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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow on Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:13 am

    Borey is very cheap. Thus, its level of advancement is much weaker than 885, it costs USD 2 billion.



    So USA will hava about 45 Virginia class submarina in 2030. Russia will have about six new 885/885M and mayby two Husky. So about 8 SSN. USA 45 Virgina class Russia 8 SSN Laughing
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:12 pm

    It doesn't really matter if it's two times cheaper. Prices aren't really comparable because of higher purchasing power in Russia.

    By 2030 Russia could have 13 modernized old SSNs, 7 Yasens and at least 24 SSKs (Varshavyanka's range is 7500 nmi, so you have a return ticket from Kamchatka to Los Angeles).

    Russia hopes to get one Husky by 2027 (very optimistic, considering recent experiences with new classes), higher numbers are pure speculations.

    So 45 vs. 45. What matters is what happens after 2030, when mass production of Huskies starts.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:40 pm

    Arrow wrote:Borey is very cheap. Thus, its level of advancement is much weaker than 885, it costs USD 2 billion.

    So USA will hava about 45 Virginia class submarina in 2030. Russia will have about six new 885/885M and mayby two Husky. So about 8 SSN. USA 45 Virgina class Russia 8 SSN Laughing

    Doesn't work that way bud.

    Saudi Arabia is full of overpriced overengineered weapons and it didn't help them none.

    What was Australia spending 15 billion dollars on again; a dozen diesel-electric Japanese subs?
    Sounds like a great deal. Not.
    For the money they're paying per sub, you can get a fully-modernized Typhoon-class SSBN with a massive complement of Kalibr cruise missiles.

    Russia went into Syria and paid for the operations out of its training budget; a tiny fraction of what the US or even Britain spent in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Doesn't always work that way of course. Russian fighter jets aren't that much cheaper than NATO ones. But for subs there's a huge difference in price; despite the technology and engineering solutions being comparable - or actually more expensive in the Russian case; such as double hulls.

    And we're talking about SSBNs here, not SSNs. Don't know why you brought the Virginias and Yasens into the picture. Troll.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:50 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:..........
    End life modernization of Kalmar would be somewhere in between, but could be closer to second number, due to new reactor fuel.
    .......

    No modernization of Deltas is required for land-attack function, just basic maintenance and missile adapters.

    And they will probably need less than half of usual crew complement with nuclear missiles out of the picture.

    Bargain.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:55 pm

    Perhaps I should change the font to make it easier to read.

    "Missile adapters" have been put on Antey. Only change from Granit missile to UKSK for Kalibrs + minor change of electronics. Price? 180 mio per boat!

    That was on cca 20 year old Anteys. Now I'm talking about 35-40 year old Delfins and Kalmars, that have been made for cca 45 year lifetime. Don't you think that refueling the reactor and other necessary changes just to keep it running would exceed price of Borei?

    Kalibrization has gone a long way. Soon there will be 15 Buyans, 22 Karakurts, 6 Gorshkovs, 24 Steregushchys, 8 Anteys, 7 Yasens, 24 Varshavyankas/Ladas with this missiles not to mention Husky SSGNs, all for protection of 2 bastions. Mission accomplished.

    In 2020s Russian focus will shift to blue water navy with Gorshkov Ms and Priboys. From defense to global positioning and building relations with allies, protecting SLOC etc.

    slasher

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  slasher on Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:48 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:It doesn't really matter if it's two times cheaper. Prices aren't really comparable because of higher purchasing power in Russia.

    By 2030 Russia could have 13 modernized old SSNs, 7 Yasens and at least 24 SSKs (Varshavyanka's range is 7500 nmi, so you have a return ticket from Kamchatka to Los Angeles).

    Russia hopes to get one Husky by 2027 (very optimistic, considering recent experiences with new classes), higher numbers are pure speculations.

    So 45 vs. 45. What matters is what happens after 2030, when mass production of Huskies starts.

    Just curious. Can you identify what these 13 might comprise of?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:52 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Perhaps I should change the font to make it easier to read.

    "Missile adapters" have been put on Antey. Only change from Granit missile to UKSK for Kalibrs + minor change of electronics. Price? 180 mio per boat!

    No missile adapters have been installed on Antei subs (Oscars)

    Wherever you got that info they are full of BS
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:03 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:"Missile adapters" have been put on Antey. Only change from Granit missile to UKSK for Kalibrs + minor change of electronics. Price? 180 mio per boat!

    No missile adapters have been installed on Antei subs (Oscars)

    and how Anteys' Granits tubes were adapted to carry 3 Kalibrs?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:04 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:"Missile adapters" have been put on Antey. Only change from Granit missile to UKSK for Kalibrs + minor change of electronics. Price? 180 mio per boat!

