving the others uncapable to capitalize the integration of Constellation-2M and cooperative engagement employing the advanced target auto-tracking (a capability ,at now present only on Merkawa IV and Leclerc MBT? ).


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:23 pm

    Mindstorm , Like i said we need to wait and see how things evolve.

    I am skeptical this new T-90 is the MS version its more of improvement over existing T-90 as is mentioned in the interview from IA.

    T-90MS will likely not come because of Arjun Mk2 development and only specific improvement deemed necessary will be made to Indian T-90 in batches covering most T-90.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:58 pm

    Going by what has been reported so far, I think 'Áustin' is right. Although I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a MS purchase down the line.

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    T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:24 am

    India pretty much has a three tank structure, with large numbers of T-72s, significant numbers of T-90s and Arjun tanks which are in such small numbers that any II upgrade would probably be worth applying to existing vehicles for commmonality purposes.

    This means they have a numbers tank, a quality numbers tank and a quality indigenous tank.

    A lot of the features of the T-90SM the Indian Army has decided it doesn't need, but of the features it is interested in I would think that applying these features to both the new T-90s and the T-90s already in service as well as the T-72s would make a lot of sense in terms of commonality for operations and maintainence.

    In the case of the Russian military it makes sense to save money and apply cheap T-72 upgrades till their new MBTs are ready, but for India unless they are planning to buying something else, I would think that investing in T-90s now would make sense.

    After about 2015 UVZ will likely not keep the T-90 production facilities except for the odd export order, which means minimal production capacity


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    From licensed assembly to joint production:India wants to co-produce Russian Tank T-90C

    Post  mikhail on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:34 pm

    ndia is interested in continuing the licensed production of Russian T-90C tanks. This came in a statement by Chief Executive of the Russian-Indian tank contract, General Director of "Uralvagonzavod" scientific industrial corporation Oleg Siyenko at the IDEX-2013 arms fair. On Monday, a Russian T-90C tank participated in a dynamic demonstration of technical equipment at the exhibition in Abu-Dhabi, and earned a lot of praise from experts.

    On the basis of total characteristics, today the T-90C tank is the best tank on the international market. According to Siyenko, "there are hundreds of already manufactured tanks". This tank is produced on the base of the Russian license at a tank factory in the city of Avadi, in the state of Tamil Nadu. Today, the T-90C tank is the main striking force of the Indian army. India is interested in transition from the currently existing large-unit assembly to complete localization of production and subsequent modernization of the previously jointly manufactured machines. According to estimations of experts, in 2014-2019, India can additionally purchase about 600 new, modernized T-90C tanks and start their complete licensed production on the spot.

    Today, India sticks to the same pattern at other enterprises producing various military equipment under Russian licenses. Indian Corporation "Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd" produces one of the world's best fighters Su-30 MKI under the Russian license. Today, together with India we manufacture a prospective fifth generation fighter - FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft). It is for several years now that the Russian-Indian BrahMos joint venture, named in honor of the Russian Moscow River and the Indian Brahmaputra, produces the fastest BrahMos cruise missiles.

    Meanwhile, Russian designers are working at a new tank of the fifth generation. It requires radically different engineering and technical solutions, editor-in-chief of the National Defense magazine Igor Korotchenko says.

    “This tank will be controlled remotely. This project will be the first step on the way to a fully «unmanned» weapon, to so-called combat robots, about which science fiction authors wrote last century”.

    And who knows, maybe, this tank can also be created by a joint effort of Russian and Indian gunsmiths.


    http://english.ruvr.ru/2013_02_19/From-licensed-assembly-to-joint-production-India-wants-to-produce-Russian-tanks-T-90C/

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:28 am

    It would be interesting if India does decide to licence produce the T-90S in large numbers if they decide to further develop upgrades for themselves.

    The Russian Army has decided that turret bustle ammo is too exposed to enemy fire, but the Indian Army might decide that the extra 31 rounds of ammo in the turret bustle autoloader would be an ideal solution for them to use longer penetrators in their existing tanks, though of course adding a turret bustle autoloader would be rather more expensive than altering the existing autoloader.

    With the 22 rounds under the floor that would give them 53 rounds ready to load and fire and a clever modification could allow the bustle loader to be loaded like a rifle magazine rather than hand loaded like the under floor system. Loading could involve a crane putting an auto loader with 22 rounds and propellent charges, which are transfered by autoloader into the under floor magazine automatically, and then be removed and replaced with a full 31 round autoloader and the tank will be ready for combat (once the MG ammo is loaded and fuel pumped of course...).


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Viktor on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:27 pm

    Another Russia-India ammunition deal

    The Indian company will produce ammunition for T-90 under license from the Russian Federation

    Sponsored content

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