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    Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

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    Dima
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Dima on Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:49 pm

    This is funny  Laughing


    Beware The Tiger ‏@Souria4Syrians 3h3 hours ago
    Erdogan is calling Putin from different numbers now

    https://twitter.com/Souria4Syrians

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:01 pm

    Mustafa wrote:Its not trolling. I state my opinion and i will voice it once.

    I dont care what goes on in syria. It has no effect on my life or that of my people. I only care for the safety of turkmens in northern syria. Russia itself supports terrorism when it suits it. Its called diplomacy. Nations have no friends, just interests.

    When?


    If anyone here is so moronic to believe that there is some humanity in foreign relations, he must be completly retarded. Blame the game, not the player.

    You are saying you care about Turkmen, then there is no humanity? Tell me which one you want?

    Turkey warned France about the Paris attacks, France didn´t listen to intel information, so its their fault.

    Turkey didn't warn France. They actually deported two of the attackers, which in return had not done anything wrong up to that point. If anything Turket allowed for that Jihadi to come home faster. Also the fake Syrian passports were bought in Turkey from stolen stocks of documents.

    Basic fact now is that ISIS fights Assad and Kurds. Both effects are in our interest. Meanwhile they pose no threat for turkey right now.

    They support Turkish interests, and are terrorists. So there we are you support terrorists. The Kurds going to love the new toys.

    Some here should read Machiavelli. Thats the ideology that powers diplomacy.

    Ahahaha, well you should read it too sometimes. Especially the recommndations regarding the use of underhand policy.

    The current situation is a win situation for us. Syria is destroyed and the chaos forces EU to make us concessions.

    The problem with that is that it can be reversed pretty quick. We can send back everyone if need be. Great powers can also switch alliances and make sure Turkey doensn't win either. Like Russia did in Iraq. Opposed to the ennemies of Saddam Hussein, now best buddies with them. And that's something that can go very wrong.

    And before someone here screams islamist again. I don´t believe in god. I´m a nationalist and kemalist. I see such groups as tool you use to get what you want and drop when they did what they were needed for.

    YOu don't need to be an Islamist to be a terrorist supporter, hence the case here.

    They start to become a liability now so its very posible our position might change and we crush them and present ourself as the knight.

    You crush them, there's half your lines that collapse.

    its important to keep all options open Smile

    The war against ISIS will take many years and to stabilize the situation in syria will take even longer. Best option for our nation is to keep both sides happy and profit from it as long as possible.

    It will not even last until 2017 if a deal is reached over Syria. It can be any deal that allows Iran and Russia to hold Western Syria and the Coast. Given how the next US president is likely to be a republican, Turkey should finish off Russian strategy by Novemeber 2016, otherwise things might get scary. Just imagine Donald Trump opening the check book against Turkish backed forces in Syria. Because that's how it has become. Turkey is blocking the whole axis, because it doesn't like it. So far Obama likes it, because that helps him with Putin. The problem is that the next president and congres is going to review the Iran deal, this means that it would have to offer something to Russia to let Iran drop once more. Basically there can't be any deal in Ukraine. There can't be any deal about Iraq without a deal vs Syria. So there you have it. Clearing Syria while getting back on Iran is exactly whet is going to happen. The Americans will drop the Syrian op as fast as they say hello.

    If you think i shed a tear because those ISIS idiots kill some yezidi kurds then i can tell you thats not a big topic when meeting with friends at starbucks or the apple store. A far more important topic is when will Microsoft launch ist Surface Pro 4 and when will i get it. I preordered but the delivery takes so long.

    The big deal is that the kurds care, and "if you have read Machiavelli", there's always people who are interested in helping the prince with a vengeance.

    Neutrality
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Neutrality on Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:01 pm

    Mustafa wrote:

    Whats your problem with reality?

    Name me a reason why we should not support something that suits our interests? As you noticed just today is a large meeting with all 28 EU member states and turkey where they discuss gifts for our nation, so we keep the refugees at bay. You know what that means? In the end i can travel without any visa for a weekend to milano, paris oder berlin. Its a great opportunity for us and a great chance. They need us. We give them something and they take.

    Its that easy.

