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    T-90S "Bhishma"

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    GarryB
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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 21, 2012 6:49 am

    I must say it is a shame about the Arjun II as I think it looked good, but it is clear from this information that the Russians really want to cooperate with India in building new tanks... and I think the Indian Army will benefit from this if they choose this path.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:30 am

    This is a nice discussion on Arjun vs T-90 , it is important because all the people in panels are retd Generals or very Senior Officers who have worked on Arjun program and on T-90 and have vast experience with both.

    They clearly say while Arjun is a good tank the reason why T-90 was selected is because its equally good and main thing is it has far better logistics support is good on maintenance and can be used in any terraine.

    Really nice debate to watch.

    Defence Line - Army's Battle With Arjun - 23 June 2012 - Part 1

    Defence Line - Army's Battle With Arjun - 23 June 2012 - Part 2

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:27 am

    India is buying huge amount of 3BM-42 and Invar missile in a deal worth more than a $1 billion

    link

    10,000 3UBK-Invar missiles for T-90S tanks for Rs 1,386 crore from Russia.

    15,000 3UBK-Invar missiles for T-90S tanks for Rs 2,079 crore from Bharat Dynamics.

    66,000 "armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot'' tank shells for Rs 1,386 crore.



    Any reason why Russia is not selling DU rounds , the capability of 3BM-42 ( 450 - 500 mm ) is not something great in this age and time.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:41 am

    the capability of 3BM-42 ( 450 - 500 mm ) is not something great in this age and time.

    It should be effective against the large majority of opposing forces tanks in the region.

    Plus the problems of clean up in training grounds and shooting ranges with DU far outweigh the advantages... especially when alternatives get the job done anyway.

    You should also keep in mind that by using the older rounds they don't need to upgrade all the guns and autoloaders, which also saves a lot of money.

    Even minor things can be important... for instance the barrel of the PKT coaxial MG was made longer than the standard PKM barrel so that the muzzle velocity matched the SG43 machine guns previously used as coaxial machine guns. A minor modification to a new machine gun saved an enormous amount of money that would have been needed to recalibrate the optical sights for tanks for the coaxial mgs.


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:49 am

    Garry , Indian Army is asking for 600 mm that is not available from Russian stable.

    Israel IMI had it it got banned , DRDO will take long time to develop.

    So basicly it the case of making the most of what we can get from Russia.

    So they need to export round of 600-650 mm even if its DU or let the newer 3BM59 or 3BM60 exported

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:21 am

    I imagine they are buying these older rounds for the T-72s? When you consider training use, and the number of T-72s still around, it is not that big of a number. And, the shell is adequate for most neighboring tanks.

    India has what, almost 2k T-72s? That's barely over 30 shells per tank, nothing to be worried about. Most of the existing stock must be gone/old, so this is an interim solution.

    I would be surprised if something more modern was not acquired for the T-90.
    Russia has better non DU shells than 3BM42, they gotta clear them for export at some point.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:27 am

    TR1 wrote:I imagine they are buying these older rounds for the T-72s? When you consider training use, and the number of T-72s still around, it is not that big of a number. And, the shell is adequate for most neighboring tanks.

    India has what, almost 2k T-72s? That's barely over 30 shells per tank, nothing to be worried about. Most of the existing stock must be gone/old, so this is an interim solution.

    I would be surprised if something more modern was not acquired for the T-90.

    Then be surprised its for T-90 that the best round T-90 has so far.

    Can you imagine Israel IMI had agreed to 125 mm Mk2 round that does 600 but due to corruption allegation they got blacklisted and now Indian best ammo will be 3BM-42 Mango

    I always wonder what happened with the 600-650 3BM-42M round they probably never went out of drawing board ?

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:32 am

    Given how many T-72s India has alone, there is no way they are buying that as a long term solution for both T-72s AND T-90s. Just not enough shells.
    I highly suspect better munition will be sought for T-90s later in the decade.

    3BM42M went into production a while ago AFAIK. The question is how many more modern rounds have been stockpiled.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:36 am

    Do you have any source or more details on 3BM42M going into production ?

    I had info that there was 3BM59 and 3BM60 that were new rounds that went into production but not available for export.

