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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:07 pm

    This source also omits the Oscars as the likely platform: https://sputniknews.com/military/201707171055619054-russia-zircon-missile-development/

    With current shortage of surface ships, Oscars armed with Kalibrs can attack more sea & land targets.  
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201706071054404989-russian-subs-upgraded-with-kalibr/

    They r noisier than the other subs & require SSN escort if deployed to shadow CSGs. Even if the theoretical capability of launching Zircons was there, it may not be practicable.
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    dino00

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  dino00 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:23 am


    Russian submarine fleet capable of launching missiles armed with hypersonics and nukes will be ready for war by 2024

    A new Russian nuclear-powered submarine fleet, capable of launching ICBMs armed with hypersonic weapons, will be ready for war by 2024, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.
    In order to finance eight of the submarines, Moscow cut funding for other military modernization programs, such as the nation's surface vessel fleet, according to the person, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity.

    The Borei II, also designated Borei-A, is a fourth-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine that has the potential to launch 200 nuclear or hypersonic weapons at one time

    WASHINGTON — A new Russian nuclear-powered submarine fleet, capable of launching intercontinental ballistic missiles outfitted with hypersonic weapons, will be ready for war by 2024, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.

    In order to finance eight of the submarines, Moscow cut funding for other military modernization programs, such as the nation's surface vessel fleet, according to the person, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity.

    The Borei II submarine, also designated Borei-A, is a fourth-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine that is slated to join the Russian Navy's Northern and Pacific Fleets. The U.S. Navy, by comparison, boasts one of the largest submarine fleets in the world, with 14 Ohio-class vessels tasked with the nuclear deterrence mission.

    The Borei II, which is the first class of submarines developed by Russia since the Cold War, can launch 20 Bulava intercontinental ballistic missiles. Each Bulava can carry a bomb yielding 100 to 150 kilotons, which is approximately 10 times more powerful than the Little Boy atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

    What's more, unlike a traditional missile, which carries one warhead, the Bulava missile is capable of carrying up to 10 nuclear and hypersonic weapons on its tip. That means one Borei II submarine could potentially launch 200 hypersonic weapons, a threat the U.S. is currently unable to defend against

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/21/russia-sub-fleet-capable-of-launching-hypersonics-will-be-ready-by-2024.html
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:26 am

    Unammed sources strike again.

    Borei has been made for years and already ready for service, and already floating around carrying hypersonic missiles (Bulava drops faster than mach 10).

    Americans are stupid. Along with people peddling their sources
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:49 am

    Yeh this person with firsthand knowledge should know at least that Borei II has 16 Bulavas.

    And what sources for surface fleet were cut? Naval construction hasn't seen such speed since late 80s.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:54 pm

    Borei SSGN version, pretty please Navy!!! love
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:49 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    And what sources for surface fleet were cut? Naval construction hasn't seen such speed since late 80s.

    CVNs postponed to 2030s Liders too, instead of 11356 you have 22800. It doesnt look like budget increases to me.




    PapaDragon wrote:Borei SSGN version, pretty please Navy!!! love

    if Bulava gets Avangard warheads it should be just fine lol1 lol1 lol1

    hoom

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:00 pm

    Yeh this person with firsthand knowledge should know at least that Borei II has 16 Bulavas.
    Firsthand knowledge of the Wiki page for Borei class Razz
    Literally there is nothing not already widely public in that text & the failure to update the missile count is just laughable fail.

    Probably this is a tie-in to the recent UK propaganda bit about 'Yasen-A' supposedly hanging around Faslane Rolling Eyes & which had a fairly prominent mention of Borei-A for no good reason.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:53 am

    The scary thing is that loyal readers and patriotic americans will believe this shit and think... crap... by 2024 the Russians might have nuclear weapons that can reach US cities... oh... no... now when the next elections come up and one of the candidates says they want to reduce the war budget... how will they react?

    Surely they need to increase the budget to deal with this potential new threat from Russia... america cannot be left vulnerable to Russian nuclear attack... it is just unamerican!

    Borei will never have 20 launch tubes... it is simply not going to happen... don't they understand the concept of "all your eggs in one basket"?

