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    Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

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    flamming_python
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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:06 am

    Firebird wrote:"its not THE Ukraine" and how to spell Kiev.

    Oh no you didn't! lol1

    " what do u mean with this I'm not Russian, I'm Ukrainian". I continued, " thats like someone saying "Im not Russian, I'm from Muscovy.."

    Oh no you didn't! lol1

    was when I mentioned the Kievan Rus, and the Ukrainian parts of Imperial Russia

    Oh no you didn't! lol1

    Seriously dude, Western/Galician nationalist Ukrainians are probably amongst the most butthurt, insecure groups of people in the world. Just try to avoid contact and especially verbal/written communication with them, anything you do say could and would in fact offend them and provoke them into a 'roidrage tirade as you yourself have unfortunately experienced.

    I had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of one such fellow in real life back in Britain. The guy acted like he was doing me a favour by talking in Russian with me, although in general despite the moaning about Russia and so on which I ignored, we got along alright.
    The last time we got into a political debate there was a guy from London there; he barely knew what the fuck was going on and I vaguely remember the whole thing other than the declaration from the West-Ukrainian at some point about how he belongs to a 'warrior people' and so on
    thumbsup


    Last edited by flamming_python on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:40 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:08 am

    TR1 wrote:It's mostly just butthurt internet trolls.
    The most notable are Tarsenko (Baron Harkonnen) who is the Kharokov troll. He always argued against Western anything in ridiculous ways (pro Russian and Ukranian ) but in recent years became a hardcore Ukrainian tank nationalist Smile

    Really? The Baron?
    Hell on mp.net I always regarded him as one of the main authorities on the rare occasions that he decided to grace us with one of his posts.
    Would never have suspected that he was a paid internet troll all this time; sure had me fooled! Some funny shit Very Happy

    Then there are truly hilarious retards like Kotobod, whos blog I recommend visiting if you want to laugh your ass off.
    The guy truly believes the Ukrainian defense industry is the source of great jealousy from Russia.

    link plz

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:08 pm

    Really? The Baron?
    Hell on mp.net I always regarded him as one of the main authorities on the rare occasions that he decided to grace us with one of his posts.

    x2.

    Generally he is pretty much an encyclopedia of knowledge, but like anyone he has his biases. A bit like Carlos Kopp...

    I wonder if Damien is also a stooge as I was reading today a claim that the west germans had an equivalent to Kontact-5 in testing in the 1970s but didn't put it into service. If that were true why did it take the west so long to work out how it worked, and why, for a long period, did they not believe its performance claims?

    And most importantly it was cheap and simple to make and realtively light... why didn't they use it?


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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:41 am

    Damien is certainly not a stooge, just a young guy with a passionate love for tanks. He can get carried away with his biases like all of us, but for the most part tries to guard the middle path.

    Baron used to be an interesting, if very biased pro-anything from USSR tank debater. I tolerated his abrasive style simply because he was an interesting counterpoint to the multitudes of pro-NationX posters on forums. However in recent years he became so increasingly radicalized I would not be shocked in the least if he was paid to post his crap. The guy has no intellectually honesty or integrity whatsoever, is a complete hypocrite, and ofc hides his face from the biggest Russian speaking AFV forums (OTvaga 2004) where his crap is called out constantly. Just look at his claims about tank engine development, Khrakov status, Ukranian defense industry, T-90MS "hump", Bulat vs T-90 performance, his laughable claims about the T-64....the guy is a shill. Nothing more.

    Regarding Khotob, enjoy:
    http://dimmi-tomsk.livejournal.com/157679.html#comments

    Read his comments LOL!

    "- Как бы позавидовали НАМ - Великим Украинцам Великой Украины, но сами же дали и ответ - вам летать на самом галимом ВТС этого класса перепиленом Ил-76ТД-МД-90...
    А у нас самолеты и самодостаточный ВПК."

    Hahahahahahahahahah. That is the kind of comments he makes on every Russian speaking blog (that is, the few that have not banned his dumb troll ass yet!)

    If you want to delve deeper into the mind of a Ukranian nationalist, here is his cave:

    http://kotobood.livejournal.com/

    That, ladies and gents, is the life of one forever butthurt and insecure.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:47 pm

    Man that guy can't even be for real.
    It's a shame Russian-Ukrainian relations are spoilt by tripe such as this.

