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    Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

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    Post  Dima on Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:55 pm

    Mustafa wrote:Wedont want war and there will be no war. We want deescalation.

    I already said we made a bad mistake and it damaged much of our goals. I accept this. I also realize we isolated ourself and i hope things change for the better for us.
    Neither Russia wants a war, and they will not initiate a war with Turkey. Russia have enough economic tools at hand to squeeze the Turkish balls. But be prepared to take loss in the future and pray that Turkish pilots are not slaughtered by whoever captures them inside Syrian territory.
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    Post  Guest on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:01 pm

    Neutrality wrote:2 professors in astrophysics from the KUL (most prestigious Belgian university) decided to calculate based on the maps and claims released by both the Russians and the Turks. They conclude that both lie but there are some very important remarks they make. I'll quote and translate:

    De kaart die Rusland verspreidde na de crash, kan wetenschappelijk niet juist zijn’, zegt Van Doorsselaere.

    ‘Het vliegtuig maakt zogezegd een bocht van 90 graden nadat het geraakt wordt door een raket. Dat is nonsens. Dat moet dan een hele zware raket zijn, want het momentum (massa maal snelheid, red.) van een bestaande raket en de explosie is vele malen kleiner dan het momentum van de jet, en kan dus maar een kleine richtingsverandering veroorzaken tijdens de botsing.’

    "The map which was published by the Russians can't be accurate scientifically speaking, says Van Doorsselaere. It's claimed that the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit by the missile. That's nonsense. It had to be a very heavy rocket because the momentum of an existing rocket and the explosion is many times smaller than the momentum of the jet. And that can only cause a small alteration in the flypath at the time of the collision.

    ‘Dat de Turken zeggen dat de jet 17 seconden in hun luchtruim vloog, is eveneens nonsens. Omdat we weten van de Turkse kaart hoever het vliegtuig viel van de plaats waar het geraakt werd door de raket, kunnen we ook de snelheid van het vliegtuig schatten’, stelt Van Doorsselaere.

    ‘De crashsite was ongeveer 8 kilometer van de plaats waar het vliegtuig geraakt werd . Een horizontale afstand van 8 kilometer die afgelegd wordt op 30 seconden (de tijd voor de val) leidt tot een geschatte snelheid van 960km/u. Dit is ook de normale snelheid van lijnvliegtuigen op die hoogte, en is dus een redelijke schatting.’

    ‘De afstand die het Russische vliegtuig in Turkije doorbracht is iets minder dan 2 kilometer. Als het aan 960km/u vloog, dan bracht het 7,5 seconden door in het Turkse luchtruim. Schattingen limiteren de schending van het Turkse luchtruim tot ten hoogste 10 seconden.’

    The Turks claim that the jet spent 17 seconds in their air space, that's also absolute nonsense. Since we know how far the plane fell from the place where it was hit, judging from the maps published by the Turks, we can also estimate the speed of the plane, says Van Doorsselaere.

    The crashsite is approximately 8km. from the place where the jet was hit. A horizontal distance of 8km. which is covered in 30 seconds leads to an estimated speed of 960km/h. This is also a normal speed for charter flights at this altitude and thus a decent estimation.

    The distance that the Russian plane spent in Turkey is a little less than 2km. If the fighter flew at 960km/h, then it spent 7,5 seconds in Turkish air space. Estimations limit the violation of Turkish air space up to no more than 10 seconds.



    7,5 fucking seconds. Erdogan fucked up big time so I hope the first F-16 which hasn't reached Syrian air space just yet but is only approaching it, will get shot down. And more should follow if the Turks keep playing with fire.

    Is this coming from very legit source? Coz i find whole this "calculation" very unlikely. They dont have starting parameters, they dont have "real" maps, speeds, its basically BS based on only variables.

    "It's claimed that the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit by the missile. That's nonsense. It had to be a very heavy rocket because the momentum of an existing rocket and the explosion is many times smaller than the momentum of the jet." - this is not something phd educated engineer would write i must add also.

    Momentum has very little to do with aircraft turning after hit of any kind, its lose of control, spinning, drop in thrust, uncontrolled movement of control surfaces etc. Changing trajectory only by pure kinetic energy is very rare and object would have to move in obscene speeds and to be very heavy, with that statement i agree. On other hand jets very often go to spin and change their trajectories even after simple bird hit coz of one of the reasons i stated above.