    No missile adapters have been installed on Antei subs (Oscars)

    and how Anteys' Granits tubes were adapted to carry 3 Kalibrs?

    None of them were, last one that got out of overhaul still uses Granits
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:29 am

    We are basically talking about an arsenal ship that carries lots of ready to fire missiles.

    If you don't convert a Delta, then you would probably use something like a cargo ship, but a Delta class sub would be orders of magnitude better in terms of stealth.

    Also already having been paid for and already in service the cost of removing the SLBM missile tubes and replacing that section area with enormous numbers of UKSK launchers for various cruise missile types should not be enormously expensive.

    Upgraded communications systems, and of course the fact that the missiles don't need monitoring or maintenance, so the size of the crew could be slashed to a minimum. That would increase quality of life on board the vessel in terms of space, and likely greatly extend the length of each trip. A decent sub tender could be used to load launch tubes if a change of the balance of missiles was needed... you could have it sailing around the Antarctic with its torpedo tubes loaded with unlimited range nuclear powered cruise missiles, and the main tubes armed with 5,000km range Kh-101/2 variants...

    Make the Americans spend more money on 360 degree radar detection systems and threaten them with low flying cruise missiles the way they did to the soviets in the cold war...

    None of them were, last one that got out of overhaul still uses Granits

    The modification could be simply a liner like they do to allow the use of 533mm torpedoes through the 650mm torpedo tubes... in which case it would be rather clever because it could then keep using Granits till they are used up and then convert to Onyx... and that would be all Oscar and Oscar II vessels and of course all Kirov Class Cruisers too... who also use angled Granit launch tubes... even the Kuznetsov could use it...

    Obviously there is an intention to upgrade the Kirovs with UKSK at some stage, but some sort of tube liner could make that less of a priority for now.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:07 am

    PapaDragon wrote:None of them were, last one that got out of overhaul still uses Granits

    When you'll learn Russian you'll be able to find official website where six modernization tasks for Orel submarine are listed, incl. change from Granit to Onyx. Anteys are only 22-30 year old boats meaning that they still have 10-20 years of active duty awaiting. Russian (or other) nuclear submarines aren't decomissioned before reaching 40 years. They'll definitely be modernized to UKSK standard. Together with Yasens they'll pose significant threat to any adversary. Russians could use Yasens for patrolling around NATO waters where stealth is most needed and Anteys for less important missions in Pacific and Indian ocean, until Husky SSGN is ready.

    These submarines could prove also strategically important. Both Granit and Kalibr can carry nuclear warheads and since US air defences are focused on anti-ballistic defence, the threat of nuclear armed cruise missiles on all 15 SSGNs means that Russians have some serious naval deterrence also besides SSBNs.

    GarryB wrote:We are basically talking about an arsenal ship that carries lots of ready to fire missiles.

    Sure you can talk... in the meantime Russians are doing the opposite. Rather than putting all eggs in one noisy basket thay are splitting them across many stealthy ones.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:08 pm

    I'm thinking that maybe the decision to build an extra two Borei-As came because they've decided to retire the last remaining Typhoon-class SSBN within the next 10 years (or convert it into something else).

    What do you guys think?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:39 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    None of them were, last one that got out of overhaul still uses Granits

    Tomaks was overhauled but AFAIK not modernized. Omsk, Chelyabinsk, Irkutsk should undergo modernization.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:50 pm

    flamming_python wrote:I'm thinking that maybe the decision to build an extra two Borei-As came because they've decided to retire the last remaining Typhoon-class SSBN within the next 10 years (or convert it into something else).

    What do you guys think?

    Are these 2 Boreis on top of current order for 4 and planned order for extra 6 or are they part of those orders?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:04 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Borey is very cheap. Thus, its level of advancement is much weaker than 885, it costs USD 2 billion.

    So USA will hava about 45 Virginia class submarina in 2030. Russia will have about six new 885/885M and mayby two Husky. So about 8 SSN. USA 45 Virgina class Russia 8 SSN Laughing

    Doesn't work that way bud.

    Saudi Arabia is full of overpriced overengineered weapons and it didn't help them none.

    What was Australia spending 15 billion dollars on again; a dozen diesel-electric Japanese subs?
    Sounds like a great deal. Not.
    For the money they're paying per sub, you can get a fully-modernized Typhoon-class SSBN with a massive complement of Kalibr cruise missiles.

    Russia went into Syria and paid for the operations out of its training budget; a tiny fraction of what the US or even Britain spent in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Doesn't always work that way of course. Russian fighter jets aren't that much cheaper than NATO ones. But for subs there's a huge difference in price; despite the technology and engineering solutions being comparable - or actually more expensive in the Russian case; such as double hulls.

    And we're talking about SSBNs here, not SSNs. Don't know why you brought the Virginias and Yasens into the picture. Troll.