    For all the snickering and verbal attacks on both sides - in reality both countries actually suffer for it.
    Ukrainian politics and foreign policy is far too unpredictable to make a stable partnership with; so there's certainly that angle, although on the other hand I think the Russian government is being a little too hard-ass themselves, and intentionally seeking out European partners of questionable value or rather for products of questionable value - when the capacities and designs of countries such as the Ukraine and Belarus are a more natural fit for Russia.

    It's a shame, because now because of this we are missing out the chance on co-operating on things like the An-70, An-148, An-124 and follow-up projects on them, new generations of rocket boosters and related space technology, helicopter engines, tank armour and engines for the next generation of armoured vehicles, nuclear reactors, metallurgical tech, aircraft carrier and capital ship production.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  Firebird on Sat May 11, 2013 12:52 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Firebird wrote:"its not THE Ukraine" and how to spell Kiev.

    Oh no you didn't! lol1

    " what do u mean with this I'm not Russian, I'm Ukrainian". I continued, " thats like someone saying "Im not Russian, I'm from Muscovy.."

    Oh no you didn't! lol1

    was when I mentioned the Kievan Rus, and the Ukrainian parts of Imperial Russia

    Oh no you didn't! lol1

    Seriously dude, Western/Galician nationalist Ukrainians are probably amongst the most butthurt, insecure groups of people in the world. Just try to avoid contact and especially verbal/written communication with them, anything you do say could and would in fact offend them and provoke them into a 'roidrage tirade as you yourself have unfortunately experienced.

    I had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of one such fellow in real life back in Britain. The guy acted like he was doing me a favour by talking in Russian with me, although in general despite the moaning about Russia and so on which I ignored, we got along alright.
    The last time we got into a political debate there was a guy from London there; he barely knew what the fuck was going on and I vaguely remember the whole thing other than the declaration from the West-Ukrainian at some point about how he belongs to a 'warrior people' and so on
    thumbsup

    You're absolutely right. This guy was utterly delusional. The one claim was that the Ukraine was "the real Russia". Then the other one was that they were the "real Cossacks".

    I said to someone once that they were the "Welsh of Russia".
    The Welsh btw can be the most bitter, resentful people in the whole of Britain. Their nationalists are brainless and delusional. The funny thing is that they actually took over England(their king did) to create Britain. So its even more funny to hear their claim that Britain is occupying them.

    I actually wonder if the Ukraine should be partititioned if they ever mess around with entry into the Eurasian Union.. Their pedantic stupidity esp in the military, can be quite amazing sometimes. When they tell me I'm a "Ukrainian not Russian" because my family are from Kiev, I do enjoy reminding them of their history.. Very Happy

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  flamming_python on Sat May 11, 2013 3:27 am

    Firebird wrote:You're absolutely right. This guy was utterly delusional. The one claim was that the Ukraine was "the real Russia". Then the other one was that they were the "real Cossacks".

    Fortunately they're only a minority. In the case of fellows such as him, a small minority albeit a loud one

    I said to someone once that they were the "Welsh of Russia".
    The Welsh btw can be the most bitter, resentful people in the whole of Britain. Their nationalists are brainless and delusional. The funny thing is that they actually took over England(their king did) to create Britain. So its even more funny to hear their claim that Britain is occupying them.

    Na, I've known plenty of Welsh. They always have a strong sense of national pride and knowledge of history; certainly they're not shy about using their language (unlike other Gaelics such as the Scots and Irish who forgot theirs), but I never ever picked up on any resentment towards the English or anyone else (even lighthearted ribbing that you might get in other parts of Britain), they're just a peaceful, mellow lot for the most part

    I actually wonder if the Ukraine should be partititioned if they ever mess around with entry into the Eurasian Union.. Their pedantic stupidity esp in the military, can be quite amazing sometimes. When they tell me I'm a "Ukrainian not Russian" because my family are from Kiev, I do enjoy reminding them of their history.. Very Happy

    What could they mess around with? They're either in or they're not. And frankly at this point I've stopped caring for the most part; this whole circus act with them goes on forever; let Europe worry about it if they think they can handle it (they won't)