    You can hate reality as much as you want. It won´t change. That russia starts bombing in syria makes it even better, because it creates even more chaos and havoc there. I care for our well being. Thats the only thing that matters.


    Because you openly support ISIS. A group that has killed thousands of innocent people. You don't get to play the "suits our interests" card here. You are just a regular citizen of a country. You aren't a politician nor are you part of the elite. You're lowlife scum who pretends he knows reality and there's nothing else to it.

    After all those things that you said I'll be personally seeing to it that you receive a nice IP ban.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:01 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    The General staff Greece: Turkey has reduced violations of air borders of the country
    lol! lol! lol!
    http://ria.ru/world/20151129/1331280618.html

    It would be hard for them to violate the Greek airspace if the Turkish airforce has been grounded by the Russians.

    c´mon you are making life of Turkish intel full time employees on this forum miserable welcome lol! lol! lol!

    Did "CIA" eliminate their other Turkish propaganda officer they had sent here, not Mustafa, the other one. His/her familiarity with English was atrocious; probably he/she had gotten the job via nepotism.

    lol!

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Dima on Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:16 pm

    Mustafa wrote:Russia itself supports terrorism when it suits it. Its called diplomacy. Nations have no friends, just interests.
    Where?

    Basic fact now is that ISIS fights Assad and Kurds. Both effects are in our interest. Meanwhile they pose no threat for turkey right now.
    Exact case for Israel also!
    And some people think Israel is a victim.

    The current situation is a win situation for us. Syria is destroyed and the chaos forces EU to make us concessions.
    Syria is not yet destroyed to the level that Turks can take over as you would have liked to see. It is damaged, but salvageable and that is the process going on. After this counter-terrorists ops are finished successfully, restoration work will start.

    And before someone here screams islamist again. I don´t believe in god. I´m a nationalist and kemalist.
    That is no guarantee for not being a ill-informed and biased Idiot!

    The war against ISIS will take many years and to stabilize the situation in syria will take even longer. Best option for our nation is to keep both sides happy and profit from it as long as possible.
    War against ISIS wil not take many years, but mopping up ops in low intensity war might take little longer due to the eventual creation of smaller terrorists enclaves.

    ISIS is the B team aka the numerically superior expendable team of the US/Saudi/Turkey & co team.
    Where as the FSA terrorist represents the A team and its for this matter the Rusii alliance (Russia-Syria-Iran-Iraq) need to and will concentrate on eliminating the core of the terrorists movement.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:07 pm

    Mustafa wrote:They are not ISIS militants but locals we work with. ISIS is not active at our boarder. And even if it would be ISIS, so what? ISIS fights against Assad and thats all that matters right now.

    Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

    So spreading ISIS ideology and acting as terrorist apologist is OK on this forum now?

    Notice to mods: if this little shit-sucking asslover is allowed to resume with this bullshit I will start spamming this tread (and several others) with explicit media content of all types since it sems anything goes...

    Just a polite warning.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:49 pm

    Siempre_Leal wrote:Body of Russian pilot in Turkey, preparing handover to Russia: Turkish PM

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/29/us-mideast-crisis-turkey-russia-pilot-idUSKBN0TI07T20151129?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter


    Turks are really idiots. To get back the body of that Jordanian pilot the King had to pay etc. Here the body is transited seamlessly. If they want to convince anyone that the groups in Syria are under their direct orders, they should at least have done this in more difficult way.

    The shameless posturing here is probably more difficult to swallow than the plane being shot. I only hope, the planning for future incidents is underway and the Turkish planes get dropped deep in PKK territory. In Iraq.

    ult
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  ult on Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:56 pm

    Neutrality wrote:Seriously, where is the report button?

    There is none. And the mods are useless. I'm seriously disappointed with the forum right now. No reason to post news, pics or anything here if it's just gonna be lost among turkish shitposters.

    sepheronx
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:01 pm

    I made a thread to the admins about this thread and the pro isis comment.  If someone can provide me with the link to his post where it is, I will submit it to them.


    @ ult, etc.
    Admins/mods are not on our time scale and are volunteers/people too (I used to be a mod here till I had disagreements with Vladimir, but I grew up and realised he has every right to his opinions as well). GarryB being from New Zealand and George1 being from Greece is good indication that they are on a very different time frame. As well, have other duties.  These are the only two mods that seem to be active.  Milky, I have not seen her post in years (wonder what she is up to?) And Vlad also seems to be a busy man.