    I am sorry but if these guys really claimed this they should send their diplomas to review board.

    Are you sure these guys are Phd educated?
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    Post  Acheron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:03 pm

    Mustafa wrote:
    Thats a honest question and i hope i get serious answer and no genocide, war bullshit.

    Everyone here is working hard to try to piece together as many details of the incident as possible, because, let's face it, this is not a minor incident like a car crash. When was the last time a Russian jet was shot by NATO member outside of combat areas? And especially in such...treacherous and unexpected (from a supposedly friendly Turkey)... manner.

    Had Russia knowingly ambushed a Turkish plane over Turkish territory, the situation would have been just as dire, and I would then expect some sort of concessions to be made by Russia to Turkey to smooth things out. I would also expect Russian officials to be making statements in the spirit of "regretting the incident, making sure a thorough investigation is conducted, maintaining close contact with our partners to come to a solution, etc...." (you know, the typical diplomatic stuff you say when you don't want so say too much). On the other hand, Erdogan's and Davutoglu's stream of statements in regards to this incident are just playing on stirring up Turkish emotions and creating a feeling of a grievous injustice, wounded pride and hyper-patriotism and are not at all helpful to the situation.

    I am pretty certain that the possible solution I outlined in one of my earlier posts would adequately satisfy both Turkish and Russian interests. The only minor concession Turkey would need to make is to drop the uncompromising "Assad must go NOW" demand. The other apparent Turkish demand, that of insuring the safety of Turkmen, can easily be agreed upon by everyone and arranged for. Therefore, after all is said and done, Turkey would still be in a better position than compared to just after the start of the Syrian conflict: Turkmen would be safe, Assad and Ba'ath can be removed from power democratically, and Turkey now have a better leverage in Syria due to the presence of Turkmen autonomy and Turkmen political representatives in parliament.

    Needless to say, if "Assad must go NOW" demand is dropped and the other demand is agreed upon, there will no longer be a need for Turkey to push for a no-fly zone, and Russia+Turkey+US-coalition can then lock down the border and finish removing the threat of JaN+IS. Win-win for everybody.
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:10 pm

    Email from Gazprom to Minister of Energy, Turkey. "Under the terms of our contract we have to advise you as early as possible about potential problems. We regret that one of the pumps in the Turkstream pipeline is experiencing intermittent problems. Would you please advise as to whether we should close the pipeline to allow replacement or run at reduced capacity. We will be able to make up any deficit, as we need to under the contract, during April/May 2016. An early reply would be appreciated."
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    Post  Acheron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:12 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    "The map which was published by the Russians can't be accurate scientifically speaking, says Van Doorsselaere. It's claimed that the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit by the missile. That's nonsense. It had to be a very heavy rocket because the momentum of an existing rocket and the explosion is many times smaller than the momentum of the jet. And that can only cause a small alteration in the flypath at the time of the collision.

    The plane might have been making an evasive maneuver just prior to it being hit. Also, if your plane's control surfaces and engine are damaged at 6km of altitude by a missile explosion, good luck with preserving your ground velocity vector while you are rushing to meet the ground (haven't they ever played airplane simulators). Unlike a piston engined plane, a jets air velocity is even more sensitive to such damage.

    Those "prefessors" have eliminated the obviously BS story from Turkey, while attempting to cast doubt on something which is quite realistic within the Russian story.
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    Post  Mustafa on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:16 pm

    Acheron wrote:
    Mustafa wrote:
    Thats a honest question and i hope i get serious answer and no genocide, war bullshit.

    Everyone here is working hard to try to piece together as many details of the incident as possible, because, let's face it, this is not a minor incident like a car crash. When was the last time a Russian jet was shot by NATO member outside of combat areas? And especially in such...treacherous and unexpected (from a supposedly friendly Turkey)... manner.

    Had Russia knowingly ambushed a Turkish plane over Turkish territory, the situation would have been just as dire, and I would then expect some sort of concessions to be made by Russia to Turkey to smooth things out. I would also expect Russian officials to be making statements in the spirit of "regretting the incident, making sure a thorough investigation is conducted, maintaining close contact with our partners to come to a solution, etc...." (you know, the typical diplomatic stuff you say when you don't want so say too much). On the other hand, Erdogan's and Davutoglu's stream of statements in regards to this incident are just playing on stirring up Turkish emotions and creating a feeling of a grievous injustice, wounded pride and hyper-patriotism and are not at all helpful to the situation.