    Partitioning them is no solution (not that Russia or anyone else has the right to partition an independent country anyway) - it will lead to more borders, more countries, more identities - and hence more problems

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  Regular on Sat May 11, 2013 8:04 pm

    Not sure about paid trolls. It could be far fetched. Media in my country call everyone that speak against my government a troll that was paid by Russian money.
    Oh common, I like to slap my own government in the face and I sure do have right to do that. I'm not super pro-Russian too, but still I'm being called russian troll Very Happy

    I too noticed that Baron became nationalistic. Must be the age and not government money Very Happy

    I've meet some nice people from Ukraine in pub in UK, but I always know how to approach them. But not long after I start making fun of their language, call them khlopci, khokhols, gogols or and tell jokes about them. First they laugh but then it pisses them off even I know that I'm not being serious. It was common thing in Soviet Union to make jokes about each other.
    If I make fun of Russians, they usually join in and do "naezd" on me and my country and we have good laugh, but Ukrainians seem to get insulted 8 times out of 10 Smile

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    Ukraine: getting out from underneath the bear?

    Post  TheRealist on Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:33 am

    Ukraine: getting out from underneath the bear?
    By Alan Riley  -  24.07.2013 / 16:00 CET

    Quite amazingly the Ukrainians appear to be taking credible steps to improve their energy security.
    The election of Viktor Yanukovych as president of Ukraine was expected to reinforce the historic cultural and political links between Kiev and Moscow. And for a time a real shift in Ukraine's geopolitical orientation eastwards did appear to be under way. Yanukovych extended the Crimean lease for the Russian Black Sea fleet to 2042 and heavily promoted the Russian language in Ukraine. However, over the past year or so it has become clear that the government in Kiev is taking the first credible steps to undermine the principal Russian lever on the Ukrainian economy, gas dependency.  

    The reason for decisive action from Kiev is Russia's repeated attempts to weaken Ukraine's energy security severely. Gazprom and its allies have already built Nordstream 1 and 2, which will permit the movement of 55 billion cubic metres (bcm), via the Baltic Sea, circumventing Ukraine. Russia's President Vladimir Putin has now announced his intention to build Nordstream 3 and 4, which would increase Baltic Sea transit capacity to 110bcm by 2018. Gazprom also looks like it may well go ahead with Southstream, which would provide a further 63bcm of capacity. The danger for Ukraine is that Russia will send no gas via Ukraine, depriving Ukraine of revenue – and also of leverage in negotiations with Moscow over gas prices.  

    Ukraine is already being squeezed by Gazprom's pricing strategy. In 2012, Ukraine consumed approximately 25bcm of Russian gas at a price $430 per thousand cubic metres (mcm). By contrast, much richer Germany paid only $379 mcm. And if $430 mcm was the sort of deal Kiev could get from Moscow when it had some transit leverage, what would the price to be paid when transit leverage disappeared?  

    The threat posed to the Ukrainian economy – and, indeed, to national independence – appears to have galvanised Kiev into developing a credible energy-security strategy.  

    The initial stage of this plan is to take advantage of falling EU gas demand and Union rules on energy liberalisation and interconnection to seek reverse-flow gas supplies. Ukraine approached gas companies from Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania for supplies. Their gas comes principally from Russia, at contract prices below the price that Ukraine pays Russia. By this May, Ukraine had already received 5bcm of re-directed Russian gas. Next year, it plans to increase reverse-flow supplies to between 8bcm and 10bcm.  

    A second stage of the plan is to switch to coal from gas. The government hopes by 2015 to have reduced demand for gas by 3bcm. The third stage is a major energy-efficiency drive. This is focusing on the large-scale failures within the national infrastructure. For instance, the pumping stations that move the gas around the Ukrainian network had a leakage rate of 37% in 2012.  

    A key part of the plan is to diversify supply by adding liquefied natural gas (LNG) to the supply mix. The first step is for Ukraine to rent a floating re-gasification station off the coast of Odessa. LNG tankers would dock at the station and, once transformed from liquid back to gas, it is pumped ashore. Ukraine has entered an agreement with Excelerate Energy to rent a re-gasification station for a reported $60 million per year. The station should be ready to receive 5bcm per year by 2014. This first stage would be followed by the construction of a fixed terminal, which should be in place around 2018. This would provide a further 5bcm of capacity.  