    Of course with belligerent Trump in charge, with the potential for crazy hilary or some replicant that wants to show the democrats are harder on Russia than trump was, then I guess there will be no replacement for the new start treaty and they might have super SSBNs with 30 SLBMs per boat, but I suspect it would be rather more likely they just build more boats and some SLBM barges they can tow around with nuclear icebreakers...

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:09 am

    With Bulava SLBM testing over, they could return D. Donskoi SSBN to the fleet with its 20 tubes; to stay in SALT, they can deactivate/convert 1/2 older Deltas. Icebreakers r needed to help surface ships on the NSR & expeditions to the Antarctic.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow on Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:53 pm

    Borei will never have 20 launch tubes... it is simply not going to happen... don't they understand the concept of "all your eggs in one basket"? wrote:

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:56 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    They are limited to international treaties and they already have the biggesr nuclear arsenal.

    16 launch tubes means they can build more borei so more plateforms so more survivability.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:48 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    Borei will never have 20 launch tubes... it is simply not going to happen... don't they understand the concept of "all your eggs in one basket"? wrote:

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    No, Russia needs larger and more uniform SSBN fleet which they are now finally getting with 6 more Borei-A ordered instead of waiting for 4 Borei-B.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:02 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    No, Russia needs larger and more uniform SSBN fleet which they are now finally getting with 6 more Borei-A ordered instead of waiting for 4 Borei-B.

    and light carrier with VSTOL fighters for air cover for their "workplaces" russia russia russia
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:02 pm

    14 Boreis with 16 missiles each = 224 missiles. 6 to 10 warheads on every missile = 1.344 to 2.240 warheads. This is more than allowed by the last START treaty.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:25 pm

    New start allows Russia 1550 deployed warheads...Boreis will have 14*16*6=1344 warheads. 6 each missile.


    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:47 pm

    Russia should withdraw from the START treaty. Well, but Putin is too weak for such a move.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza Yesterday at 2:06 am

    Arrow wrote:Russia should withdraw from the START treaty. Well, but Putin is too weak for such a move.

    Don't be stupid. That would just be red-meat to a Pentagon that would just LOVE to get a big budget increase to expand their strategic missiles forces. FFS, with the US still able to print money helter-skelter (and export their inflation to the world via demand for petrodollars) why the feck would Russia want to unilaterally give up the only tool that imposes limits of the US nuke inventory?????????????

    Consider also the geo-political backlash. Say goodbye to any hope of improving relations with the Cuck Nations of Occupied Europistan....

    Not sure what goes on in the minds of some people.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion Yesterday at 3:51 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:New start allows Russia 1550 deployed warheads...Boreis will have 14*16*6=1344 warheads. 6 each missile.
    Just like on the RN & probably USN subs on patrol, it's possible that not all tubes r filled with BMs: https://fas.org/nuke/guide/uk/slbm/d-5.htm

    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow Yesterday at 9:45 am

    Russia needs a minimum of 3,000 strategic warheads to annihilate the US and part of NATO in case of war. And how much will the pentagon have then is irrelevant. 3000 heads will scare them away enough. the reduction of nuclear weapons brings us closer to a nuclear conflict. Already Russia would not be able to destroy the entire US, not to mention NATO. After further reductions, the Russian nuclear deterrence will be very miserable. For this, the expansion of American ABM systems. Russia's further nuclear disarmament by Putin should smell of sabotage.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion Yesterday at 10:08 am

    No need to annihilate, just inflict unacceptable damage & destroy nuke sites. That's why Trump recently met Kim & both hope to meet again. The MAD doctrine time is over. Also precision non-nukes can substitute for tactical nukes.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow Yesterday at 10:40 am

    Yes MAD doctrine time is over. Now the possibility of using a nuclear weapon is increasing. Another START increases only the risk. Russia is currently unable to cover all military purposes in the US and where the NATO regime. On the other hand, the potential of the UK and France, 8 SSBN, comes to the USA.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB Yesterday at 11:05 am

    With Bulava SLBM testing over, they could return D. Donskoi SSBN to the fleet with its 20 tubes; to stay in SALT, they can deactivate/convert 1/2 older Deltas. Icebreakers r needed to help surface ships on the NSR & expeditions to the Antarctic.

    The DD didn't have 20 tubes able to launch Bulavas... it only had a couple as far as I am aware so the best you could hope for is to load 1 or 2 Bulavas and 18 or 19 Sinevas... and even then you would have to ask yourself why... it makes rather more sense to have a higher number of subs with slightly fewer missiles each than a couple of subs with huge numbers of missiles on each.