    I am pretty certain that the possible solution I outlined in one of my earlier posts would adequately satisfy both Turkish and Russian interests. The only minor concession Turkey would need to make is to drop the uncompromising "Assad must go NOW" demand. The other apparent Turkish demand, that of insuring the safety of Turkmen, can easily be agreed upon by everyone and arranged for. Therefore, after all is said and done, Turkey would still be in a better position than compared to just after the start of the Syrian conflict: Turkmen would be safe, Assad and Ba'ath can be removed from power democratically, and Turkey now have a better leverage in Syria due to the presence of Turkmen autonomy and Turkmen political representatives in parliament.

    Needless to say, if "Assad must go NOW" demand is dropped and the other demand is agreed upon, there will no longer be a need for Turkey to push for a no-fly zone, and Russia+Turkey+US-coalition can then lock down the border and finish removing the threat of JaN+IS. Win-win for everybody.

    I´m not an idiot. I know we fucked up...If i would be president i would apology and offer to work together. But i´m not. This entire thing brought us in a very bad position. I don´t know why this was done, because it was not necessary. I already said at the beginning i would have escorted the foreign plane or fired warning shots at best. You know i may have hot temper as most turks. But we lso have honor. I can´t defend something that is not honorful. Shoting the one pilot in parachute is honorless ad i can´t support this. It damaged our reputation.

    The only thing that matters now is security of turkmen people in northern syria. Whatever our former interests there were must be kicked aside now.

    We are proud people, but if a mistake was done you must stand for it. And this was a mistake.
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    Post  Guest on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:16 pm



    2:05 Yugoslavian pilot Ilja Arizanov (MiG29 pilot that was shot down but bailed out) says i use exact words: "At the moment of the impact, aircraft was carried away to the left and started falling in left spiral".





    Some hit references in general.

    All i am saying is that trajectory upon hit is not being affected only by kinetic energy/momentum but at least dozen other factors. These "scientists" should quit doing calculations like this coz they are just bringing more s.hit to already very shitty situation all with goal of self promotion.
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    Post  Neutrality on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:20 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:2 professors in astrophysics from the KUL (most prestigious Belgian university) decided to calculate based on the maps and claims released by both the Russians and the Turks. They conclude that both lie but there are some very important remarks they make. I'll quote and translate:

    De kaart die Rusland verspreidde na de crash, kan wetenschappelijk niet juist zijn’, zegt Van Doorsselaere.

    ‘Het vliegtuig maakt zogezegd een bocht van 90 graden nadat het geraakt wordt door een raket. Dat is nonsens. Dat moet dan een hele zware raket zijn, want het momentum (massa maal snelheid, red.) van een bestaande raket en de explosie is vele malen kleiner dan het momentum van de jet, en kan dus maar een kleine richtingsverandering veroorzaken tijdens de botsing.’

    "The map which was published by the Russians can't be accurate scientifically speaking, says Van Doorsselaere. It's claimed that the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit by the missile. That's nonsense. It had to be a very heavy rocket because the momentum of an existing rocket and the explosion is many times smaller than the momentum of the jet. And that can only cause a small alteration in the flypath at the time of the collision.

    ‘Dat de Turken zeggen dat de jet 17 seconden in hun luchtruim vloog, is eveneens nonsens. Omdat we weten van de Turkse kaart hoever het vliegtuig viel van de plaats waar het geraakt werd door de raket, kunnen we ook de snelheid van het vliegtuig schatten’, stelt Van Doorsselaere.

    ‘De crashsite was ongeveer 8 kilometer van de plaats waar het vliegtuig geraakt werd . Een horizontale afstand van 8 kilometer die afgelegd wordt op 30 seconden (de tijd voor de val) leidt tot een geschatte snelheid van 960km/u. Dit is ook de normale snelheid van lijnvliegtuigen op die hoogte, en is dus een redelijke schatting.’

    ‘De afstand die het Russische vliegtuig in Turkije doorbracht is iets minder dan 2 kilometer. Als het aan 960km/u vloog, dan bracht het 7,5 seconden door in het Turkse luchtruim. Schattingen limiteren de schending van het Turkse luchtruim tot ten hoogste 10 seconden.’