    These four steps – reverse-flow deals, the switch from gas to coal, greater energy efficiency, and LNG supplies – have the potential to transform Ukraine's energy security and perceptions of Ukrainian independence. It is ironic that Russian attempts to undermine Ukrainian independence by increasing the country's gas dependence could actually turn out to have had the opposite effect.  

    Alan Riley is a professor at City University in London.

    http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/2013/july/ukraine-getting-out-from-underneath-the-bear-/77944.aspx

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:03 am

    The West apparently doesn't get that Russia doesn't care as much about weakening Ukraine's "energy security" as having a stable, no third party involved route of selling energy to Europe.

    How that fact is beyond them I don't know.

    Yeah, no shit Russia doesn't want to pay the Ukraine for transit prices.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:52 am

    Typical western BS.

    If you had your electricity coming though your neighbours house to get to you and you found out that that neighbour had a few things plugged into your line that you paid for and as a result the electricity supplier had decided to install a few new power lines that bypassed your poor neighbour and went straight to your house would you jump up and down and complain about the electricity supplier trying to undermine the living conditions of your neighbour because he will no longer be able to pinch your power any more?

    It is ridiculous.

    The sooner that Russia finds a nice big market for its gas and can get lines up and running to supply them and become less reliant on Europe as a market the better... then Europe can become self sufficient all it wants... and freeze.


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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  Firebird on Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:10 pm

    One of the most warped phrases to have come out of the West in recent times is "energy security".

    It must rank alongside "insurgents" and "weapons of mass destruction" and "collateral damage" etc.
    ie as the forked tongue speak of American neo-Imperialism and bullying.

    "Energy security" basically suggests that certain countries have a "god given right" to Russian oil and gas. They suggest that the "market" has no place in this discussion, nor does Russia having a right to choose how, where and when it does business. If Russia gave up its nuclear/ powerful non-nuke detererrent, would America invade because high oil "harms national security". Very like, I believe. The mind boggles with these Extreme Right nutjobs that infest the Western media with their sinister language of intimidation.

    In other words, if America changes its interest rate, Russia doesn't talk about America using it as a way of "blackmail" or threatening security. Yet that is exactly how America insults Russia and oil producers.

    I think America and their EU lackeys are just crying that Russia is signing deals with Asia and other places. Ironically, if many EU countries were not ordered around by America, life would be a lot better for them. As for some of these Ukrainians (ie ones in the West of the country), it really is like talking to an idiot. The Ukraine can do great things, if it has the common sense to work with the Russian Federation. Instead of making idiotic claims like "the Russian Fedn stole the name Russia from us...""

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    Russia worried as Ukraine creeps closer to EU - Another sensitive article hope for your comments.

    Post  TheRealist on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:25 pm

    Russia worried as Ukraine creeps closer to EU
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Russia-worried-as-Ukraine-creeps-closer-to-EU/articleshow/21794659.cms

    KIEV: Ukraine is moving closer to finally agreeing a key first step towards joining the European Union, sparking concern from Russia that Kiev is decisively shifting away from the Kremlin, analysts said.

    There are mounting signs that Kiev will finally ink an Association Agreement with the European Union at a summit in November, in a historic first step for the ex-Soviet republic towards joining the bloc, analysts said.

    "The train is moving. There is a 90 percent probability that Ukraine will sign an Association Agreement with the European Union in November," said Oleg Ustenko, executive director of the Blazer International Fund in Kiev.

    A key obstacle on the Ukraine's path to the EU remains the imprisonment of the ex-prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who was sentenced in October 2011 to seven years in jail on abuse of power charges.

    But analysts said the probability of Kiev signing the much-delayed agreement increased after a crunch visit by Russian President Vladimir Putin to Ukraine in late July aimed at pressuring Kiev ended without result.

    No announcement was forthcoming about Ukraine's possible membership in the Customs Union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan which is seen as a plan by Putin to revive the links of the ex-USSR.

    In an apparent warning shot to Kiev, Moscow promptly banned imports of a popular Ukrainian chocolate brand.

    "Putin is becoming accustomed to the idea that Ukraine will sign an Association Agreement with the EU, and will not enter the Customs Union as a full member," said Vadym Karasev, head of the Ukrainian Institute of Global Strategies.