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    Much cheaper to develop 10,000km range cruise missiles and then make thousands.

    New start allows Russia 1550 deployed warheads...Boreis will have 14*16*6=1344 warheads. 6 each missile.

    SLBMs are usually counted as having something like 3 warheads no matter how many it actually has.

    Plus by the time they actually have 14 Boreis in service all the Deltas will be gone and the Akulas, and most of the first few Boreis will likely be converted into cruise missile carriers...

    Russia should withdraw from the START treaty. Well, but Putin is too weak for such a move.

    The New START treaty is useless but it is the only thing limiting the US in terms of nuclear weapons... Russia wont withdraw, but the US probably will end up not replacing it with anything... that is when the Russians can quietly build up their nuclear force numbers.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB Yesterday at 11:19 am

    No need to annihilate, just inflict unacceptable damage & destroy nuke sites. That's why Trump recently met Kim & both hope to meet again. The MAD doctrine time is over. Also precision non-nukes can substitute for tactical nukes.

    Yes MAD doctrine time is over. Now the possibility of using a nuclear weapon is increasing. Another START increases only the risk. Russia is currently unable to cover all military purposes in the US and where the NATO regime. On the other hand, the potential of the UK and France, 8 SSBN, comes to the USA.

    No, you are both wrong... MAD is the only thing holding the US back... it is only the threat of destruction of the US that stops them because otherwise war is good for their economy.

    Yes, the need is to kill people... Russia doesn't need to hit US ICBM silos, or their air bases... they will be empty by the time Russian weapons get there whether the US starts it or Russia does.

    The purpose of Russian strategic weapons is to clear a path to launch positions for their strategic bomber cruise missile carriers... so radar and airfields in north america are all targets as well as ABM systems and of course population centres.

    Precision guided weapons have replaced nukes in theatre war, but not strategic war... in strategic war you don't need to hit silo hatch covers because by the time your missiles reach there they will be empty... cruise missiles will be aimed at cities and food production areas, and water supplies... they are "you've killed us so we are going to kill you" weapons.

    With NATO bases so close to Russia there is a risk that a large conventional precision strike could take out enough systems to stop a retaliation strike to take place... a sort of pre-emptive decapitation, except that currently Russian air defences can probably cope with western cruise missiles and Russian forces are too strong to get away with it... a Russian nuclear strike would be launched as soon as it was clear that was what NATO was trying to do... and it becomes a case of use it before you lose it (ie ability to launch nuclear strike).

    For there to be a new Start agreement signed that replaces the existing agreement there will no doubt need to be a lot of changes... the US will want to include hypersonic missiles of course, and Russia will likely demand more missiles than the US because the US also has UK and French missiles on their team... not to mention the US controlled ABM system in Europe, in the US, on AEGIS class ships, and likely soon in Japan/South Korea.

    I rather suspect the Russians wont be under any illusions and will play rather more hard ball than they have done before.

    The whole point of START is to maintain MAD... and various weapons like Poseiden and the nuclear powered cruise missile should offer a guaranteed revenge for Russia no matter who starts what.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion Yesterday at 6:48 pm

    Even if deterrence fails, & without the now lost Soviet borders, Russia is so huge that even if invaded or bombed like in 1812, 1918 & 1941, it'll still have enough space & resources to finish the war on its terms. They had a plan to nuke huge invading Chinese armies on their territory.
    Boreis r important but not the only choice they have. With Kalibrs & Status-6, both US coasts with NPPs on them can be hit from subs.
    It'll be a lot worse than Chernobyl & Fukushima disasters combined.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 Yesterday at 9:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    SLBMs are usually counted as having something like 3 warheads no matter how many it actually has.

    This is outdated, Delta III's missiles had 3 warheads, but modern boats have more, see this count: https://armscontrol.org/factsheets/Russian-Strategic-Nuclear-Forces-Under-New-START

    GarryB wrote:
    The purpose of Russian strategic weapons is to clear a path to launch positions for their strategic bomber cruise missile carriers.

    Do you think it's probable for Russian ballistic missiles to break through European or US ABM shield? NORAD has been always pretty much impossible to penetrate for Russians.

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