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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:07 pm

    This source also omits the Oscars as the likely platform: https://sputniknews.com/military/201707171055619054-russia-zircon-missile-development/

    With current shortage of surface ships, Oscars armed with Kalibrs can attack more sea & land targets.  
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201706071054404989-russian-subs-upgraded-with-kalibr/

    They r noisier than the other subs & require SSN escort if deployed to shadow CSGs. Even if the theoretical capability of launching Zircons was there, it may not be practicable.
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    dino00

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  dino00 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:23 am


    Russian submarine fleet capable of launching missiles armed with hypersonics and nukes will be ready for war by 2024

    A new Russian nuclear-powered submarine fleet, capable of launching ICBMs armed with hypersonic weapons, will be ready for war by 2024, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.
    In order to finance eight of the submarines, Moscow cut funding for other military modernization programs, such as the nation's surface vessel fleet, according to the person, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity.

    The Borei II, also designated Borei-A, is a fourth-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine that has the potential to launch 200 nuclear or hypersonic weapons at one time

    WASHINGTON — A new Russian nuclear-powered submarine fleet, capable of launching intercontinental ballistic missiles outfitted with hypersonic weapons, will be ready for war by 2024, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.

    In order to finance eight of the submarines, Moscow cut funding for other military modernization programs, such as the nation's surface vessel fleet, according to the person, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity.

    The Borei II submarine, also designated Borei-A, is a fourth-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine that is slated to join the Russian Navy's Northern and Pacific Fleets. The U.S. Navy, by comparison, boasts one of the largest submarine fleets in the world, with 14 Ohio-class vessels tasked with the nuclear deterrence mission.

    The Borei II, which is the first class of submarines developed by Russia since the Cold War, can launch 20 Bulava intercontinental ballistic missiles. Each Bulava can carry a bomb yielding 100 to 150 kilotons, which is approximately 10 times more powerful than the Little Boy atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

    What's more, unlike a traditional missile, which carries one warhead, the Bulava missile is capable of carrying up to 10 nuclear and hypersonic weapons on its tip. That means one Borei II submarine could potentially launch 200 hypersonic weapons, a threat the U.S. is currently unable to defend against

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/21/russia-sub-fleet-capable-of-launching-hypersonics-will-be-ready-by-2024.html
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:26 am

    Unammed sources strike again.

    Borei has been made for years and already ready for service, and already floating around carrying hypersonic missiles (Bulava drops faster than mach 10).

    Americans are stupid. Along with people peddling their sources
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:49 am

    Yeh this person with firsthand knowledge should know at least that Borei II has 16 Bulavas.

    And what sources for surface fleet were cut? Naval construction hasn't seen such speed since late 80s.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:54 pm

    Borei SSGN version, pretty please Navy!!! love
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:49 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    And what sources for surface fleet were cut? Naval construction hasn't seen such speed since late 80s.

    CVNs postponed to 2030s Liders too, instead of 11356 you have 22800. It doesnt look like budget increases to me.




    PapaDragon wrote:Borei SSGN version, pretty please Navy!!! love

    if Bulava gets Avangard warheads it should be just fine lol1 lol1 lol1

    hoom

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:00 pm

    Yeh this person with firsthand knowledge should know at least that Borei II has 16 Bulavas.
    Firsthand knowledge of the Wiki page for Borei class Razz
    Literally there is nothing not already widely public in that text & the failure to update the missile count is just laughable fail.

    Probably this is a tie-in to the recent UK propaganda bit about 'Yasen-A' supposedly hanging around Faslane Rolling Eyes & which had a fairly prominent mention of Borei-A for no good reason.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:53 am

    The scary thing is that loyal readers and patriotic americans will believe this shit and think... crap... by 2024 the Russians might have nuclear weapons that can reach US cities... oh... no... now when the next elections come up and one of the candidates says they want to reduce the war budget... how will they react?

    Surely they need to increase the budget to deal with this potential new threat from Russia... america cannot be left vulnerable to Russian nuclear attack... it is just unamerican!

    Borei will never have 20 launch tubes... it is simply not going to happen... don't they understand the concept of "all your eggs in one basket"?

    Of course with belligerent Trump in charge, with the potential for crazy hilary or some replicant that wants to show the democrats are harder on Russia than trump was, then I guess there will be no replacement for the new start treaty and they might have super SSBNs with 30 SLBMs per boat, but I suspect it would be rather more likely they just build more boats and some SLBM barges they can tow around with nuclear icebreakers...