    'The elite favours EU integration'

    The Association Agreement between Kiev and the European Union would likely include a free trade deal which would bury forever any prospect of Ukraine joining Putin's Customs Union.

    Likewise, EU officials have stated clearly that a move by Kiev towards the Customs Union would contradict its ambition of joining the European Union.

    According to the head of the Centre for Political Studies "Penta", Volodymyr Fesenko, the Kremlin wants to provoke a debate in Ukraine as European integration is one thing the ruling Regions Party and main opposition agree on.

    During his visit to Kiev, Putin lavished a mere 15 minutes on a meeting with Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych but made a surprise appearance at a conference which was organised by pro-Kremlin Ukraine politician Viktor Medvedchuk.

    Medvedchuk, the head of administration under former president Leonid Kuchma, is seen by analysts as Moscow's favoured candidate for presidential elections in 2015.

    "Putin understood that in Ukraine there is no debate over a civilised choice: the absolute majority of the elite, except the Communists, lean in favour of European integration," Fesenko said.

    With political tensions in Ukraine running high, a hitherto obscure political think tank linked to Medvedchuk produced a study arguing that the Association Agreement was against Ukrainian law.

    However the suggestion was rubbished by the government. "Any objections that the agreement does not correspond to current law are without basis and senseless," said Justice Minister Olena Lukash.

    'A tool of economic pressure'

    The day after Putin's visit to Ukraine saw the announcement that Russia had banned the import of the popular Ukrainian Roshen chocolate brand owned by former minister Petro Poroshenko.

    Fesenko said that while there was not yet signs of a trade war brewing,the main motivation of this ban is political.

    "It is a tool of political and economic pressure on Ukraine. It is a demonstrative punishment, a demonstrative flogging of Ukrainian oligarchs who support European integration, a signal for the rest of the businessmen that the same thing could happen with them."

    Analysts said if Tymoshenko is sent abroad to treat her health problem -- an option mooted in talks between Ukraine and Germany -- it would directly open the way to sign the agreement with EU.

    "If this happens in the next two months then likely the agreement will be signed," said Fesenko.

    "If it does not happen, it will be a headache for EU politicians as not signing would represent the failure of its Eastern Partnership," he added.

    Tymoshenko has insisted her imprisonment was ordered by Yanukovych in a bid to eliminate a dangerous opponent from political life ahead of 2015 presidential polls.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:44 pm

    Only just read that article myself and now I find it posted here.

    It's worrying - Moldova is signing the association agreement at the same time as the Ukraine, in November. I imagine that Georgia won't be far behind, and some years later perhaps Armenia.

    But I wouldn't be alarmed. From what I gather - what the association agreement actually is - concretely, is simply a free trade agreement. That's pretty much all it actually entails.

    Which is nice but in this sense the EU is only playing catch-up to Russia because Russia already signed a free-trade agreement with the rest of the CIS; including the Ukraine and Moldova - back in 2011 or so. It was signed practically without any fanfare at all. Compare that to the hoo-haa over the AA. You'd think they were entering the EU tommorow. Of course in reality EU entry for a multitude of reasons (economic crisis, expansion fatigue, low public support, poor institutions & rule of law in these countries, etc...) is still at least a decade away for them.

    The AA is supposed to open the way for EU-membership, as well as visa-free travel and some other things; but 'opening the way' is a very vague term that the EU bureaucrats like to use. Russia already has visa-free travel with these countries pretty much, and the way is already open for full Eurasian economic union membership. It doesn't mean much in reality. Neither does the AA as it stands now.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  TheRealist on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:13 pm

    For me it is purely economics, however I view the "Eastern Partnership" as a potential program to threaten Russian interests in the few remaining buffer zones it still has. Potentially the elites of former Soviet Republics and a number of special interest groups in the West may use the AA as a means of pushing out Russian interest and isolate it from its traditional sphere. The Associate Agreement might be use to pressure Ukraine in denouncing the Kharkiv agreement and could be use to pressure Armenia is removing the 102nd military base in Gyumri.

