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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:48 am

    rambo54 wrote:not only the K-329 Severodvinsk but also the Borey class show different length on satellite pictures than specified. Try to measure these boats in Severodvinsk or Severomorsk or Zapadnaya Litsa in google earth. These boats are about 158m and not 170m!
    Any Ideas?

    I wonder why.. However I suspected that the satellite wasn't really on top of the sub.. Thus accidentally made "angled" image that distort measurement.
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    Post  rambo54 Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:38 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    rambo54 wrote:not only the K-329 Severodvinsk but also the Borey class show different length on satellite pictures than specified. Try to measure these boats in Severodvinsk or Severomorsk or Zapadnaya Litsa in google earth. These boats are about 158m and not 170m!
    Any Ideas?

    I wonder why.. However I suspected that the satellite wasn't really on top of the sub.. Thus accidentally made "angled" image that distort measurement.

    I don't think so. For example use the History layer in Severodvinsk and measure other ships next to the Boreys. You will see that they match more or less exactly their specifications. You only see significant mismatches for Borey and K-329 Severodvinsk!

    see what I mean:

    Project 955: Borei class SSBN - Page 12 Nerpichawxbi7a6o15

    Project 955: Borei class SSBN - Page 12 Nerpichadbm1hsvz7jqx


    Last edited by rambo54 on Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:33 am

    rambo54 wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    rambo54 wrote:not only the K-329 Severodvinsk but also the Borey class show different length on satellite pictures than specified. Try to measure these boats in Severodvinsk or Severomorsk or Zapadnaya Litsa in google earth. These boats are about 158m and not 170m!
    Any Ideas?

    I wonder why.. However I suspected that the satellite wasn't really on top of the sub.. Thus accidentally made "angled" image that distort measurement.

    I don't think so. For example use the History layer in Severodvinsk and measure other ships next to the Boreys. You will see that they match more or less exactly their specifications. You only see significant mismatches for Borey and K-329 Severodvinsk!

    see what I mean:

    It is normal for the real specifications of weapon systems, including their dimensions, to be different from their published values. That is a rule, actually.

    Take what is on the internet for example; very very few of the "non-obvious" specification details are correct, and I am being very very generous with my description of the situation.

    For more than a decade the published submerged displacement of the proekt 941 was being listed as 24000 tonnes to 27000 tonnes, including in all of the Jane's publications, while from the beginning a simple calculation would show that it was close to 50000 tonnes.

    I can recall that from the very beginning my calculations for Borej showed figures very similar to yours, and I didn't use satellite images; what I think I did was to add the length of a missile compartment to the length of a proekt 971.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:24 am

    rambo54 wrote:
    I don't think so. For example use the History layer in Severodvinsk and measure other ships next to the Boreys. You will see that they match more or less exactly their specifications. You only see significant mismatches for Borey and K-329 Severodvinsk!


    Yes.. i have checked it now... So basically Wikipedia and basically whoever quotes that 170 m figure is inaccurate.

    and this is better.

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-370.html

    This one is for Graney
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-372.html

    You can see in the Graney specs there are hmm three length figures from 119 to 139m

    Anyway can i ask where did you find the Graney ? coordinates and time stamp ?

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    Post  rambo54 Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:52 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    rambo54 wrote:
    I don't think so. For example use the History layer in Severodvinsk and measure other ships next to the Boreys. You will see that they match more or less exactly their specifications. You only see significant mismatches for Borey and K-329 Severodvinsk!


    Yes.. i have checked it now... So basically Wikipedia and basically whoever quotes that 170 m figure is inaccurate.

    and this is better.

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-370.html

    This one is for Graney
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-372.html

    You can see in the Graney specs there are hmm three length figures from 119 to 139m

    Anyway can i ask where did you find the Graney ? coordinates and time stamp ?


    Severodvinsk:
    64.578015° 39.814701° - 23 June 2010
    64.575185° 39.800798° - 30 July 2010
    64.575245° 39.800658° - 13 Aug 2011 + 21 Aug 2011
    64.575394° 39.800599° - 28 Aug 2012
    64.578223° 39.804305° - 9 May 2013
    64.575394° 39.800599° - 18 June 2013
    64.575984° 39.805111° - 10 Sept 2014

    Severomorsk
    69.095267° 33.414915° - 20 July 2014

    Have Fun

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    Post  jhelb Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:09 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:It is normal for the real specifications of weapon systems, including their dimensions, to be different from their published values. That is a rule, actually.