    The Turks claim that the jet spent 17 seconds in their air space, that's also absolute nonsense. Since we know how far the plane fell from the place where it was hit, judging from the maps published by the Turks, we can also estimate the speed of the plane, says Van Doorsselaere.

    The crashsite is approximately 8km. from the place where the jet was hit. A horizontal distance of 8km. which is covered in 30 seconds leads to an estimated speed of 960km/h. This is also a normal speed for charter flights at this altitude and thus a decent estimation.

    The distance that the Russian plane spent in Turkey is a little less than 2km. If the fighter flew at 960km/h, then it spent 7,5 seconds in Turkish air space. Estimations limit the violation of Turkish air space up to no more than 10 seconds.



    7,5 fucking seconds. Erdogan fucked up big time so I hope the first F-16 which hasn't reached Syrian air space just yet but is only approaching it, will get shot down. And more should follow if the Turks keep playing with fire.

    Is this coming from very legit source? Coz i find whole this "calculation" very unlikely. They dont have starting parameters, they dont have "real" maps, speeds, its basically BS based on only variables.

    "It's claimed that the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit by the missile. That's nonsense. It had to be a very heavy rocket because the momentum of an existing rocket and the explosion is many times smaller than the momentum of the jet." - this is not something phd educated engineer would write i must add also.

    Momentum has very little to do with aircraft turning after hit of any kind, its lose of control, spinning, drop in thrust, uncontrolled movement of control surfaces etc. Changing trajectory only by pure kinetic energy is very rare and object would have to move in obscene speeds and to be very heavy, with that statement i agree. On other hand jets very often go to spin and change their trajectories even after simple bird hit coz of one of the reasons i stated above.

    I am sorry but if these guys really claimed this they should send their diplomas to review board.

    Are you sure these guys are Phd educated?

    This is on a very respectable newspaper.

    http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20151127_01992847
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:22 pm

    Mustafa wrote:The bullshit written here from some is laughable.

    Lets break it down to the facts.

    Yes we shot down an airplane. One idiot was killed. Now its diplomatic game and in a few days nobody will speak about it. Thats how it always goes. Evrything else is hot air.

    ... Anyone here wanting to discuss what we're dealing with here?

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    Post  Guest on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:25 pm



    This is on a very respectable newspaper.

    http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20151127_01992847

    Hmm, yeah this actually explains it. Professors claim something for goals of self promotion, respected newspapers publish article on it having naturally full confidence towards respected college and professors. Its not the newspapers/source that is to blame its these....researchers or whatever they like to call themself.

    I muself dont belive much to this article i find it very unlikely to have any real scientific weight.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:35 pm

    Mustafa wrote:

    Wedont want war and there will be no war. We want deescalation.

    I already said we made a bad mistake and it damaged much of our goals. I accept this. I also realize we isolated ourself and i hope things change for the better for us.

    What you want, isn't up to you now. If you wanted no "escalation", you shouldn't have shot at those planes. This, your kinsmen are paying in blood, soon, your countrymen will pay it too. This is pretty clear from what is going on.
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    Post  Acheron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:39 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Is this coming from very legit source? Coz i find whole this "calculation" very unlikely. They dont have starting parameters, they dont have "real" maps, speeds, its basically BS based on only variables.

    "It's claimed that the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit by the missile. That's nonsense. It had to be a very heavy rocket because the momentum of an existing rocket and the explosion is many times smaller than the momentum of the jet." - this is not something phd educated engineer would write i must add also.

    Momentum has very little to do with aircraft turning after hit of any kind, its lose of control, spinning, drop in thrust, uncontrolled movement of control surfaces etc. Changing trajectory only by pure kinetic energy is very rare and object would have to move in obscene speeds and to be very heavy, with that statement i agree. On other hand jets very often go to spin and change their trajectories even after simple bird hit coz of one of the reasons i stated above.

    I am sorry but if these guys really claimed this they should send their diplomas to review board.

    Are you sure these guys are Phd educated?

    By knowing the altitude of the hit you can estimate time to hit ground in free fall. From that and distance b/w missile hit and ground impact you can calculate ground velocity. From ground velocity you then calculate the duration of "violation". This is grade 10 physics. The thing is, we all know from the distance of the violation and likely aircraft speed that the crossing time would have been lower than that stated by the Turks. This "result" is not a surprise. The fact that they tried to cast aspersions on the Russian version by childish and completely stupid argument like "insufficient momentum of missile in order to change the net momentum of plane" (I am yet to hear of a missile that is capable of imparting momentum in the opposite direction to its velocity Very Happy) makes me think that this article was "ordered". After all, how can such experts as professors of astrophysicist be wrong. Let's all take them at their words.