    However the Ukrainians have a economic interest in both maintaining EU and CU relations. If I am not wrong Ukrainian pipes are being sold to Russia, and I think Ukraine is interested in maintaining the military technical cooperation with Russia.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:46 pm

    TheRealist wrote:For me it is purely economics, however I view the "Eastern Partnership" as a potential program to threaten Russian interests in the few remaining buffer zones it still has. Potentially the elites of former Soviet Republics and a number of special interest groups in the West may use the AA as a means of pushing out Russian interest and isolate it from its traditional sphere. The Associate Agreement might be use to pressure Ukraine in denouncing the Kharkiv agreement and could be use to pressure Armenia is removing the 102nd military base in Gyumri.

    However the Ukrainians have a economic interest in both maintaining EU and CU relations. If I am not wrong Ukrainian pipes are being sold to Russia, and I think Ukraine is interested in maintaining the military technical cooperation with Russia.
    Like I said - the AA doesn't actually entail much at all.

    I don't even know why in this article it's pointed to as something that can preclude Customs Union membership of the Ukraine. EU membership would be able to - it's contradictory in many respects.
    But the Association Agreement? It won't preclude the Ukraine entering into a goods Customs Union with Russia/Belarus/Kazakhstan any more than the Free Trade Agreement Russia signed with the Ukraine 2 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CISFTA) would preclude the Ukraine from entering the EU.

    Basically - other than the FTA - the AA is mostly just hot air. It contains a lot of future promises, road-maps and guidelines.
    Europe and America were unable to offer any real integration for a decade or so, so they came up with this document and told countries to sign it if they're interested in what might come 10 years down the line. Between now and then though, much can happen - and Russia's own economic integration projects are progressing a lot faster.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:40 am

    Does that guy own shares in that chocolate making company?


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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:12 am

    GarryB wrote:Does that guy own shares in that chocolate making company?
    Nationalist anti-Russian Ukrainians are up in arms about it right now; there are many articles up right now all pointing at how its evidence of Russia's arm-twisting, 'punishment', imperialism and so on; and of course about how the Ukraine has no alternative but to enter the EU

    They left out the other side of the story though:

    http://www.confectionerynews.com/Markets/Russia-imposes-import-sanctions-on-Ukrainian-chocolate

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:51 pm

    That is really funny... if Russia does it then it is evil big state using force against smaller victim countries... how undemocratic.

    But of course the US uses such strong arm tactics all the time... it is how coca cola got its position... once they buy up most of the local drink companies they go into the shops that sell their sugar fluids and demand those shops don't sell anything but their sugar water... otherwise they wont sell them anything.
    In the case of the US government they are always imposing sanctions or freezing the assets of one country or person... but then it is OK... they are exercising their democratic right to not support one democratically elected leader or another.


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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:29 pm

    apparently Ukraine is the Customs Union partnership program or whatever, now the EU. Really though, Ukraine will be more of a blight to EU than something positive, as Ukraine needs a lot of modernization, and the country is so heavily corrupt, that EU will have a difficult time moving money to the right areas.

    I think the government of Ukraine sees the EU as some sort of easy cash cow (rightly so with the whole Greece issue), and thinks they will get a lot of moola over this. Ukraine is one of those post soviet countries that has continuously failed economically over the years. While Russia's wealth has been growing significantly, and they are building new industries in various sectors of the country, Ukraine is dropping pretty fast and GDP per capita is worst than China.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:38 pm

    sepheronx wrote:apparently Ukraine is the Customs Union partnership program or whatever, now the EU.  Really though, Ukraine will be more of a blight to EU than something positive, as Ukraine needs a lot of modernization, and the country is so heavily corrupt, that EU will have a difficult time moving money to the right areas.

    I think the government of Ukraine sees the EU as some sort of easy cash cow (rightly so with the whole Greece issue), and thinks they will get a lot of moola over this.  Ukraine is one of those post soviet countries that has continuously failed economically over the years.  While Russia's wealth has been growing significantly, and they are building new industries in various sectors of the country, Ukraine is dropping pretty fast and GDP per capita is worst than China.
    The Ukraine's GDP has been declining since the beggining of 2012. Literally - despite the low base and easy growth potential - the GDP continues to decline. Basically they are about 10 years behind Russia in terms of economical development, GDP growth, per-capita wealth, government stability, effectiveness of government programs, etc...
    Where they are now is where Russia was in 2002-2003.

