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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:45 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:................

    Perhaps budget reasons are hurting them here?.


    I dunno, it would take a lot bigger economic crisis for Russia to stop building SSBN's, they are core component of the Navy. Entire Naval doctrine is designed around them. They will be building something but will it be whole new thing (Husky SSBN variant) or evolution of Borei?



    Project Canada wrote:
    Maybe because of the short comings of the Bulava? Perhaps they figured its better to wait until a more stable /reliable replacement for the Bulava is developed before building new class of ssbn


    If that were the case they would not be laying down new one in December. Besides Bulava problems are being ironed out. And even if they weren't Borei can be modified to carry something else, it's just launch tubes that would need tweaking.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:................

    Perhaps budget reasons are hurting them here?.


    I dunno, it would take a lot bigger economic crisis for Russia to stop building SSBN's, they are core component of the Navy. Entire Naval doctrine is designed around them. They will be building something but will it be whole new thing (Husky SSBN variant) or evolution of Borei?



    Project Canada wrote:
    Maybe because  of the short comings of the Bulava? Perhaps they figured its better to wait until a more stable /reliable replacement  for the Bulava is developed before building new class of ssbn


    If that were the case they would not be laying down new one in December. Besides Bulava problems are being ironed out. And even if they weren't Borei can be modified to carry something else, it's just launch tubes that would need tweaking.

    Do they even have a next gen submarine ready to go?. I doubt it or maybe they think they can get by with just eight borei's it's ether that or money problems.

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:26 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russia will start construction of eighth Borei-class submarine on December 23 — source

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/910145


    The Knyaz Pozharsky submarine will be the last of the eight Borei-class submarines and the fifth of the advanced Borei-A-class ones.

    So what do you guys think about this? Seems to me they are pulling out a bit early unless next thing is Borei-B...

    Makes a lot of sense to me, with all the new developments that were created from the Foundation of Advanced Studies, for a sub to take full advantage of the new developments, it would need to be designed from scratch. I suspect what they'll do is build smaller but more capable subs, which is a pattern that we are witnessing in Ru's surface ships. Take for example KRET's work on photonic computing, if you examine a modern SSBN, a large portion of it's space is dedicated to storing all the electronic sub systems. A modern SSBN with photonic computing subsystems would take up a small fraction of the space that the electronic equivalent would take (can easily be 1/10th the normal space), you could potentially see new subs that are 1/2-1/3 the normal size, but with the same fire power. Some added bonuses would be that those new smaller subs would need smaller propellers and less powerful propulsion systems, making them more silent, and they would also be cheaper as well as being quicker to produce and put in to service (especially if 3D printing plays a larger role).

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:31 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.

    Yasens already reached end of series, Husky is next to be built.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:38 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.

    Yasens already reached end of series, Husky is next to be built.

    Stopping after only eight hulls? they needed at least 12, money is becoming a factor it seems.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:57 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.

    Yasens already reached end of series, Husky is next to be built.

    Stopping after only eight hulls? they needed at least 12, money is becoming a factor it seems.

    Yasen dragged on since the 90's. It would have been 12 but like everything else they wasted a decade back in the golden Yeltsin era. Whole thing was also redesigned midway trough.

    It is supposed to be replaced anyway. Husky is next in line. If money were an issue with subs then they would not be working on Husky class.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:00 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.

    Yasens already reached end of series, Husky is next to be built.

    Stopping after only eight hulls? they needed at least 12, money is becoming a factor it seems.

    Yasen dragged on since the 90's. It would have been 12 but like everything else they wasted a decade back in the golden Yeltsin era.  Whole thing was also redesigned midway trough.

    It is supposed to be replaced anyway. Husky is next in line. If money were an issue with subs then they would not be working on Husky class.

    That was the first hull the other hulls are current day, I see no major reason to stop at 8 unless they REALLY needed the money for the Husky's which will be a very long time before we see one laid down.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:09 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.................

    That was the first hull the other hulls are current day, I see no major reason to stop at 8 unless they REALLY needed the money for the Husky's which will be a very long time before we see one laid down.

    I really don't think that they will spend next decade not building any nuke subs whatsoever. If that really is the case then there will definitely be huge noise over it because it would be massive event.

    We need to wait until we hear more news but if they really stop construction altogether there it will be huge, dare I say, scandal. Nuke subs are not frigates.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Austin on Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:26 am

    The sea component of the nuclear triad will be one of the priorities of the new state program of armaments - the Russian military-industrial complex
    02/12/2016 9:30:31
    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=434259

          
    Viña del Mar (Chile). December 2nd. Interfax-AVN - Development of sea-based strategic nuclear forces (SNF) will be one of the main points of the new state armament program (SAP) in the years 2018-2025, "Interfax-AVN" member of the board of the Military-Industrial Commission (VPK) Vladimir Pospelov.

           "By itself, the construction of naval strategic nuclear forces is a top priority and at the same time it organically drawn to the development of the entire fleet categories, types and branches of the Armed Forces, which provide the strategic nuclear forces." - V.Pospelov said.