    I think there needs to be a new moderater as well to assist the other two.  My vote would go to eithor Victor or Flaming Python as both guys are level headed.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Neutrality on Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:25 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I made a thread to the admins about this thread and the pro isis comment.  If someone can provide me with the link to his post where it is, I will submit it to them.


    @ ult, etc.
    Admins/mods are not on our time scale and are volunteers/people too (I used to be a mod here till I had disagreements with Vladimir, but I grew up and realised he has every right to his opinions as well). GarryB being from New Zealand and George1 being from Greece is good indication that they are on a very different time frame. As well, have other duties.  These are the only two mods that seem to be active.  Milky, I have not seen her post in years (wonder what she is up to?) And Vlad also seems to be a busy man.

    I think there needs to be a new moderater as well to assist the other two.  My vote would go to eithor Victor or Flaming Python as both guys are level headed.

    Post #202. It's on the previous page.

    mack8
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  mack8 on Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:29 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I made a thread to the admins about this thread and the pro isis comment.  If someone can provide me with the link to his post where it is, I will submit it to them.


    @ ult, etc.
    Admins/mods are not on our time scale and are volunteers/people too (I used to be a mod here till I had disagreements with Vladimir, but I grew up and realised he has every right to his opinions as well). GarryB being from New Zealand and George1 being from Greece is good indication that they are on a very different time frame. As well, have other duties.  These are the only two mods that seem to be active.  Milky, I have not seen her post in years (wonder what she is up to?) And Vlad also seems to be a busy man.

    I think there needs to be a new moderater as well to assist the other two.  My vote would go to eithor Victor or Flaming Python as both guys are level headed.

    I did put forward the same thing to Garry in a recent PM (also regarding things happening in this topic), the forum would use a few more mods to spread the workload.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Militarov on Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:30 pm







    Pilot's body has been brought to Turkey yesterday evening and ceremonied by Antioch Orthodox church. Pilot is now being transfered by Turkish military cargo plane to Ankara, where its to be hand over to Russia military authorities.

    ult
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  ult on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:01 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I made a thread to the admins about this thread and the pro isis comment.  If someone can provide me with the link to his post where it is, I will submit it to them.


    @ ult, etc.
    Admins/mods are not on our time scale and are volunteers/people too (I used to be a mod here till I had disagreements with Vladimir, but I grew up and realised he has every right to his opinions as well). GarryB being from New Zealand and George1 being from Greece is good indication that they are on a very different time frame. As well, have other duties.  These are the only two mods that seem to be active.  Milky, I have not seen her post in years (wonder what she is up to?) And Vlad also seems to be a busy man.

    I think there needs to be a new moderater as well to assist the other two.  My vote would go to eithor Victor or Flaming Python as both guys are level headed.

    I wrote PM to GarryB about Oguzhanoz and another guy calling dead Russian pilot idiot, and also about their other posts. He said that they're acting stupid, but so are everyone else in that thread so it's fine.

    What can I say, that's obviously the forum's "party's line".

    So much for Russia Defence forum. I could have been wasting my time on themess with the same result.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  assslan on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:21 pm

    Hi... I just read some comment about ISIL, Syria and Turkey. But nobody speak about Esad.
    I wonder that What do you think about Putin & Esad relationship?
    We (Turks), Europe, USA are sure that Esad is a murderer. But Putin protect Esad. We can see Russia & Syria are ally but we wonder that are Russians support Esad? Do you support Putin's action about Syria ?

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Militarov on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:26 pm

    assslan wrote:Hi... I just read some comment about ISIL, Syria and Turkey. But nobody speak about Esad.
    I wonder that What do you think about Putin & Esad relationship?  
    We (Turks), Europe, USA are sure that Esad is a murderer. But Putin protect Esad. We can see Russia & Syria are ally but we wonder that are Russians support Esad? Do you support Putin's action about Syria ?

