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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

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    KiloGolf
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:31 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:That's why it is bewlidering.



    PS. this is not meant to be a stereotype but really a joke, yet there is a historical trend with these folks' conduct at war. Their leadership tends to order insane things and never keep certain "army conduct" code in line.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:35 am; edited 2 times in total

    Militarov
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:32 am

    KiloGolf wrote:Possible concern for the Russians.

    Interesting: Turkmen fighters showed off their Strela-2M (SA-7B) MANPADS, though it lacked 9B17 thermal battery.
    https://twitter.com/ain92ru/status/669310645653938176

    Various groups in Syria have them for years now. This one tho might be of Croatian origin (ex Yugoslavian stockpile).

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:41 am





    Seems Turkish/NATO fans atm are making coorinated efford on social networks to mock Russian civilian grade navigation equipment and create public opnion that "Russians sux and they got lost".

    "No wonder Russia's Su-24 got 'lost' in Turkey, check out the Walmart-Grade GPS system in their attack jets:"

    "2nd pic of a Russian Su-24 fighter jet using consumer grade Garmin GPS"

    And so on and on, there are thousands and thousands of tweets and FB posts like this, naturally source is our beloved Foxtrotalpha; http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-russian-attack-jets-use-walmart-grade-gps-systems-1703048443

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:42 am

    If true that's a big FU to the perpetrators of this trap

    via @AlMayadeenNews The 2nd #Russian Pilot was rescued by #SAA after a special operation behind enemy lines
    https://twitter.com/Ibra_Joudeh/status/669322820665610241

    Although I was under the impression both pilots were shown on tape dead..

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Zivo on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:46 am

    A US official told reuters that the Su-24 was shot down in Syria AFTER the airspace incursion.

    Odd to admit after "the Russian aircraft ignored 10 warnings"

    Vann7
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:47 am

    kvs wrote:Russia needs to fight back against the NATO "drang nach osten".   Syria, Iraq and Iran need to be supported to become a line against Turkey and
    the anti-Shia alliance of assorted vermin.    Kurds need full support from Russia to secure their future.

    Erdo-turd-land can threaten to shut down the Bosphorus.   Russia can make sure that it stays behind its southern border for the coming decades.
    No more incursions to chase Kurds and no more ISIS proxies.    Russia needs to commit massive amounts of hardware to this effort.   Smear ISIS
    out much faster.


    IF Turkey threaten to close the Bosphorus for Russai.. Russia can arm kurds to "fight ISIL" Cool

    But not sure if Russia see that as an act of war and enough to declare war against Turkey.
    no idea how much Russia economy depends on that bosphorus crossing. But Russia can counter attack Turkey in many ways.. with Kurds and by sinking all its merchant ships ,closing the Suez canal too with egypt help, to saudi Arabia and Turkey,that will spike the oil prices to heaven. It will be a limited slow scale world war but that can become big one on any time.  Russia can also sink all Turkey warship in black sea.. it will be difficult if not impossible for turkey to get close to Russia main land.. Im sure Russia before it went to Syria ,it had to take into account the very BIG possibility of a war with Turkey. this means that they had to be deploying very strong air defenses from Sochit to Rostov done and Crimea..like a shield.. in fact the most likely war of NATO against Russia was always turkey.. so it will be unthinkable that Russia have not been preparing for a full scale war against them and which targets to attack..  On the Syria front..Russia will be weak..since syria territory is not ideal for creating a bullet proof shield of air defenses with so much territory captured by terrorist.