    Last edited by Acheron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Werewolf on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:40 pm

    The only thing i do not believe from the russian side is that the other pilot has survived. In the video both pilots were not more than 50 meters away from each other the terrorists were very close and i doubt any of them survived. The pilot wasn't shown with his face, the interview seemed to pretended and no plausibility behind the story in my opinion. I see it as just an attempt to down play it and trying to avoid military actions.

    One pilot dead, the moot and will for revenge is high, but another has survived that calms the moot and peoples will to go for very hard consequences. I do believe that turkish terrorists son of a mayor said that both were killed, i don't believe he survived and they used just an actor whos face was kept away all times for a reason otherwise other pilots could identify him.
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    Post  Guest on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:52 pm

    Acheron wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Is this coming from very legit source? Coz i find whole this "calculation" very unlikely. They dont have starting parameters, they dont have "real" maps, speeds, its basically BS based on only variables.

    "It's claimed that the plane made a 90 degree turn after it was hit by the missile. That's nonsense. It had to be a very heavy rocket because the momentum of an existing rocket and the explosion is many times smaller than the momentum of the jet." - this is not something phd educated engineer would write i must add also.

    Momentum has very little to do with aircraft turning after hit of any kind, its lose of control, spinning, drop in thrust, uncontrolled movement of control surfaces etc. Changing trajectory only by pure kinetic energy is very rare and object would have to move in obscene speeds and to be very heavy, with that statement i agree. On other hand jets very often go to spin and change their trajectories even after simple bird hit coz of one of the reasons i stated above.

    I am sorry but if these guys really claimed this they should send their diplomas to review board.

    Are you sure these guys are Phd educated?

    By knowing the altitude of the hit you can estimate time to hit ground in free fall. From that and distance b/w missile hit and ground impact you can calculate ground velocity. From that ground velocity you get the lower duration of "violation". This is grade 10 physics. The thing is, we all know from the distance of the violation and likely aircraft speed that the crossing time would have been lower than that stated by the Turks. This "result" is not a surprise. The fact that they tried to cast aspersions on the Russian version by childish and completely stupid argument like "insufficient momentum of missile in order to change the net momentum of plane" (I am yet to hear of a missile that is capable of imparting momentum in the opposite direction to its velocity Very Happy) makes me think that this article was "ordered". After all, how can such experts as professors of astrophysicist be wrong. Let's all take them at their words.


    You need exact, legit numbers, we dont have them, noone basically has them. 6000m altitude is... so unprecise and quite useless number, its very different if it was 5.800m or 6.500m, we dont know the speed at the moment of impact which would greatly affect point of impact on the ground. Naturally using guessing we all can do calculation like this, but what will be the result? Total BS with as i already said very little scientific weight.

    Dont mind me i am an engineer i love high quality data to work with, all this second guessing hurts my exact scientific part of personality Very Happy
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    Post  Guest on Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:54 pm

    Werewolf wrote:The only thing i do not believe from the russian side is that the other pilot has survived. In the video both pilots were not more than 50 meters away from each other the terrorists were very close and i doubt any of them survived. The pilot wasn't shown with his face, the interview seemed to pretended and no plausibility behind the story in my opinion. I see it as just an attempt to down play it and trying to avoid military actions.

    One pilot dead, the moot and will for revenge is high, but another has survived that calms the moot and peoples will to go for very hard consequences. I  do believe that turkish terrorists son of a mayor said that both were killed, i don't believe he survived and they used just an actor whos face was kept away all times for a reason otherwise other pilots could identify him.

    There is still a question, why did not FSA/Turkmens whoever they are release photo or video of second pilot (navigator) but just one if they as they claim killed both? They would not miss the chance to brag for sure.
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    Post  Acheron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:07 pm

    Mustafa wrote:
    The only thing that matters now is security of turkmen people in northern syria. Whatever our former interests there were must be kicked aside now.

    We are proud people, but if a mistake was done you must stand for it. And this was a mistake.