    Indian T-72 fleet will be rationalised to 1200 T-72 after upgrade , major bulk will be T-90 and the new rounds purchased is over and above the existing one that India has in stocks and war reserves which were not fully stocked so this urgent purchase.

    Just want to know what is latest round available from Russia.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:44 am

    Austin wrote:This is a nice discussion on Arjun vs T-90 , it is important because all the people in panels are retd Generals or very Senior Officers who have worked on Arjun program and on T-90 and have vast experience with both.

    They clearly say while Arjun is a good tank the reason why T-90 was selected is because its equally good and main thing is it has far better logistics support is good on maintenance and can be used in any terraine.

    Really nice debate to watch.

    Defence Line - Army's Battle With Arjun - 23 June 2012 - Part 1

    Defence Line - Army's Battle With Arjun - 23 June 2012 - Part 2


    Very interesting and educated debate ; above all centered around the right assuptions and the most relevant parameters.

    Some time ago i myself had highlighted those type of problems (see mine posts 708 and 719 at pag 48 of this same thread) talking of the immense logistic and startegic/tactical mobility problems of MBTs in the weight class of M1 Abrams and why the question of mobility limits, length of logistic tail and operation's costs was elements capable to enormously influence the achievement of the crucial local [b]Force Concentration, control of Tactical Tempo,the Predictability of the Attack's Vector and Vulnerability of the Logistical Chain .



    Last edited by Mindstorm on Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:45 am

    Well I have no clue what round is cleared for export ATM, but I seem to recall Fofanov saying 3BM42M production was launched at slow rate a while ago....I need to find the exact quote though, may have been a different round.

    I find it shocking that the same India that they helped with nuclear submarine program, they won't export a more modern round than ancient (though still useful) 3BM42.

    Given T-90 induction rate they will have to buy more shells it seems in any case this decade, so hopefully more details will be shed then. Maybe given the urgency this round was chosen due to cost + speed of production.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:55 am

    Mindstorm wrote:Very interesting and educated debate ; above all centered around the right assuptions and the most relevant parameters.

    Some time ago i myself had highlighted those type of problems (see mine posts 708 and 719 at pag 48 of this same thread) talking of the immense logistic and startegic/tactical mobility problems of MBTs in the weight class of M1 Abrams and why the question of mobility limits, length of logistic tail and operation's costs was elements capable to enormously influence the achievement of the cruciallocal Force Concentration, control of Tactical Tempo,the Predictability of the Attack's Vector and Vulnerability of the Logistical Chain .

    Yes one of the most informative and educated debate i saw in recent time over the fan boy types debate that circle around Arjun that we see on forums ......I think that is a key difference in the way Generals and Commanders think over well read civilian.

    Arjun lost out on logistics even though its a good tank and over came many obstacle to reach to the stage where it is , I think the only reason why it is even pursued in small numbers is due to DRDO pressure and it helps build indiginous capability.

    No Army in the world operates NATO and Russian standard tank side by side they are grossly incompatiable and their logistics do not mingle at all........a big dent since Army moves on logistics.

    The fact that IA dares to operate them side by side show the commitment it has for arjun , I am sure even if this was US army it would have been cancelled long back as logistics , standardisation and maintenance defines what they operate.

    The interesting part is FMBT thats the future tank of Arjun has a weight of aprox 48 T is what the Indian Army wants and that is exactly what T-90MS also has obtained.


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:00 pm

    Came to know interesting piece of information on T-90 tanks from mp.net link

    It seems the T-90S tanks uses 2A46M-2 Gun which is the same gun that Indian T-72 uses.

    To fire 3BM-46 or 3BM-42M round you need 2A46M-4/2A46M-5 Gun pplus a modified autoloader and only T-90A and T-90MS have 2A46M-5 Gun.

    So essentially we cannot use better rounds than 3BM-42 even if they are available for us unless ofcourse we change the Gun and autoloader which is big ask.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:15 pm

    Can you imagine Israel IMI had agreed to 125 mm Mk2 round that does 600 but due to corruption allegation they got blacklisted and now Indian best ammo will be 3BM-42 Mango

    I always wonder what happened with the 600-650 3BM-42M round they probably never went out of drawing board ?