    "We (Turks), Europe, USA are sure that Esad is a murderer." - Actually majority of the population in both US and Europe does not agree with their gov view of Syria situation, so its kinda only you Turks.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  ult on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:29 pm

    We, Russians, think that erdogan is a crazy dictator, so we'll start arming freedom fighters and kurds to overthrow him. If millions of turks will die in the process, well, tough luck, but we need to support democracy after all.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:31 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    "We (Turks), Europe, USA are sure that Esad is a murderer." - Actually majority of the population in both US and Europe does not agree with their gov view of Syria situation, so its kinda only you Turks.

    Yup. The other thing is that the medias in the "civilized world" are rigged and manipulated and under hard control of pushing the western agenda. Those who differ are enemies and treated as such. That is proven today in every western country and the vassal state Turkey is jailing journalists who have reported and shown links of Turkey with ISIS and other terrorist groups. That is beyond denial you are the murderers and terrorists. Asad did not kill civilians most civilians are in SAA controlled regions not in Turkmen,ISIS, FSA and all the other scum supported, armed and financed by US, Turkey, Israel, UK, Saudis, Kuwait, Qatar and what other terrorist regimes there are.

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Pirey on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:32 pm

    assslan wrote:Hi... I just read some comment about ISIL, Syria and Turkey. But nobody speak about Esad.
    I wonder that What do you think about Putin & Esad relationship?  
    We (Turks), Europe, USA are sure that Esad is a murderer. But Putin protect Esad. We can see Russia & Syria are ally but we wonder that are Russians support Esad? Do you support Putin's action about Syria ?

    Allright. And we(Europe),USA think that Erdogan is dictator. He must go.
    Does that give us right to bomb you?


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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Militarov on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:36 pm









    Friends and relatives of Putin getting discount in Turkish shops Very Happy

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  assslan on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:38 pm

    ult wrote:We, Russians, think that erdogan is a crazy dictator, so we'll start arming freedom fighters and kurds to overthrow him. If millions of turks will die in the process, well, tough luck, but we need to support democracy after all.
    Ok I understand your idea about Erdoğan and Turks. I read so much comment about killing Turks.
    I wonder that What do you think about Putin & Esad relationship?

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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:46 pm


    Our nations must coordinate better so this doesn´t happen again. I´m sure we can find a solution. I realize emotions cook a little bit high now in russia.

    Coordination only works when both parties are working for the same goal.

    Russia wants to kill terrorists in Syria and restore order so proper free elections can be held.

    Turkey clearly just wants the current Assad regime out and their own stooges put into power.

    They might sound similar but they are not.

    The actions of Putin show pretty clearly that Russian forces will protect themselves from Turkish interference in the air using ground and sea based long range SAMs and also fighter escorts. Turkey wont get a second chance at shooting down Russian aircraft and I rather suspect columns of supplies and oil going into turkey and out of turkey into syria will now get all the attention they deserve.

    Mustafa seems like a decent guy who wants good relations between Russia and Turkey. Do not dis him too much.

    But Turkey must pay for what it did, that is for certain.

    I agree with the first part, but the second part could be solved with an apology. What makes it an issue is that they don't realise they have anything to apologise about. Perhaps their next airspace violation of Greek airspace could end in an aircraft being shot down and they might understand... what appears to be an aggressive act by someone you though was an ally if not a friend.

    And sadly, the only beneficiary will AGAIN be the United States of A. Turkey will lose. Russia will lose. The USA will win.

    Russian increasing its military presence in Syria is no win for the US.

    Just like with Ukraine. Russia lost. Ukraine lost. The EU lost. USA won.

    Russia lost a whining bitch of a retarded half brother that was always going to need care and support... now the burden is on the EU... Again the US has won nothing... the Ukraine will now expect America to bail them out... obviously they wont, and when they refuse the people of the Ukraine will realise the west is no better than any other empire.


    This is horseshit. With all due respect FP, wanting revenge without killing is absurd, especially when they have murdered (nope this isn't an accident) your guys. If you want justice, then no problem, set up a comission, look where it went wrong and no problem. But that's not what is happening. It's nothing to do with bad commo, mishap. It was a direct order to shoot a plane that would have been out of TR airspace at impact. They knew that much. That's why you're not having condolences passed. Because deep down, THIS. IS. AN. ACT. OF. WAR.

    Odds are they did this precisely because Russian bombing attacks on their proxies have probably killed a lot of their polite people and likely also destroyed an enormous amount of weapons and food and equipment over the last few weeks. They are clearly hurting.