    And where Russia was in 2002-2003 was just at the beggining of a long load of recovery from a 1 1/2 decade long economic meltdown. The Ukraine has had 2 1/2 decades of economic meltdown.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:02 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:apparently Ukraine is the Customs Union partnership program or whatever, now the EU.  Really though, Ukraine will be more of a blight to EU than something positive, as Ukraine needs a lot of modernization, and the country is so heavily corrupt, that EU will have a difficult time moving money to the right areas.

    I think the government of Ukraine sees the EU as some sort of easy cash cow (rightly so with the whole Greece issue), and thinks they will get a lot of moola over this.  Ukraine is one of those post soviet countries that has continuously failed economically over the years.  While Russia's wealth has been growing significantly, and they are building new industries in various sectors of the country, Ukraine is dropping pretty fast and GDP per capita is worst than China.
    The Ukraine's GDP has been declining since the beggining of 2012. Literally - despite the low base and easy growth potential - the GDP continues to decline. Basically they are about 10 years behind Russia in terms of economical development, GDP growth, per-capita wealth, government stability, effectiveness of government programs, etc...
    Where they are now is where Russia was in 2002-2003.

    And where Russia was in 2002-2003 was just at the beggining of a long load of recovery from a 1 1/2 decade long economic meltdown. The Ukraine has had 2 1/2 decades of economic meltdown.
    Ukraine was at a much better position than Russia, yet everything has been for nothing. Here are my examples to their upper position:

    1) their western Ukrainian anti-Russian movement is a good source for finding outside investments. It is no secret that western countries would be interested to help Ukraine in their effort to suppress the "evil Russians", so that would mean economically and militarily
    2) Ukraine did not have other nations to look after as well. Russia has Armenia as an example (as well as others), with Chechnya, Daegestand and Ingushetia being money black holes.
    3) Ukraine did not fight a war since the collapse of the Soviet Union. So no money would have been wasted, nor deaths.
    4) Less people in their country, and less spread out, meaning that it would be easier to provide utilities/resources to these communities. As well, Ukraine is pretty Homogeneous, so there are not millions of ethnic groups from all around seeking to find criminal ways of activity to make easy money.

    There is plenty of other reasons, but Ukraine really squandered a lot of their talent and potential away. And the more Ukraine plays hard to get for Russia, the more Russia is finding alternatives - Antonov lost out on the An-140 deal and now Ilyushin is getting the contract for light transport plane. Or finding ways around Ukraine for energy pipelines, moving production of engines for Helicopters, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles to Russia, using domestic avionic systems rather than ones from Ukraine, etc etc.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:29 pm

    I feel that Russia is now becoming more independent in developing an independent MIC and not rely that much on ex-Soviet Republics for military technical cooperation.
    I have heard that Klimov is building a new plant or R&D center for engines.
    I read that Russia is localizing the production of missile engines and boosting that production as well.
    The other day I was concerned that engine supply for Russian warships from Ukraine might be affected but from this article that I just stumbled upon it would seem that Russia is establishing a new factory for maritime engine in the form of a JV with Wartsila, http://www.wartsila.com/en/press-releases/construction-of-new-engine-production-facilities-for-wartsilas-joint-venture-company-in-russia-to-start.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  TR1 on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:11 pm

    Dagestan is no more a black hole than Moscow is, in terms of money dissapearing.

    Actually, probably far less.

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    Re: Ukraine-Russia Relations and Future developments

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:56 pm

    Dagestan and Stavropol territory are neck and neck in terms of attracting investment and economic growth in the North Caucasus district as of last year. Chechnya is a good deal further behind but catching up; it's developing rapidly.

    The black holes there are Ingushetia (!!!!!!!), Karachay-Cherkessia and to an extent Kabardino-Balkaria too.

    At least these republics are very small though, that's what saves them from being true black holes.
    None of them match the massive Far Eastern territories in terms of the money that's sunk in compared to what's received for the budget in return; the amount the government sinks into each citizen in Kamchatka, Chukotka, Magadan, Kuril Islands, etc... is signficiantly more than the money spent on an average citizen in the North Caucasus.

    Of course 'Stop feeding the Caucasus!' has much more a ring to it than 'Stop feeding Chukotka!' for Russia's nationalist movement, so there we go.

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