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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:48 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    Borei will never have 20 launch tubes... it is simply not going to happen... don't they understand the concept of "all your eggs in one basket"? wrote:

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    No, Russia needs larger and more uniform SSBN fleet which they are now finally getting with 6 more Borei-A ordered instead of waiting for 4 Borei-B.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:02 pm

    14 Boreis with 16 missiles each = 224 missiles. 6 to 10 warheads on every missile = 1.344 to 2.240 warheads. This is more than allowed by the last START treaty.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:25 pm

    New start allows Russia 1550 deployed warheads...Boreis will have 14*16*6=1344 warheads. 6 each missile.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:51 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:New start allows Russia 1550 deployed warheads...Boreis will have 14*16*6=1344 warheads. 6 each missile.
    Just like on the RN & probably USN subs on patrol, it's possible that not all tubes r filled with BMs: https://fas.org/nuke/guide/uk/slbm/d-5.htm
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:05 am

    With Bulava SLBM testing over, they could return D. Donskoi SSBN to the fleet with its 20 tubes; to stay in SALT, they can deactivate/convert 1/2 older Deltas. Icebreakers r needed to help surface ships on the NSR & expeditions to the Antarctic.

    The DD didn't have 20 tubes able to launch Bulavas... it only had a couple as far as I am aware so the best you could hope for is to load 1 or 2 Bulavas and 18 or 19 Sinevas... and even then you would have to ask yourself why... it makes rather more sense to have a higher number of subs with slightly fewer missiles each than a couple of subs with huge numbers of missiles on each.

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    Much cheaper to develop 10,000km range cruise missiles and then make thousands.

    New start allows Russia 1550 deployed warheads...Boreis will have 14*16*6=1344 warheads. 6 each missile.

    SLBMs are usually counted as having something like 3 warheads no matter how many it actually has.

    Plus by the time they actually have 14 Boreis in service all the Deltas will be gone and the Akulas, and most of the first few Boreis will likely be converted into cruise missile carriers...
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:41 am

    The new modification of the Borey submarines is too expensive.
    The 1st 3 may be upgraded to A later.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:06 am

    Thats talking about abandoning Borey B which we knew about when that article was posted.
    Doesn't say anything about changing the first 3 to A, even explicitly not
    A total of 14 such submarines will serve in the Russian Navy: 3 ordinary and 11 in modification "A"
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:16 am

    Doesn't say anything about changing the first 3 to A, even explicitly not
    I wrote: The 1st 3 may be upgraded to A later.
    So, it may or may not happen; or they could be upgraded to near A standard. Time will tell!
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:52 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Doesn't say anything about changing the first 3 to A, even explicitly not
    I wrote: The 1st 3 may be upgraded to A later.
    So, it may or may not happen; or they could be upgraded to near A standard. Time will tell!

    When it comes to conversion of first 3, that's a discussion to be had in about decade or so. In the meantime they work just fine.

    Borei-B is not cancelled but it's on the distant back burner because improvements​ do not justify increased price (almost 50%)

    Also, it would mean they would only get 4 Borei-B​ instead of 6 Borei-A with all accompanying delays that brand new platform would include.

    This decision was made several months after Knyaz Vladimir started trials so quite possible that they are quite satisfied with Borei-A and that they don't see the need to push the whole thing into needless excess.
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    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:10 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Doesn't say anything about changing the first 3 to A, even explicitly not
    I wrote: The 1st 3 may be upgraded to A later.
    So, it may or may not happen; or they could be upgraded to near A standard. Time will tell!

    When it comes to conversion of first 3, that's a discussion to be had in about decade or so. In the meantime they work just fine.

    Borei-B is not cancelled but it's on the distant back burner because improvements​ do not justify increased price (almost 50%)

    Also, it would mean they would only get 4 Borei-B​ instead of 6 Borei-A with all accompanying delays that brand new platform would include.

    This decision was made several months after Knyaz Vladimir started trials so quite possible that they are quite satisfied with Borei-A and that they don't see the need to push the whole thing into needless excess.

    Good analysis, right on the mark. Its somewhat like Gorshkovs' old maxim "good enough is good enough". No need to force-feed the (state-owned) MIC with additional funds to improve a design that is already adequate.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:54 pm

    Knyaz Vladimir started factory trials on 28th November and dived for the first time.



    Borei no. 11 & 12 to start production in 2024.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:30 am


    And here be photo of young debutante, dark, grainy and low res in best tradition of Cold War Cool

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:18 am

    In the old cold war there would have been no lights on the sub. Very Happy
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:18 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Knyaz Vladimir started factory trials on 28th November and dived for the first time.



    Borei no. 11 & 12 to start production in 2024.
    Not a pic of Knyaz Vladimir.

    Edit: just incase there was any remaining doubt about the missile count Google Earth did catch it with the hatches open (exposure like that is part of START or something isn't it?)
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:06 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Knyaz Vladimir started factory trials on 28th November and dived for the first time.



    Borei no. 11 & 12 to start production in 2024.

    Borei no 9th and 10th

    Russia to build 2 more Borei-A strategic nuclear-powered submarines by 2028

    The Russian Navy currently operates three Project 955 Borei submarines


    MOSCOW, November 30. /TASS/. Russia will build two more Project 955A Borei-A serial-produced nuclear-powered strategic submarines at the Sevmash Shipyard and their total number will rise to ten, a source in the defense industry told TASS on Friday.