    Austin i truly don't understand from where you have got the idea that the new contract (that still in work for 66000 rounds) with Rosoboronexport will be signed for 3BM42 projectile (3VBM17 round) instead of 3BM42M projectile (3VBM19 round); from what was mine informations Rosoboronexport strongly press and try to promote for this second ,bigger, ammunition's deal just 3VBM19 round.

    The deal obviously,being still not signed could still go toward 3VBM17 rounds ,but i don't understand from where you have taken this certainty.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:45 pm

    Well India has several kinds of T-90, older cast turret, and newer welded turret which looks much like T-90A. Does it not use 2A62M5?

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:03 am

    It seems the T-90S tanks uses 2A46M-2 Gun which is the same gun that Indian T-72 uses.

    The T-90S is the export model of the T-90A.

    Personally I think this is a fairly small purchase that will likely lead to negotiations over licence production of newer rounds.

    The previous controversy seems to revolve around locally produced tank ammo not performing to spec, so this fairly modest order of less than 30 shells per tank, which would equate to about 2-3 combat loads of APFSDS rounds is likely a stopgap so training programs can continue with real ammo available, and negotiations started on real longer term solutions involving better ammo.

    Russian tank ammo has moved on since the mid 1980s when Mango was new and I rather suspect newer nonradioactive materials have been developed for some rounds in certain configurations to do the job.

    The question is... are they prepared to pay the price for the performance.

    In the longer term they might look at introducing new guns for future upgrades and new ammo types.

    The Russian Army rejected the Burlak design which had a rear turret bustle autoloader as used in the Black Eagle that held 31 rounds horizontally in a straight ram autoloader separated from the crew compartment, so you could put the HEAT and HE Frag ammo in the underfloor armoured autoloader, and the long rod penetrators in the rear turret bustle and drive around with 53 rounds ready to use.

    The Russian Army rejected it because the turret bustle ammo was too exposed to enemy fire, but the India Army might think the extra ready to use ammo that can include long rod penetrators might be worth it.

    Such an autoloader could be fitted to T-90 and T-72 alike and the weight would offset the weight of the gun and frontal turret armour so it would relieve stress on the turret ring too.

    With such a strategic even Mango could be licence produced in an longer form with more propellent to improve performance cheaply.


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:22 am

    TR1 wrote:Well India has several kinds of T-90, older cast turret, and newer welded turret which looks much like T-90A. Does it not use 2A62M5?

    India first batch of T-90 was cast turret then they went for welded turret in later batches and lic production at Avadi.

    The problem is the gun India uses 2A62M2 for T-90 and T-72 which is a problem when it comes to better round .....its a big problem if true , they will either have to develop themself or go for Israel round but IMI is banned

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:36 am

    Austin wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Well India has several kinds of T-90, older cast turret, and newer welded turret which looks much like T-90A. Does it not use 2A62M5?

    India first batch of T-90 was cast turret then they went for welded turret in later batches and lic production at Avadi.

    The problem is the gun India uses 2A62M2 for T-90 and T-72 which is a problem when it comes to better round .....its a big problem if true , they will either have to develop themself or go for Israel round but IMI is banned



    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-294.html

    According to Dimmi even early T-90 has 2A62M4, and T-90A has 2A62M5, while the later batch Indian T-90SA is basically export T-90A, so why would they mount an older gun?

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:44 am

    TR1 wrote:http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-294.html

    According to Dimmi even early T-90 has 2A62M4, and T-90A has 2A62M5, while the later batch Indian T-90SA is basically export T-90A, so why would they mount an older gun?

    I think India had opted for TOT of 2A62M-2 gun in the original deal and OFB was making it.

    So unless they opted for better guns it would be 2A62M-2 gun.

    I see no reason my IA should import so many like 60 thousand mango round unless the limitation is gun

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:21 am

    60,000 is not actually that many... it would work out as a reserve of 60 rounds per tank for 1,000 tanks which is not actually that many... perhaps 6 reloads per vehicle.

    Remember most tanks will be carrying about 40 rounds but of those about 12-15 will be APFSDS rounds with the rest being HE shells and HEAT shells and of course missiles.