           He said that we are talking about all the components of the Russian nuclear triad.

           "This also applies to ground strategic nuclear forces, and aviation This orbital grouping, and bringing combat control teams, and many other things that, ultimately, a single system comprehensively solve the problem." - V.Pospelov said, who heads the Council MIC board on shipbuilding.

           Proceeding from this logic, he said V.Pospelov, takes into account various proposals for specific projects of ships, supply vessels, aircraft, other military equipment, which is created in the interest of the development of the naval component of the strategic nuclear forces.

           He stressed that the Russian army entered the twenty-first century with the priorities of national security, that formed a little earlier.

           "It is definitely possible to say that today, first of all it is the strategic nuclear forces provide the global interests of Russia and several other countries of the world. US, UK, France, Germany and some other countries This is - an absolute element of stability on a global scale," - he said in .Pospelov.

           According to him, since the emergence of the nuclear triad development of its sea, air and land component is a priority in the "vёrstkah" SAP. "It was yesterday, is today, and I am sure, will continue in the foreseeable future is the priority that is guaranteed to ensure the protection of our national interests in any of the scenarios." - V.Pospelov said.

           Noting the effectiveness and powerful strategic nuclear forces, which are an essential element of strategic stability, the agency drew attention to the need to improve information support for automated control systems of marine component of the nuclear triad of state. ".. This applies, in particular, to ensure the stability of the combat groups of marine strategic nuclear forces This is the maritime component of general purpose forces and there are a number of other issues that will be emphasized in the new LG" - V.Pospelov said.

           Responding to questions about the financial security of the SAP - 2018-2025, he noted that participated in the formation of three state programs arms.

           "Financial assets never is never too much: no matter how much to offer - they always will learn Certain limitations are present today in our country, and in many other countries." - V.Pospelov said.

           As an example, he cited a number of heads of the Navy Latin American region, which spoke at the International Naval Exhibition "EKSPONAVAL 2016" in Chile.

           "They have a dilemma: they are the commanders of the Navy, we would like one, and countries leadership says it we can, and that - no starts selection options for the development of national Navy The main task here - to competently distribute those funds.. that they can give the state to most effectively achieve the goals set by the leadership of the country ", - said V.Pospelov.

           He stressed that the development of the Russian Navy for many years now goes to the "eye" in the vastness of the oceans, but today it is particularly relevant in view of the current geopolitical situation.

           "Not every country having serious navy, capable of entering the expanses of the oceans We objectively." Imprisoned "at the matter from the time of Peter the First, and always try to match - and the shipbuilding industry, and those federal executive bodies that are involved in . these tasks management of the Ministry of Defence, the leadership of the Military-industrial Commission clearly see and understand the challenges that exist today, and properly respond to them, "- said V.Pospelov.

           New LG spokesman said, takes into account all these factors. 



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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:10 am

    Russian Navy to Stop Production of Borei-Class Nuclear Subs - Deputy Commander

    SEVERODVINSK (Russia) (Sputnik) – The Russian Sevmash shipbuilder commenced on Friday production of the eighth 955A Borei-class submarine Knyaz Pozharsky, which will be the last one in the Project 955 series.

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201612231048913952-navy-russia-production/


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:38 am

    Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:27 am







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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GJ Flanker on Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:56 pm

    Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:34 pm

    GJ Flanker wrote:Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...

    Improved one have 20.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:01 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GJ Flanker wrote:Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...

    Improved one have 20.

    Natural result of the ABM systems is to increase the number of rockets and decrease the number of warheads.

    And of course increase the number of decoys : )

    Or just leave one MIRV bus with one warhead and full fuel, and manoeuvrer it like hell during full trajectory.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:16 pm

    Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    That makes my point clearer.

    8 x 16 = 128 tubes

    3 warheads per missile = 384 warheads

    6 warheads per missile = 768 warheads

    With 20 tubes it would be 460 and 920 respectively.

    With the introduction of rail based ICBMs I rather suspect the number of sub based and silo based missiles will decline...

    Natural result of the ABM systems is to increase the number of rockets and decrease the number of warheads.

    Very true, but would require the withdrawal from the new START treaty first...


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    That makes my point clearer.

    8 x 16 = 128 tubes

    3 warheads per missile = 384 warheads

    6 warheads per missile = 768 warheads

    With 20 tubes it would be 460 and 920 respectively.

    With the introduction of rail based ICBMs I rather suspect the number of sub based and silo based missiles will decline...

    Natural result of the ABM systems is to increase the number of rockets and decrease the number of warheads.

    Very true, but would require the withdrawal from the new START treaty first...

    Or they can make submarines to carry kalibr/ nuclear torpedoes.

    That is not strategical missile. : )


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  franco on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...

    In regards to the air element of the Triad, each Tu.95MS and Tu-160 bomber is counted as a single warhead only for START purposes. The Tu-22M3 is not counted as it's range is less then 5,000 kms.  The 955 SSBN also has 16 SLBM along with the 955A version.