    "The state armament program for 2018-2027 includes the construction of two more Project 955A Borei submarines that have not yet received their names. The construction will begin at the Sevmash in 2024," the source said, adding that "the first submarine should be delivered to the Fleet in 2026 and the second in 2027."

    The Russian Navy currently operates three Project 955 Borei submarines. The Project 955A Borei-A lead submarine is undergoing shipbuilders’ sea trials and four serial-produced Project 955A submarines have been laid down and are under construction, the source said.

    "With the keel-laying of two more underwater cruisers, the number of Project 955 and Project 955A strategic submarines in the Russian Navy will rise to ten. Five of them will be operational in the Northern Fleet and the other five in the Pacific Fleet," the source said.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1033658
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:08 am

    About these 2 more: they previously announced there would be 6 more Borei-A to be laid down 'after 2023' http://tass.com/defense/1005356
    There have been 8 Boreis laid down/completed so far -> 14 total announced.
    Is it announcing increasing the total to 16? Or changing the keel laying of that additional 6 to 'after 2024'?
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:20 am

    George1 wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:Knyaz Vladimir started factory trials on 28th November and dived for the first time.



    Borei no. 11 & 12 to start production in 2024.

    Borei no 9th and 10th

    Russia to build 2 more Borei-A strategic nuclear-powered submarines by 2028

    The Russian Navy currently operates three Project 955 Borei submarines


    MOSCOW, November 30. /TASS/. Russia will build two more Project 955A Borei-A serial-produced nuclear-powered strategic submarines at the Sevmash Shipyard and their total number will rise to ten, a source in the defense industry told TASS on Friday.

    "The state armament program for 2018-2027 includes the construction of two more Project 955A Borei submarines that have not yet received their names. The construction will begin at the Sevmash in 2024," the source said, adding that "the first submarine should be delivered to the Fleet in 2026 and the second in 2027."

    The Russian Navy currently operates three Project 955 Borei submarines. The Project 955A Borei-A lead submarine is undergoing shipbuilders’ sea trials and four serial-produced Project 955A submarines have been laid down and are under construction, the source said.

    "With the keel-laying of two more underwater cruisers, the number of Project 955 and Project 955A strategic submarines in the Russian Navy will rise to ten. Five of them will be operational in the Northern Fleet and the other five in the Pacific Fleet," the source said.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1033658
    Great news; this means that the rest of the Delta IVs (and the Delta III) can be comfortably either retired or converted into special-purpose subs over the next 10 years.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:53 am

    The 667BDRM´s received a overhaul and small modernisation and carry a new SLBM, they can stay in service until at least 2030/2035. No need to hurry after the next four Borei-A´s have been finished.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:32 pm

    Hole wrote:The 667BDRM´s received a overhaul and small modernisation and carry a new SLBM, they can stay in service until at least 2030/2035. No need to hurry after the next four Borei-A´s have been finished.
    True
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:20 pm


    Those Deltas should be converted into SSGNs (Ohio style) once new Boreis arrive

    They are in good condition overall and have been maintained properly throughout their service life, their only downside is noise which is not relevant for for missile farms

    This way Navy can get boost in number of VLS tubes without needing to overinvest in surface fleet

    Corvettes and frigates would always have 100+ cruise missiles on speed dial
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:34 pm

    The downside is expensive maintenance of old nuclear submarines. True, Orenburg and Podmoskovye were converted from new (cca 15 year old) SSBNs, but newer GUGI's carrier submarines like Belgorod and Khabarovsk are newly build, at the time when Kalmar class Podolsk and Svyatoy Georgiy Pobedonosets SSBNs will be scrapped. I don't see missile supply as a bottleneck in Russian navy, which is probably the reason why there are no submarine missile carriers in Russian or other navies.

    I however very much agree with building SSNs (also SSGNs) in the 2020s, because this is the time when most US LA-class hunters will retire. The total SSN number will drop record low (from current 60+ to cca 45, including newly made Virginias). So if Russians can strategically exploit this decade for making perhaps 5 Huskies they'll put a lot of presure on the US in the 2030s. They'll have to make 3 submarines per year - 2 Virginias and 1 Columbia, so other areas of army will suffer.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:26 am

    If they are going to convert old subs to new purposes an upgrade of systems and equipment to new modern stuff should lower the requirement for maintanence and simplify the process...
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:08 am

    The 667BDRM´s received a overhaul and small modernisation and carry a new SLBM, they can stay in service until at least 2030/2035. No need to hurry after the next four Borei-A´s have been finished.
    That depends entirely on to what extent they are able to actually patrol without being picked up & followed by a US SSN.
    From my understanding the Deltas have never been considered particularly quiet & I believe at least one case of '90s sub collisions has involved a US sub trailing a Delta so IMO the sooner they're out of service the better.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:59 am

    hoom wrote:
    The 667BDRM´s received a overhaul and small modernisation and carry a new SLBM, they can stay in service until at least 2030/2035. No need to hurry after the next four Borei-A´s have been finished.
    That depends entirely on to what extent they are able to actually patrol without being picked up & followed by a US SSN.
    From my understanding the Deltas have never been considered particularly quiet & I believe at least one case of '90s sub collisions has involved a US sub trailing a Delta so IMO the sooner they're out of service the better.

    Missile farms don't need to be quiet, slot Kalibr missiles in them and let 'em rip
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:15 am

    Mid life modernization of Antey costs
    180 mio (new missiles and electronics)

    End life modernization of Akula costs 800 mio.

    End life modernization of Kalmar would be somewhere in between, but could be closer to second number, due to new reactor fuel.

    New Borei costs 430 mio.

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