    It sounds like a stopgap purchase to have rounds for training or in the event of a small border dispute while they sort out local production for much larger numbers of rounds for war stocks.

    This is a temporary band aid solution and I suspect the final solution might actually be a hybrid round that can be used in the older guns but uses newer technologies and powders to improve performance to a desirable level.

    I rather suspect that the main difference between the different guns is the gun barrel itself with more modern production methods and materials allowing higher pressures and slightly redesigned loading mechanisms changing the way the rounds are removed from the autoloader and fed into the gun breach.

    Replacing a gun barrel is straight forward, though replacing an entire gun and autoloader feeder might take longer... it could easily be included as part of an upgrade program.

    The risk of new ammo being used in an old gun that can't handle it and there being an incident would make the purchase of older safer ammo sensible, but once the upgrades have been made certainly even a Mango with just a lengthened penetrator might suffice for the purposes the Indian Army have in mind.

    One of the coolest models of T-34 was a version with a ZIS-3 57mm high velocity gun that could penetrate 198mm of armour at 1,000m. It was not widely deployed because the 76.2mm gun had a much more effective HE shell and in 1941 there were no German tanks that had that level of armour to warrant widespread deployment.
    By the time the Tigers and Panthers entered the front lines an 85mm gun was seen as the better option, but then if you had a time machine and could go back to 1941 then the 30mm cannon of a BMP-3 together with the HE firepower of the 100mm rifled gun of the same vehicle would make it the best armed "tank". Obviously in terms of armour it would not be ideal, though certainly no worse than the Panzer II and III and even early model IV.


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:01 am


    So unless they opted for better guns it would be 2A62M-2 gun.

    I see no reason my IA should import so many like 60 thousand mango round unless the limitation is gun


    I repeat : Where this information that the 66000 rounds of the NEW deal will be 3VBM17 with 3BM42 projectile come from ?

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:43 am

    Mindstorm check the news


    http://m.indianexpress.com/news/gen-waved-red-flags-many-times-on-tank-ammo-air-defence/929735/

    Only after the Army pursued the case, has an agreement been finally firmed up under which 30,000 rounds will be imported directly from Russia to meet immediate requirements while 60,000 will be produced in India.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120629/174308214.html

    The first round of negotiations on the delivery of 3UBK20 (Mango) tank ammunition has been completed and the second round - on its licensed manufacture in India - will start on Monday,” company deputy head Igor Sevastyanov said.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:44 am

    Austin wrote:Mindstorm check the news


    http://m.indianexpress.com/news/gen-waved-red-flags-many-times-on-tank-ammo-air-defence/929735/

    Only after the Army pursued the case, has an agreement been finally firmed up under which 30,000 rounds will be imported directly from Russia to meet immediate requirements while 60,000 will be produced in India.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120629/174308214.html

    The first round of negotiations on the delivery of 3UBK20 (Mango) tank ammunition has been completed and the second round - on its licensed manufacture in India - will start on Monday,” company deputy head Igor Sevastyanov said.


    Austin, please don't joke.

    I have asked to you where came from the new that the deal in work with Russia for indiam APFSDS round will be for 3VBM17 with 3BM42 projectile ,ok ?

    We have alrerady debated several times of incredible ignorance and comically wronged informations present in the media circle leading to laughable information spreding like cholera on sites and forum attended by ignorant people,


    negotiations on the delivery of 3UBK20 (Mango) tank ammunition....

    Razz Razz Razz


    ok , after the laughs we can finally talk of the real news where this information on the 3BM42 projectile for the 66000 round deal come from ?


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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:58 am

    Where did it came from well the Indian Media said so , Right now we are sure its the 3BM42 round but if it is something else then we would come to know.

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    Re: T-90S "Bhishma"

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:17 pm



    Austin you can point out a serious news from indian media where this information has been confirmed ?


    Do you know , i have the sad feeling that a big "cauldron" where the info on the past rushed stop-gap deal with Russia for 16000 3VBM17 rounds with 3BM42 projectile (signed in 2010, effective in 2011 and to be completed this year) , the license production of the round for "INVAR" GLATGM (3UBK20 ) and the new deal for 66000 APFSDS has been mixed-up in a truly hilarious concoction Razz Razz Razz .

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