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:09 am

    With Bulava SLBM testing over, they could return D. Donskoi SSBN to the fleet with its 20 tubes; to stay in SALT, they can deactivate/convert 1/2 older Deltas. Icebreakers r needed to help surface ships on the NSR & expeditions to the Antarctic.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow on Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:53 pm

    Borei will never have 20 launch tubes... it is simply not going to happen... don't they understand the concept of "all your eggs in one basket"? wrote:

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:56 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    They are limited to international treaties and they already have the biggesr nuclear arsenal.

    16 launch tubes means they can build more borei so more plateforms so more survivability.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:48 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    Borei will never have 20 launch tubes... it is simply not going to happen... don't they understand the concept of "all your eggs in one basket"? wrote:

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    No, Russia needs larger and more uniform SSBN fleet which they are now finally getting with 6 more Borei-A ordered instead of waiting for 4 Borei-B.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:02 pm

    14 Boreis with 16 missiles each = 224 missiles. 6 to 10 warheads on every missile = 1.344 to 2.240 warheads. This is more than allowed by the last START treaty.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:25 pm

    New start allows Russia 1550 deployed warheads...Boreis will have 14*16*6=1344 warheads. 6 each missile.

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:51 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:New start allows Russia 1550 deployed warheads...Boreis will have 14*16*6=1344 warheads. 6 each missile.
    Just like on the RN & probably USN subs on patrol, it's possible that not all tubes r filled with BMs: https://fas.org/nuke/guide/uk/slbm/d-5.htm
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:05 am

    With Bulava SLBM testing over, they could return D. Donskoi SSBN to the fleet with its 20 tubes; to stay in SALT, they can deactivate/convert 1/2 older Deltas. Icebreakers r needed to help surface ships on the NSR & expeditions to the Antarctic.

    The DD didn't have 20 tubes able to launch Bulavas... it only had a couple as far as I am aware so the best you could hope for is to load 1 or 2 Bulavas and 18 or 19 Sinevas... and even then you would have to ask yourself why... it makes rather more sense to have a higher number of subs with slightly fewer missiles each than a couple of subs with huge numbers of missiles on each.

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    Much cheaper to develop 10,000km range cruise missiles and then make thousands.

    New start allows Russia 1550 deployed warheads...Boreis will have 14*16*6=1344 warheads. 6 each missile.

    SLBMs are usually counted as having something like 3 warheads no matter how many it actually has.

    Plus by the time they actually have 14 Boreis in service all the Deltas will be gone and the Akulas, and most of the first few Boreis will likely be converted into cruise missile carriers...
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:41 am

    The new modification of the Borey submarines is too expensive.
    The 1st 3 may be upgraded to A later.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:06 am

    Thats talking about abandoning Borey B which we knew about when that article was posted.
    Doesn't say anything about changing the first 3 to A, even explicitly not
    A total of 14 such submarines will serve in the Russian Navy: 3 ordinary and 11 in modification "A"
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:16 am

    Doesn't say anything about changing the first 3 to A, even explicitly not
    I wrote: The 1st 3 may be upgraded to A later.
    So, it may or may not happen; or they could be upgraded to near A standard. Time will tell!
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:52 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Doesn't say anything about changing the first 3 to A, even explicitly not
    I wrote: The 1st 3 may be upgraded to A later.
    So, it may or may not happen; or they could be upgraded to near A standard. Time will tell!

    When it comes to conversion of first 3, that's a discussion to be had in about decade or so. In the meantime they work just fine.

    Borei-B is not cancelled but it's on the distant back burner because improvements​ do not justify increased price (almost 50%)

    Also, it would mean they would only get 4 Borei-B​ instead of 6 Borei-A with all accompanying delays that brand new platform would include.

    This decision was made several months after Knyaz Vladimir started trials so quite possible that they are quite satisfied with Borei-A and that they don't see the need to push the whole thing into needless excess.
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    Big_Gazza

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    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:10 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Doesn't say anything about changing the first 3 to A, even explicitly not
    I wrote: The 1st 3 may be upgraded to A later.
    So, it may or may not happen; or they could be upgraded to near A standard. Time will tell!

    When it comes to conversion of first 3, that's a discussion to be had in about decade or so. In the meantime they work just fine.

    Borei-B is not cancelled but it's on the distant back burner because improvements​ do not justify increased price (almost 50%)

    Also, it would mean they would only get 4 Borei-B​ instead of 6 Borei-A with all accompanying delays that brand new platform would include.

    This decision was made several months after Knyaz Vladimir started trials so quite possible that they are quite satisfied with Borei-A and that they don't see the need to push the whole thing into needless excess.

    Good analysis, right on the mark. Its somewhat like Gorshkovs' old maxim "good enough is good enough". No need to force-feed the (state-owned) MIC with additional funds to improve a design that is already adequate.

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