    Arrow is a known retard on this site, spewing nonsense and lies as I called him out on it and proved him wrong with actual data and links. Surprised everyone here has not blocked him yet like vann.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:24 pm

    Are these 2 Boreis on top of current order for 4 and planned order for extra 6 or are they part of those orders?
    Was my question too.
    I think its the first 2 of the 'planned 6' & therefore a delay vs previously given 2023 date.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am

    Sure you can talk... in the meantime Russians are doing the opposite. Rather than putting all eggs in one noisy basket thay are splitting them across many stealthy ones.

    Of course, from their experience in Syria, if they want to launch a cruise missile attack on land based targets in Syria.... they just send 3-4 Corvettes each time.... except if the target is in Africa it is not so easy to send 3-4 corvettes each time you want to mount an attack.

    And while 3-4 corvettes are invulnerable, a noisy Delta IV class sub would be dead meat instantly... NOT.

    It is not about creating a super weapon for WWIII that will attack the US with impunity, it is about having an arsenal ship for a slog against a much smaller enemy that likely wont have any response to a corvette let alone a nuclear submarine... the point isn't that a converted Delta class sub will be a super weapon... it would be a useful large container that can carry enough weapons so it can go anywhere in the world and deliver 5 or six decent sized attacks without having to rearm.

    As I said, the alternative is a cargo ship converted to the purpose, but that would either require actually buying a cargo ship or making one...

    I'm thinking that maybe the decision to build an extra two Borei-As came because they've decided to retire the last remaining Typhoon-class SSBN within the next 10 years (or convert it into something else).

    If you are referring to the Typhoon class still in use, isn't that for testing Bulava?

    I would expect it does not spend times between tests loaded with SLBMs for operational use as an SSBN.

    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow on Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:00 am

    a noisy Delta IV class sub would be dead meat instantly.. wrote:

    Delta IV is nosiy ?
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    If you are referring to the Typhoon class still in use, isn't that for testing Bulava?

    I usually see it listed as an operational sub on combat duty , although that could just be because the sources are wrong.

    I would expect it does not spend times between tests loaded with SLBMs for operational use as an SSBN.

    Why not?

    SLBMs are also routinely tested from operational subs. Now that this missile is in service, keeping the Typhoon as just a mere test platform for it doesn't make sense. It's an expensive vessel to maintain, and it carries Russia's latest SLBM - so you might as well put it to proper use.

    Arrow wrote:

    Delta IV is nosiy ?

    The Delta I-IIIs were noisy. But I don't think it holds for the Delta IV
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:49 pm

    It was this year we're they used Delta IV in an exercise we're it launched Sineva missiles
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:19 pm

    miketheterrible wrote: Surprised everyone here has not blocked him yet like vann.

    How to do it?

    GarryB wrote:
    it is about having an arsenal ship for a slog against a much smaller enemy that likely wont have any response to a corvette let alone a nuclear submarine...

    Well for that reason they're conveting 8 Anteys to Kalibr standard and making 7 Yasens. Sounds enough for me. 72 and 32 Kalibrs each.

    flamming_python wrote: I usually see it listed as an operational sub on combat duty , although that could just be because the sources are wrong.

    Not even Nevsky and Monomakh fire Bulava. Only Dolgoruky. The last Donskoy's Bulava test was 8 years ago. Shishkin's evidence keeps iit in grey colour - officially active, but not operational. My guess would be that they're waiting for more Boreis to be constructed before decomissioning, so they don't have less SSBNs than US.

    miketheterrible wrote:It was this year we're they used Delta IV in an exercise we're it launched Sineva missiles

    They still use those old missiles? Why not Layner? Does it require different launcher?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:38 pm

    Lyner is good but since Borei is to replace the Delta's eventually and Bulava to replace the Sineva/Lyner, the best they did was modernize Sineva with modern targeting systems and other adjustments not I am aware of. So it is a solid missile and able to do what it is intended to do.

    I would wager they will, instead of replacing Delta's entirely, they will probably refurbish them for other purposes.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:39 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:.........
    Not even Nevsky and Monomakh fire Bulava. Only Dolgoruky. .....

    What do they fire?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:.........
    Not even Nevsky and Monomakh fire Bulava. Only Dolgoruky. .....

    What do they fire?

    He must be confused cause Nevsky fired Bulava in 2015.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:08 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:.........
    Not even Nevsky and Monomakh fire Bulava. Only Dolgoruky. .....

    What do they fire?

    He must be confused cause Nevsky fired Bulava in 2015.

    After finishing state trials neither Nevsky nor Monomakh fired any Bulava. In the last 3 years only Dolgoruky fires them. The Klinov's critical article (that revealed P-8's flight above all 10 Russian submerged subs last month) suggested that their missile tubes must be empty all the time for some reason.

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