    SO?

    and Hitler was democratically legally elected too..
    That means nothing.. Criminal leaders at times manage to get in power through
    deception and lies..and controlling its media and terrorizing and killing the political opposition.

    I suspect the point is that he was not an unpopular leader with little or no support of the majority at the end of his term in office. He has just been re-elected and has a mandate to lead.


    2. apologies don´t make anything better at all.

    No they don't fix anything... but they do show your view of the situation.
    But if Putin puts a travel ban on Turkey that seriously effects your economy you will understand it if we don't apologise for the effect on you personally because we can't control Putin.

    An apology does not fix anything... but it is not supposed to... it is supposed to show sympathy for someone else... if you want things to not change then you need to show some sympathy for what happened... otherwise the perception is that you support what happened... and if you do support what happened then there is less room for cooperation than previously thought.

    I am disappointed personally as I thought there was a lot of scope for cooperation and mutual trade between turkey and russia... clearly not enough for a simple apology.

    I am sure your pride will be enough to keep you going.

    I cannot foresee Russia letting this one go until Erdogan is removed from power.

    I am sure Putin will take no steps towards regime change in Turkey but I doubt he will have any interests in dealing with Erdogan now...

    Yeah, no kidding. And I agree with you; it was a murderous ambush. But you're telling me the Russian government and military should've trusted the Turks (or just about anyone)? Sorry, sir, but I disagree on that one.

    they had no reason not to trust the turks... do you think that explains why Putin called the shootdown a stab in the back?

    Why join this forum now? To cheer for terrorist action and your worthless life who supports terrorism by that you are by definition a terrorist yourself because terrorism comes from Terror, spreading fear by verbal and mostly physical progroms and since you come here only for one reason on a specific russian forum not some kurd forum not some syrian forum but a russian forum your intentions are very clear. He is right a bullet to the head to all terrorists.

    To be honest I think it is good for this forum to hear an opinion from the other side... you know... something western media never bothers with... the other side.

    You don't have to agree with him or like what he says but it is important to hear a different perspective.

    Never said anything about being paid troll, he is disgusting subhuman that joined the forum to cheer on that for no other reason so spare me this nonsense. He violates forum rules of not trolling, coming here for only one reason to troll is forum rule breakage even when he is not doing it in such disgusting manner like pakistannavy did.

    Hahahaha... interesting conspiracy theory... they had F-16s for the shootdown plus F-15s nearby in case something went wrong, plus they had forces on the ground to interfere with the rescue operation and capture any ejecting aircrew... AND they have sent an agent to russiadefence.net... damn they are thorough with their planning.  Smile

    Sorry, but i dont agree. The Turks, NATO have just killed 3 ppl part of the Russian military brotherhood. I would think that certain ranking personal want blood and not make this look as if the Turks or NATO can get away with killing Russian service personal without taking losses themselves. I see Turkeys action similar to that of a person in a gang. Cocky believing and thinking that the other person is an idiot who would simply lie down let it take it.

    Think of it as a proxy war... the turks support a faction in Syria that is not Assad and who is Russia bombing? The side the Turks support. I would wager any amount of money to say that the Turkish special forces have already lost rather more than two or three soldiers... significantly more... and over the next few weeks they will continue to lose more and more until they come to their senses and realise a coalition of Syrian forces against ISIS should be the first priority... a civil war... basicaly violence from the muzzle of a gun is no way to create a new stable society.. get rid of ISIS and then a peaceful interim government until proper elections are held is the only realistic solution... all other solutions result in a war that Assad with Russias support wont lose and will result in suffering and failure.

    The Russians cannot guarantee an Assad win but they can assure there is no win for his opponents either.

    Wont be much use unless they can convince Turkey to fly across the border into Syria.

    Lines of a political border don't show up on radar... if they want they can claim the target was in Syrian air space and they felt threatened... I doubt they would need to however because while Turkey seems to hold its own borders as sacred it clearly has no respect for the borders of its immediate neighbours.


    That means, a EU jointed naval forces with no NATO elements is going to be the reality.

    What do I think about this?

    the author is seriously misinformed... the EU will never kick Turkey out... Turkey has never been a member of the EU.