    Morpheus, in light of your comment I wanted to know that is it true that most Russian/Western torpedoes at least till the 50s had to run straight in the absence of guidance or homing?

    This also increase the chances of "fratricide" right? I read somewhere that during WW2 a number of Nazi U-Boats fell victim to their own torpedoes that they had fired.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:51 am

    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:It is normal for the real specifications of weapon systems, including their dimensions, to be different from their published values. That is a rule, actually.

    Morpheus, in light of your comment I wanted to know that is it true that most Russian/Western torpedoes at least till the 50s had to run straight  in the absence of guidance or homing?

    This also increase the chances of "fratricide" right? I read somewhere that during WW2 a number of Nazi U-Boats fell victim to their own torpedoes that they had fired.

    I assume when a guided/homing torpedo loses its target, one of several options is for it to be programmed to run directly to the targets last "projected" position.

    I have not seen any reliable data regarding torpedoes hitting the vessels that have fired them. Do you have any reliable information regarding these kind of situations?
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    Post  Viktor Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:11 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    Second Borei-class nuclear sub goes into service with Russian Navy — source
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    Post  GarryB Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:35 pm

    Even straight running torpedoes don't actually run straight... US torpedo tubes are in the middle of the vessel angled slightly outwards with the sonar array taking up the entire nose, which means even firing torpedoes at a target directly in front of a US sub the torpedo would have to travel in a curve to hit it.

    The Stingray was a US sub lost with all hands with very little information as to what happened... the leading theory was that a torpedo went live... standard procedure is to jettison such a weapon as it is unsafe and it is believed the torpedo ran on a great curve and came around and hit and sunk the sub.

    The sonar sensor on a torpedo is not as sensitive as the sensor in a sub so often even guided torpedoes would run for a period before attempting to detect the target and home in on it... running on a wide curve it is all together possible a homing torpedo could turn 180 degrees and get a lock on the launch vessel.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:07 pm

    Viktor wrote:Nice  thumbsup

    Second Borei-class nuclear sub goes into service with Russian Navy — source

    Interestingly, TASS are also quoting the length of a Borei as 170m. TASS journos using Wikipedia?.... pls say it isn't so....
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    Post  Vann7 Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:37 pm

    Unconfirmed information ,According to wikipedia. English version. 2 new Borei Submarine have been added in the total plan.. So that is 8 + 2 = 10 Borei Submarines .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borei-class_submarine#cite_note-paritet1-53

    http://www.militaryparitet.com/teletype/data/ic_teletype/13815/


    Will be nice if turn to be correct the sources .  

    At the moment apparently Russia have 12 nuclear ballistic submarines in service and US navy 18 ohio class.

    nice chart of Russian navy entire submarine fleet in active submarines.. including
    the 2 borei and 1 yasen in service. looking good..

    http://defendingrussia.ru/upload/images/ckeditor/5501a7a9bd289.jpg

    With 10 Borei submarines..and 5 Yasen class for 2020 to 2025.. and diesel electric subs..  and other overhauls here and there.. it will be a very decent projection of submarine power. This is not mentioning of course the surface warship fleet.
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    Post  jhelb Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:45 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    I have not seen any reliable data regarding torpedoes hitting the vessels that have fired them. Do you have any reliable information regarding these kind of situations?

    There were a number of instances of US and German torpedoes hitting the submarine that fired them. Of course the US & Germany did not disclose the full information.

    Be that as it may be here is a list of "circular runs" of torpedos

    http://www.subsowespac.org/the-patrol-zone/circular-torpedo-runs.shtml

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    Post  Viktor Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:12 pm

    10 new nuclear reactors ordered for Borei and Yassen class Very Happy

    Regional enterprises will supply 10 reactor units for "Boreas" and "Ash"
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    Post  cheesfactory Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:18 pm

    Today, you do not stop with good news thumbsup
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    Post  Viktor Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:37 pm

    cheesfactory wrote:Today, you do not stop with good news  thumbsup

    Im on yarly vacation for a few days so I have time now to scan the net for news. Very Happy
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    Post  jhelb Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:20 am

    Viktor wrote:10 new nuclear reactors ordered for Borei and Yassen class  Very Happy

    Regional enterprises will supply 10 reactor units for "Boreas" and "Ash"

    This is good news Viktor. Just one question. Will Borei & Yassen use the same nuclear reactor?
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:08 am

    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    I have not seen any reliable data regarding torpedoes hitting the vessels that have fired them. Do you have any reliable information regarding these kind of situations?