    I can certainly agree that the civilian turkmen population anywhere in Syria should be protected. The question now is, what is the best solution to achieve that? I am all for a comprehensive ceasefire agreement b/w Turkmen brigades and Syrian army, under the conditions that: 1) extremist and jihadist elements such as JaN are purged from the area, 2) the border controls or some kind of monitoring mission (which includes all relevant state actors) on Turkish-Syrian border are established in order to halt transfer of arms, militants, military supplies, oil, and artifacts, and 3) the remaining opposition forces cease all fighting activities against Kurds and concentrate their efforts in combating JaN + IS.

    Incidentally, a similar solution is already being discussed between the heads of state. As Lavrov recently stated, participants of Vienna talks agreed to come up with a common list of terrorist organizations that everyone should target, and France + Russia have already suggested closing the northern Syrian border. I guess Turkey could help to expedite these measures, because the faster they are implemented, the fewer civilian casualties and collateral damage all sides will suffer.


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    Post  Mustafa on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:12 pm

    Acheron wrote:
    Mustafa wrote:
    The only thing that matters now is security of turkmen people in northern syria. Whatever our former interests there were must be kicked aside now.

    We are proud people, but if a mistake was done you must stand for it. And this was a mistake.

    I can certainly agree that the civilian turkmen population anywhere in Syria should be protected. The question now is, what is the best solution to achieve that? I am all for a comprehensive ceasefire agreement b/w Turkmen brigades and Syrian army, under the conditions that: 1) extremist and jihadist elements such as JaN are purged from the area, 2) the border controls or some kind of monitoring mission (which includes all relevant state actors) on Turkish-Syrian border are established in order to halt transfer of arms, militants, military supplies, oil, and artifacts, and 3) the remaining opposition forces cease all fighting activities against Kurds and concentrate their efforts in combating JaN + IS.

    Incidentally, a similar solution is already being discussed between the heads of state. As Lavrov recently stated, participants of Vienna talks agreed to come up with a common list of terrorist organizations that everyone should target, and France + Russia have already suggested closing the northern Syrian border. I guess Turkey could help to expedite these measures, because the faster they are implemented, the fewer civilian casualties and collateral damage all sides will suffer.



    I´m sure thats something evryone can agree with.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:13 pm

    S-400 and Erdogan´s reaction specially for turkish idiots before they gonna be sent to Syria kaboom





    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Mustafa wrote:The bullshit written here from some is laughable.

    Lets break it down to the facts.

    Yes we shot down an airplane. One idiot was killed. Now its diplomatic game and in a few days nobody will speak about it. Thats how it always goes. Evrything else is hot air.

    ... Anyone here wanting to discuss what we're dealing with here?


    Hot air from thermometric warheads over Turkish idiots pretending to be Syrians.
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    Post  Oguzhanoz on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:25 pm

    Hi people,
    I am back,i think there has been 6 pages written so far,i read it quicly,but just the ones about me.I think there has been news from Russian side.
    If you have any other question,i can tell my idea from another perspective.
    But i read that someone told me "troll".
    Well, on my twitter following list i have people supporting isis,nusra,turkmens,Esad any many other.
    What i am supporting ?
    Every other day i see kids split,heads crushed,arms cut.I just want that stop,that is my idea.And i think Russia made the things worse.They are protecting Esad.Russia has no mercy on human life.It was same in ww2 too.Not only for the opposite,also it's own people.
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    Post  max steel on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:26 pm

    Even if Russian plane crossed air space for few seconds it is not a reason to shot it down by formerly friendly nation. Also, according to international norms the plane must have been contacted, radio and visual communication must have been established, should have been asked to land, warning shots should have been fired and so forth before actual shooting. It cannot be done within few seconds. Russian plane was shot down four kilometres in Syrian space and to do that turkish plane flew inside Syrian Airspace . To do this heat seeking missile was used(probably Sidewinder) . It is was an ambush plain and simple.
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    Post  Werewolf on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:29 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:The only thing i do not believe from the russian side is that the other pilot has survived. In the video both pilots were not more than 50 meters away from each other the terrorists were very close and i doubt any of them survived. The pilot wasn't shown with his face, the interview seemed to pretended and no plausibility behind the story in my opinion. I see it as just an attempt to down play it and trying to avoid military actions.

    One pilot dead, the moot and will for revenge is high, but another has survived that calms the moot and peoples will to go for very hard consequences. I  do believe that turkish terrorists son of a mayor said that both were killed, i don't believe he survived and they used just an actor whos face was kept away all times for a reason otherwise other pilots could identify him.