    So Turkey can more effectively fight Russia in Syria. and if a war stat.. US can counter attack by starting the war in Ukraine. is a proxy war what Russia face.. for 5 years already. and the possibilities of it becoming direct are very high. . But in such kind of war.. lol  Turkey will end with all its economy industries bombed.. and NATO will not interfere.. regardless what you heard or its secretary cheerleader says.. Since US will like to be on the sidelines selling weapons while Russia and Turkey fight.

    and yes Turkey will be the BIGGEST LOSER.. i can see the nation disbanded in 5 years in a major civil war..if they go ahead with a war with Russia and IRAN .even worse that Syria.. no idea what Erdogan the bastard was thinking with starting a war against Russia ,that will drag IRAN too..and possibly CHINA .. Shocked  and with so big opposition of kurds in the front line.

    in a full scale war against turkey.. that Russia is forced to use nukes.. i can see Russia invading Turkey side near Greece that is a small territory and controlling the right gate.. i can also see Russia invaded CYprus and returning the eastern side to them that was invaded by turkey..and creating there a huge military base. in case goes with limited nuclear use.. to military bases.. etc.. But for Americans it doesn't matter if Ukraine and Turkey defeated.. as they expect they will be..this is because.... Its an economic war against Russa and the aim is to isolate Russia from Europe and crash its economy.. this is why Russia needs a bit of patience and long term planning in all its actions. and more than anything seek support ,even if only moral from Europe.. to defend against Turkey attacks.



    Last edited by Vann7 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:05 am; edited 3 times in total

    PapaDragon
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:48 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:I'm pretty sure that as we speak, things are happening. If not tomorrow, we may see a response by the end of this week.

    Hitting oil, hitting Turkmens, hitting JAN. They don't even need to hit Turkey. That' will happen in due time.

    Exactly, everything they used and did needs to be cranked up to eleven!!!

    Turkmens are done, when all is over they will be right there with Aztecs and Carthaginians...gone,poof,nothing....

    Eviscerate ISIS and other Turkish poodles and cash cows.

    This Turkish bullshittery will cost them dearly, what they did today was ambush, treachery, contract killing, plane bastardry, to hell with them!!!

    And if VKS even spots a single Turkish plane flying anywhere near Syria, LIGHT IT UP NO QUESTIONS, NO WARNING!!!


    Last edited by PapaDragon on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:52 am; edited 1 time in total

    OminousSpudd
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  OminousSpudd on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:48 am

    Fricken pilot prerogative, asshats. Just because your sexually repressed NATO wanks wouldn't be given jurisdiction to do this epic little DIY jobbie.


    Last edited by OminousSpudd on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:02 am; edited 1 time in total

    Rodinazombie
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Rodinazombie on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:48 am

    KiloGolf wrote:If true that's a big FU to the perpetrators of this trap

    via @AlMayadeenNews The 2nd #Russian Pilot was rescued by #SAA after a special operation behind enemy lines
    https://twitter.com/Ibra_Joudeh/status/669322820665610241

    Although I was under the impression both pilots were shown on tape dead..

    It doesnt state whether he is alive or not! Lets really hope that he is alive, though it seems a long shot at this stage.

    Hats off to the Syrians for getting him out.

    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:53 am

    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:Possible concern for the Russians.

    Interesting: Turkmen fighters showed off their Strela-2M (SA-7B) MANPADS, though it lacked 9B17 thermal battery.
    https://twitter.com/ain92ru/status/669310645653938176

    Various groups in Syria have them for years now. This one tho might be of Croatian origin (ex Yugoslavian stockpile).

    Didn't we talked about this like a month ago...

    PapaD: I think Turkish AF in Syrian Airspace might call it self Christmas Tree.

    Stealthflanker
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:55 am

    Militarov wrote:

    Seems Turkish/NATO fans atm are making coorinated efford on social networks to mock Russian civilian grade navigation equipment and create public opnion that "Russians sux and they got lost".

    "No wonder Russia's Su-24 got 'lost' in Turkey, check out the Walmart-Grade GPS system in their attack jets:"

    "2nd pic of a Russian Su-24 fighter jet using consumer grade Garmin GPS"

    And so on and on, there are thousands and thousands of tweets and FB posts like this, naturally source is our beloved Foxtrotalpha; http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-russian-attack-jets-use-walmart-grade-gps-systems-1703048443

    So what's that commercial grade GPS doing there ?

    i believe (gonna check) later Su-24 got its own moving map display or inertial navigation.. plus they're in touch with towers. That GPS however might serve as a "comparison check"

    --
    I have my own hypothesis though regarding this, related to maneuvering limitations (Su-24 is not really an agile fighter though) basically the Su-24 can't manuver quick enough to avoid Turkish airspace... so it crossed.