    There were a number of instances of US and German torpedoes hitting the submarine that fired them. Of course the US & Germany did not disclose the full information.

    Be that as it may be here is a list of "circular runs" of torpedos

    http://www.subsowespac.org/the-patrol-zone/circular-torpedo-runs.shtml


    Thanks, jhelb. I'll go through the document.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:37 pm

    This is the first time a nuclear strategic asset(borei) will outnumber the tactical one(yasen), hence less escorts than the escorted. If this happens the russian boomer fleet will become more vulnerable and reduce the conventional attack capability.

    A doomsday weapon SSBN is far less versatile and useful than an SSGN therefore having more boreis is a complete waste.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:23 pm

    Actually a strategic weapon is a deterrent... if you don't have that theatre weapons become meaningless.

    They can always make more SSGNs later but the priority is to ensure MAD... having 7 or 8 Yasens wont effect MAD.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually a strategic weapon is a deterrent... if you don't have that theatre weapons become meaningless.

    They can always make more SSGNs later but the priority is to ensure MAD... having 7 or 8 Yasens wont effect MAD.
    Given the anemic working shipyard capacity and building rate "later" will be too late.

    MAD has already been achieved a long time ago. The US didn't go nuclear on russia in the 90s when it was practically a sitting duck and their's even less a chance now. Now the US is somewhere between farting and outright shitting in it's pants just by the existance of the Topol-M, Yars, and soon Sarmat. By the time all 8 boreis come out the americans will be constantly wearing diapers.

    The SSBN fleet isn't russia's primary tool in it's triad anyway, so suddenly spending too much on it is gonna be useless. SSBNs are overrated anyway. They don't have an advantage over land based mobile ICBMs which have equal stealth and are much cheaper to boot, and neither have the geopolitical deterrence factor and muscle flexing versatility of strategic bombers. That is why IMHO Russia focusing on land based ICBMs and bombers is enough.

    The only reason the US relies so much on SSBNs is because it's ICBM and nuclear bomber fleet are obsolete aging immobile cold war dinosaurs. Russia doesn't have this problem therefore as I said spending massive amounts on a large SSBN fleet is superfluous.  

    Also having more MAD weapons is completely useless at countering NGO regime change, the principal threat Russia should be focusing on countering.

    Meanwhile having more yasens will increase massively Russia's carrier killing capability, and if the US's carriers are sunk it's already lost the war. That way if the need arises Russia can defeat NATO without causing a nuclear holocaust.  Yasen's are also far less vulnerable to enemy subs and  can do far more types of missions(special force extraction, minelaying, etc.).
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    Post  Cyberspec Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:29 am

    SSBN's are an insurance policy being the hardest to detect.

    Russian ones don't need to sail far to launch their missiles
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    Post  collegeboy16 Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:05 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Meanwhile having more yasens will increase massively Russia's carrier killing capability, and if the US's carriers are sunk it's already lost the war. That way if the need arises Russia can defeat NATO without causing a nuclear holocaust.  Yasen's are also far less vulnerable to enemy subs and  can do far more types of missions(special force extraction, minelaying, etc.).
    you just need better standoff weapons and surveillance systems to defeat carriers. updated rorsats and scramjet anti-ship missiles are just that and they are working on them atm. an oscar 2 should be plenty for such a role too- not to mention probably most suited, since it has the greatest missile capacity apart from SSBNs.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:28 am

    Cyberspec wrote:SSBN's are an insurance policy being the hardest to detect.

    Russian ones don't need to sail far to launch their missiles
    Russia is already insured for decades. Spending billions on a few more SSBNs won't change shit on the political decisions of the west. If only the funds allocated to the next 3 boreis were given to Rusnano and Roscosmos...

    But alas, the russian leadership seams to have become infected with the "bomber gap" mental desease, the same which made americans waste billions of $$$ to counter an mythical threat of an imminent soviet nuclear bomber attack, but this time it involves the ABM shield(legitimate concern) and supposed US SSBN imminent first strike(baloney)...
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:54 pm

    Actually I would say the opposite... 8 Boreis were in the budget and while they are not cheap they will allow the retirement of rather less capable SSBNs.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually I would say the opposite... 8 Boreis were in the budget and while they are not cheap they will allow the retirement of rather less capable SSBNs.
    What would've it been the problem with modernising the akulas to fire bulavas which would be much cheaper than building from scratch?

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