    NATO wont kick Turkey out of NATO for killing Russian soldiers... ever... that is what NATO was created for.

    What if Assad sends an airplane to do a poison gas attack on some boarder city? What then? We all sit down and say: my bad?

    That would be a neat trick considering Syria has already gotten rid of its chemical weapons and the only side verified to have used poison gas was the rebels in that conflict.


    Assad and his family clan have no future in syria.

    So the position of president in turkey is sacred and you wont speak against him but the Syrian leader is fair game?  Very flexible values you have there...

    So tell me a solution in this that turkey can accept? You know the red line and you know that reality is that assad wont be accepted by anyone here.

    Might come as a shock but you were supposed to be part of a team... when you shot down that Su-24 and then supported the terrorists who murdered the pilot and then attacked the rescue unit you separated yourself from that team... you don't get a say in how Russia pursues this conflict now.

    I am sure they will take extra special care to respect your air space now... and they will also take extra care to bomb the shit out of anything transported over that border in either direction.

    You wont get any say in the future of Syria... you are off the team. Your choice.

    This is like the mp.net Ukraine thread at its worst and that brought down draconian Mod action. I hope that will happen tonight when Gary gets on.

    Actually I think a bit of venting can be healthy and certainly venting on here rather than polluting other threads seems to me to be the best of a bad situation...

    The question is that the Russian government has its priorities upside down.

    Paying tributes to the Chechens, and at the same time, trying to take on the Turks?

    I would cease the tributary payments first.

    Your example does not provide evidence of that... If poland wants funding support they clearly need to ask a few years in advance... for all we know they might have been waiting for that fountain for 20 years and have only finally got the thing built... the fact that a request from Poland wasn't immediately granted means their fund for supporting monuments is currently depleted.

    Besides providing funding for Chechnia... a part of Russia can't really be compared with denying funds to Poland for a memorial they might decide at their next election to pull down or relocate... and Poland is still part of the EU... an organisation that has Russia under sanctions... why gift them funds at all?

    harassing turkish business men is not a good way to deescalate. they did nothing wrong.

    Why should Russia de-escalate? Turkey does not feel it has done anything wrong... why should Russia offer concessions?

    Turkish businessmen breaking visa entry rules... I would think after the attacks in France that such border controls are much more serious and strictly adhered to with real justification... especially when Erdogan makes claims about being the leader of Chechen islamists... every visitor with a turkish passport would need a lot of extra scrutiny now... and any Russians going to turkey...

    Thug Life afro

    Ma Nigga Erod?an angry

    That's the advantage of NATO cahoot. All petty war criminals get together and form a coalition which scares Russian Bear too. ( Sad Truth )

    And exactly what steps would he take... if he justifies shooting down a Russian jet supposedly in Turkish air space how can he justify turkish jets violating Syrian airspace?
    The simple fact is he can't.
    His steps at a turkish plane geting shot down in Syrian air space will likely be to ban turkish aircraft in syrian air space... which will be a good thing.


    3) What is the official version on the number of missiles fired? (at least AIM-9x seems consistent with trail analysis, Russian MoD statement, and the fact that the engine was hit, instead of a random hit on the fuselage if it the missile would have had a radar seeker)

    Modern IR guided missiles don't hit tailpipes any more.


    1. We don't know, the fact it hit the engine indicates IR, but doesn't mean much.

    No. Just indicates the missile was fired from behind.

    Let me answer this. The trucks attacked were most likely from a syrian corporation with syrian drivers. They deliver concrete, food and other daily supply from turkey to syria. They don´t use turkish truck drivers in most cases, because turkish truck drivers are organized in unions and they don´t allow them to go in civil war areas.

    Working in terrorist held areas makes them a fair target. The fact that they transport oil to support terror groups makes them a priority target.

    When hunting alligators step one... drain the swamp.

    Now Nato radars are collecting data about Russia 7/24,anytime they turn on their radar,or any time they lock to planes.

    Not really that important... new systems are upgraded all the time... the best place for a real test is against a NATO country, and thanks to Turkey any Turkish planes in Syrian air space are fair game.

    I´m a patriot. I stand for my nation 100%. Erdogan has his mistakes as any human being. But he is my president and as this i will never stand against him.