    The Turkish fighter in other hand.. doing the CAP patrol, warned the Russian fighter not to enter. The Russians know this warning but simply unable to pull the G's.

    Their mission must be very close to the border.

    Now i wonder..where's the Su-30SM's.

    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:56 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

    The gibberish this guy is spewing out is again out of some computer game; he thinks computer games are real. We have had a few like that on this forum already.

    For a mission like this, the F-16s wouldn't even carry AIM-120s; that dead weight would turn the hunter into the hunted.

    Link 16? Against Russia? Are you kidding? Radio silence is used outside of the computer games.

    20 mm gun on the F-16 is most consistent both with the initial Russian announcement and with the actual damage seen.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  OminousSpudd on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:02 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Seems Turkish/NATO fans atm are making coorinated efford on social networks to mock Russian civilian grade navigation equipment and create public opnion that "Russians sux and they got lost".

    "No wonder Russia's Su-24 got 'lost' in Turkey, check out the Walmart-Grade GPS system in their attack jets:"

    "2nd pic of a Russian Su-24 fighter jet using consumer grade Garmin GPS"

    And so on and on, there are thousands and thousands of tweets and FB posts like this, naturally source is our beloved Foxtrotalpha; http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-russian-attack-jets-use-walmart-grade-gps-systems-1703048443

    So what's that commercial grade GPS doing there ?

    i believe (gonna check) later Su-24 got its own moving map display or inertial navigation.. plus they're in touch with towers.  That GPS however might serve as a "comparison check"

    --
    I have my own hypothesis though regarding this, related to maneuvering limitations (Su-24 is not really an agile fighter though) basically the Su-24 can't manuver quick enough to avoid Turkish airspace... so it crossed.

    The Turkish fighter in other hand.. doing the CAP patrol, warned the Russian fighter not to enter. The Russians know this warning but simply unable to pull the G's.

    Their mission must be very close to the border.

    Now i wonder..where's the Su-30SM's.

    What I said above, yes, Su-24M has in-built GLONASS and GPS functionality. But it is completely a pilot's prerogative to install some third-party hardware. You take a hit and have electronic failure? No problem, you have a backup, and it's not just a map. Maybe he simply got stick of glancing down half the time.


    Last edited by OminousSpudd on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:07 am; edited 5 times in total

    Project Canada
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Project Canada on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:02 am

    I wish by tomorrow when I wake up Russia had already launched a crushing response to Terror Turkey Mad

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:04 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The gibberish this guy is spewing out is again out of some computer game; he thinks computer games are real. We have had a few like that on this forum already.

    For a mission like this, the F-16s wouldn't even carry AIM-120s; that dead weight would turn the hunter into the hunted.

    Link 16? Against Russia? Are you kidding? Radio silence is used outside of the computer games.

    20 mm gun on the F-16 is most consistent both with the initial Russian announcement and with the actual damage seen.

    AIM-120 is standard combat loadout for all F-16s (hell on all missions) since the late 90s. Mate, you are out of your depth, at least when it comes to our main regional adversary or our own Air Force (we both use Vipers/AMRAAM combo since about 2 decades ago).

    Jamming link 16 with what? where was the platform supposedly doing that? wtf. Just because the plane was not cut in half it doesn't mean a missile was not used. In fact ANNA news caught the missile trail. AMRAAM is a very lethal weapon by any standard.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:06 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  ultron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:06 am

    What happened to the plane's radar warning receiver? The RWR should have warned the pilots of enemy radar tracking.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  OminousSpudd on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:09 am

    ultron wrote:What happened to the plane's radar warning receiver? The RWR should have warned the pilots of enemy radar tracking.

    If it was an AMRAAM they have an initial passive stage... With no backup ground radar the Su-24 probably had about 10 seconds from launch to impact to react. The F-16s were close, and he was showing them his tail, even in an Su-30SM you'd be hard pressed to react in time.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:10 am

    ultron wrote:What happened to the plane's radar warning receiver? The RWR should have warned the pilots of enemy radar tracking.