    There is still a question, why did not FSA/Turkmens whoever they are release photo or video of second pilot (navigator) but just one if they as they claim killed both? They would not miss the chance to brag for sure.

    Yes that is the only open question there is to judge.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:43 pm

    Oguzhanoz wrote:Hi people,
    I am back,i think there has been 6 pages written so far,i read it quicly,but just the ones about me.I think there has been news from Russian side.
    If you have any other question,i can tell my idea from another perspective.
    But i read that someone told me "troll".
    Well, on my twitter following list i have people supporting isis,nusra,turkmens,Esad any many other.
    What i am supporting ?
    Every other day i see kids split,heads crushed,arms cut.I just want that stop,that is my idea.And i think Russia made the things worse.They are protecting Esad.Russia has no mercy on human life.It was same in ww2 too.Not only for the opposite,also it's own people.

    turkonazis accusing Russia of their own deeds? lol! lol! lol!

    BTW how is " wow we finally have our own, free from terrorists?" in Kurdish
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    Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter  - Page 27 Empty GunshipDemocracy

    Post  Oguzhanoz on Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:52 pm

    well just facts.
    they say "winners write the history". isn't it true ^^ If Nazis were to be victorious,so they would write.
    I heared that they are serving "Turkmens" as terrorist groups in Russia.
    Well,there is a civil war in Syria and every minority is armed. We mostly know about kurdish ypg or turkmens but there are many groups fighting.Sometimes theese groups change sides. For example ypg is both supported by Russia and Usa.People are talking about a post war between arabs and kurds,because this group is trying to occupy as much ground as possible in this war.
    If you want to have a neutral perspective,only Esad regime is legal. But which legal army bombs its civilians ? that is the question.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:06 pm

    @Mustafa

    I have nothing against Turks but Turkish nationalists who kill, decapitate or burn alive (in a moderate way).
    As for my response: you were then one who called murdered Russian pilot. Did not notice huh?


    Talking about hot air IGIL trucks with hot air
    Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter  - Page 27 Original

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    Post  Acheron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:12 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    You need exact, legit numbers, we dont have them, noone basically has them. 6000m altitude is... so unprecise and quite useless number, its very different if it was 5.800m or 6.500m, we dont know the speed at the moment of impact which would greatly affect point of impact on the ground. Naturally using guessing we all can do calculation like this, but what will be the result? Total BS with as i already said very little scientific weight.

    Dont mind me i am an engineer i love high quality data to work with, all this second guessing hurts my exact scientific part of personality Very Happy


    Well, lets see what sort of estimates we get from the well known equation of motion:

    First, we estimate the time to hit the ground while in free fall from 6000 m:

    equation (1) x = u t + 0.5 a t^2

    where v = final velocity, u = initial velocity, t = time, a = g = gravitational acceleration = 9.8 m s^-2, x = distance

    Rearranging equation (1) via a quadratic formula we get the expression for time till impact of a falling object: t = [ -u +/- sqrt( u^2 + 2 a x ) ] / a

    The ground velocity of the plane before it crashed  must have been: v = x/t = a x / [ -u +/- sqrt( u^2 + 2 a x ) ]

    We know the initial height of the plane (x = 6000 m), we know that initial vertical velocity of the plane (u = 0), we assume that ground acceleration is constant, to a good approximation (9.8 m s^-2).
    Plugging in these number gives the pre-missile-impact speed of the plane as: v = 171 m s^-1 = 616 km hr^-1
    At such speed, the 2km airspace will be crossed in 11 seconds.

    Of course, there are several simplifications here. Firstly, I assume that the falling plane never reaches terminal velocity. The vertical velocity at ground level that I am getting is ~340 m s^-1, which is essentially Mach 1. I am not sure whether such speeds are possible (some suggest it is). Secondly, I assume that air friction does not exist (if it would be implemented, that would effectively increase the plane's ground speed at missile impact point). The answer also depends on the exact numbers I have plugged in. Then there are other higher order corrections to consider if more accuracy is required. Either way, the first order estimate of 11 seconds is lower than the supposed 17 seconds cited by the Turks.


    PS: In my field I deal with a lot of measurements with significant uncertainties, so back-of-the-envelope first order estimates are always OK by me Very Happy


    Last edited by Acheron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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