    So if he decides that he should start taking meth and under the influence of meth thinks that gay love becomes manditory for all men and that all non white people should be treated as second class citizens with reduced rights... you would be OK with that because he is your president?

    I believed russians understand this. They too have a president who ruined their country, is openly homosexual and a corrupt thug. Yet they respect his office.

    If you mean Putin then you are confusing reality with the claims of his political enemies. Even Erdogans friends are distancing themselves from his current actions...

    concrete and food causes no harm and danger to anyone. Or do you fear they throw tomatoes on you?

    Tell that to the Palestinians...

    Giving aide to terrorists is supporting terrorists.

    Oil goes out and concrete and food and weapons go in... all valid military targets.

    We should not forget that russia suffered two plane crashs and the one in sinai was far worse for Putin than the downed fighter jet.

    Two planes and a helicopter destroyed and they still haven't run away...

    "The map which was published by the Russians can't be accurate scientifically speaking, says Van Doorsselaere. It's claimed that the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit by the missile. That's nonsense. It had to be a very heavy rocket because the momentum of an existing rocket and the explosion is many times smaller than the momentum of the jet. And that can only cause a small alteration in the flypath at the time of the collision.

    Yeah.. that is what you get when you are a mathematician instead of an aviation crash specialist... the way a plane behaves after being hit by a missile depends on which control surfaces are damaged and which still work and which don't.

    A plane can yaw and roll in practically any direction after parts are seriously damaged by explosion and it is nothing to do with the explosive force of the missiles warhead.

    7,5 fucking seconds. Erdogan fucked up big time so I hope the first F-16 which hasn't reached Syrian air space just yet but is only approaching it, will get shot down. And more should follow if the Turks keep playing with fire.

    Of course made rather worse by claimed Erdogan gave the order himself.... so presumably he would be contacted as the plane entered turkish airspace... and he must have made that decision very quickly...

    By knowing the altitude of the hit you can estimate time to hit ground in free fall. From that and distance b/w missile hit and ground impact you can calculate ground velocity. From ground velocity you then calculate the duration of "violation". This is grade 10 physics.

    Not sure what grade 10 physics is but if it is very basic then I agree... the physics of aerodynamics is very very complicated and becomes rather more so when components of the tail and wings of an aircraft are bludgeoned with the warhead of a missile.

    Flight speed and glide range can of course be estimated but when the variables can include anything from sudden 90 degree pitch down and vertical dive through to stable flight with one or two engines still running after the two crew eject and the plane flying level and stable till it runs out of fuel and everything in between.

    I rather suspect they just took the ground impact point and extrapolated it back to the missile impact point and altitude and an assumed initial speed.

    It would however explain why Russian pilot did not hear "warnings" if they existed that is. But truly it seems not all SU24s have UHF recievers.

    Makes you wonder why they wont release the tapes of all these requests to change course... perhaps because they are like santa claus and the tooth fairy and don't exist?

    Its simply prove. It says turkish citizens are not safe in russia. It also says it can be that if you have accident or felt ill, that russian doctors will just leave you ad not help.

    If turkish holiday makers and businessmen leave Russia that will make the inevitable backlash of Russians leaving turkey much easier and much more likely... so go ahead... pretend Russian doctors will murder any turks they get their hands on.


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    ult
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  ult on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:48 pm

    assslan wrote:
    Ok I understand your idea about Erdoğan and Turks. I read so much comment about killing Turks.
    I wonder that What do you think about Putin & Esad relationship?

    Who is Esad?

    George1
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  George1 on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:49 pm

    ult wrote:
    assslan wrote:
    Ok I understand your idea about Erdoğan and Turks. I read so much comment about killing Turks.
    I wonder that What do you think about Putin & Esad relationship?

    Who is Esad?

    He probably means "Assad" Very Happy


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    Militarov
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  Militarov on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:50 pm

    ult wrote:
    assslan wrote:
    Ok I understand your idea about Erdoğan and Turks. I read so much comment about killing Turks.
    I wonder that What do you think about Putin & Esad relationship?

    Who is Esad?

    Beşşar Esad, thats Assad in Turkish.

    ult
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    Re: Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

    Post  ult on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:52 pm

    I figured, guys. I wanted him to say that...

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