    NOTE: actually just read that the first ship of the class only had 12 SLBM but it was 16 starting with the second ship. The number of MIRV's per SLBM would also depend on how powerful a warhead you were looking for, probably six 150 MT versus three - four 550 MT.


    Last edited by franco on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:06 pm

    Or they can make submarines to carry kalibr/ nuclear torpedoes.

    That is not strategical missile. : )

    There is a treaty for these weapons too. Oscar 2 subs carried nuclear P-700 but no more. US could equip it's Ohio with 154 nuclear Tomahawks too.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:28 pm

    By 2020, a fleet of eight Borei and Borei-A subs will be able to carry 148 R-30 Bulava missiles with a total of 1,480 guidance blocks, 100-150 kilotons each.

    A Borei-class submarine also has eight 533-mm forward torpedo tubes, nearly 40 torpedoes, missile-torpedoes and torpedo mines. It also carries autonomous sonar countermeasures devices.

    Borei’s sonar system allows for detecting enemy ships at a distance 50 percent farther than that of Virginia-class submarines of the United States Navy. This system is a complex of digital devices providing communications, acquisition and detection of targets and a range of auxiliary functions.

    A Borei-class submarine has a maximum depth of 480 meters. It carries a 90-days food supply for crew. As for its life-support systems, it can operate autonomously for decades. Its crew numbers 107 members.

    In comparison with a Borei and Borei-A submarines, the Borei-M (developed in 2011) submarine has increased stealth capabilities and advanced communications and weapons control systems. There is also a modernization plan for the entire Project 955.




    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201612251048981394-russia-borei-class-submarines/


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:00 pm

    franco wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...

    In regards to the air element of the Triad, each Tu.95MS and Tu-160 bomber is counted as a single warhead only for START purposes. The Tu-22M3 is not counted as it's range is less then 5,000 kms.  The 955 SSBN also has 16 SLBM along with the 955A version.

    NOTE: actually just read that the first ship of the class only had 12 SLBM but it was 16 starting with the second ship. The number of MIRV's per SLBM would also depend on how powerful a warhead you were looking for, probably six 150 MT versus three - four 550 MT.

    Incorrect information.
    All Boreis (including the first one) carry 16 SLBMs

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:19 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:

    Incorrect information.
    All Boreis (including the first one) carry 16 SLBMs

    No. Borei carry 16. Borei-A carry 20


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:31 pm

    George1 wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:

    Incorrect information.
    All Boreis (including the first one) carry 16 SLBMs

    No. Borei carry 16. Borei-A carry 20


    I am not talking about Borei-A.
    I am just correcting the wrong info that the lead ship has 12 rockets only.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:28 am

    Or they can make submarines to carry kalibr/ nuclear torpedoes.

    That is not strategical missile. : )

    The mission of an SSBN is to attack strategic targets... putting Kalibr on it would be like mounting a PKM machine gun on the sail... pointless.

    The number of MIRV's per SLBM would also depend on how powerful a warhead you were looking for, probably six 150 MT versus three - four 550 MT.

    SLBMs are city trashers... there is no reason for 150KT or 550MT.

    The different number of warheads is not commonly different power warheads... it is about how many decoys and penetration aids they carry... fewer warheads means more decoys etc.

    By 2020, a fleet of eight Borei and Borei-A subs will be able to carry 148 R-30 Bulava missiles with a total of 1,480 guidance blocks, 100-150 kilotons each.

    Which suggests 10 warheads per missile and therefore zero air launched nuclear armed missiles or land based ICBMs... which also suggests Russia will likely withdraw from the New START treaty just before it comes into effect... which they are entitled to do BTW.



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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Or they can make submarines to carry kalibr/ nuclear torpedoes.

    That is not strategical missile. : )

    The mission of an SSBN is to attack strategic targets... putting Kalibr on it would be like mounting a PKM machine gun on the sail... pointless.

    The number of MIRV's per SLBM would also depend on how powerful a warhead you were looking for, probably six 150 MT versus three - four 550 MT.

    SLBMs are city trashers... there is no reason for 150KT or 550MT.

    The different number of warheads is not commonly different power warheads... it is about how many decoys and penetration aids they carry... fewer warheads means more decoys etc.

    By 2020, a fleet of eight Borei and Borei-A subs will be able to carry 148 R-30 Bulava missiles with a total of 1,480 guidance blocks, 100-150 kilotons each.

    Which suggests 10 warheads per missile and therefore zero air launched nuclear armed missiles or land based ICBMs... which also suggests Russia will likely withdraw from the New START treaty just before it comes into effect... which they are entitled to do BTW.


    The biggest bomb ever made was 50 MT.

    The current strategic weapons are in the 500 000 ton TNT equivalent range.

    It is easy to find use of the SSBNs if russia cancel the new salt, but what those are for if it stay?

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