    Not if they got an AMRAAM on their way.
    That thing is lethal when fired and doesn't require initial radar lock.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  ultron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:11 am

    The long range air defense radar at the air base should have tracked the F-16 well before it got close to the Su-24. Why didn't the long range radar warn?

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Zivo on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:11 am

    I've been reading reports all day, and just noticed I haven't seen a single one mention that according to Turkey, the SU-24 was only in their airspace for 17 seconds.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:14 am

    ultron wrote:What happened to the plane's radar warning receiver? The RWR should have warned the pilots of enemy radar tracking.

    Radio silence, of course, and no radars.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  ultron on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:15 am

    For days, I've been having bad feelings about Russian planes flying close to the Turkish border. Turkey is a sponsor of terrorism. If Russia lets Turkey gets away with it, another plane will be shot down, and another and so on.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:15 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Militarov wrote:

    Seems Turkish/NATO fans atm are making coorinated efford on social networks to mock Russian civilian grade navigation equipment and create public opnion that "Russians sux and they got lost".

    "No wonder Russia's Su-24 got 'lost' in Turkey, check out the Walmart-Grade GPS system in their attack jets:"

    "2nd pic of a Russian Su-24 fighter jet using consumer grade Garmin GPS"

    And so on and on, there are thousands and thousands of tweets and FB posts like this, naturally source is our beloved Foxtrotalpha; http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/these-russian-attack-jets-use-walmart-grade-gps-systems-1703048443

    So what's that commercial grade GPS doing there ?

    i believe (gonna check) later Su-24 got its own moving map display or inertial navigation.. plus they're in touch with towers.  That GPS however might serve as a "comparison check"

    --
    I have my own hypothesis though regarding this, related to maneuvering limitations (Su-24 is not really an agile fighter though) basically the Su-24 can't manuver quick enough to avoid Turkish airspace... so it crossed.

    The Turkish fighter in other hand.. doing the CAP patrol, warned the Russian fighter not to enter. The Russians know this warning but simply unable to pull the G's.

    Their mission must be very close to the border.

    Now i wonder..where's the Su-30SM's.

    What I said above, yes, Su-24M has in-built GLONASS and GPS functionality. But it is completely a pilot's prerogative to install some third-party hardware. You take a hit and have electronic failure? No problem, you have a backup, and it's not just a map. Maybe he simply got stick of glancing down half the time.

    You guys are acting like every Su-24 pilot crew does this. Not so:


    Project Canada wrote:I wish by tomorrow when I wake up Russia had already launched a crushing response to Terror Turkey Mad
    Same here, but unfortunately the chances of seeing part of Turkey flattened with Turkish blood spilled is low. The area where all this happened got hit hard by the VVS afterwards so hopefully a good number of those Turks and Turkmen suffered very excruciating deaths. I hope a gruesome fate follows for any Turk in Syria now.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:16 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:
    ultron wrote:What happened to the plane's radar warning receiver? The RWR should have warned the pilots of enemy radar tracking.

    If it was an AMRAAM they have an initial passive stage... With no backup ground radar the Su-24 probably had about 10 seconds from launch to impact to react. The F-16s were close, and he was showing them his tail, even in an Su-30SM you'd be hard pressed to react in time.


    This is why Russia needs Awacs fully covering the actions on the side of Turkey border.
    So it can warn Russian pilots of a missile launch.. but if there was ideal terrain and counter electronics present.. the missile could have been jammed. and the plane locked as a warning
    as soon get close to Syrian border .


    Last edited by Vann7 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #6

    Post  OminousSpudd on Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:17 am

    ultron wrote:The long range air defense radar at the air base should have tracked the F-16 well before it got close to the Su-24. Why didn't the long range radar warn?

    Of course it did... You can see it for yourself in the MoD's radar data release. But so what? F-16s on supposed routine patrol just like any other freaking day. It was cold blooded murder, it's like walking down a street and having a guy pull a gun and blow three holes in you at 2 meters. Good luck surviving that, Rambo.

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