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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

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    zorobabel
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  zorobabel on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:35 pm

    From October:

    Revealed: Turkish helicopters violated Armenian airspace twice this week for 2-4 minutes. Excuse is "bad weather." http://t.co/SZ6Dbbmn1E

    Wow, Turkey really pissing on Putin's face, murdering Russians for doing exactly what they did.

    KoTeMoRe
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:35 pm

    Regular wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.
    Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.
    No.  No they are not usually.  Go to the airforce section. Su-34's, 24's, 27's ect all have variations and plenty of EW/ECM use.  R-27EM comes quite close to performance of the R-77 and already runored of R-77-1 been in production for years.
    Well, thanks for You too. I'll do some research before sleep. I hate flying and I kept ignoring jets all together.
    The things is Russia might not have all the bells and whistles in the theater, but I think it's time to ship them here.

    Why, there's enough bells and whistles in theatre for what is coming. Once you get those three poor souls out of there and bury them, the mission is still a success, without Turkish meddling and backstabbing there was ZERO problem for the bombing runs. I'd say this a clear and obvious evidence that Turkey is getting hurt from the Russian mission, so it will continue, with the usual suspects in mind. Obviously the Russians stepped on a sore thumb there, so more steppin'. But this time, no shortcuts. Maybe this will learn some nav discipline to Russian pilots, I mean if it was only that.


    GunshipDemocracy
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:37 pm

    Moscow warned Ankara about the "inevitable consequences" for the attack su-24

    http://tass.ru/politika/2468146


    Erdocunt:

    Turkish policy in 2012, made a statement regarding the incident with the downed aircraft. "A minor breach of the border cannot be a pretext for such an attack. The Turkish aircraft had a training flight, when checking the radars in the Eastern Mediterranean" — such statement was made by Erdogan (then Prime Minister) in 2012, after the Syrian military shot down the F-4 Phantom that had violated the airspace borders of Syria.

    Источник: http://politikus.ru/articles/63783-i-pochemu-ne-otvechat-nelzya.html
    Politikus.ru

    Militarov
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Militarov on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:40 pm

    Regular wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.
    Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.

    R73Ms entered production in late 90s and have been procured for RuAF since early 2000s in what numbers is questionable but they did and do obtain them, R27EA/EP have been obtained too, R77 was obtained in all variants apparently including -1 version lately. So its not like they still only have stocks of 30 years old USSR built missiles...many of them are probably even near expiration of their storage time.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:40 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

    I don't even...

    Go ahead. This is a forum for discussion, in the same way you may lack knowledge elsewhere, I may have missed AA-12 being widely and massively introduced in RuAF (or the active radar AA-10 we mentioned before). "I don't even" means nothing.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:42 pm

    [quote="Militarov"][quote="Regular"]
    KiloGolf wrote:[R73Ms entered production in late 90s and have been procured for RuAF since early 2000s in what numbers is questionable but they did and do obtain them, R27EA/EP have been obtained too, R77 was obtained in all variants apparently including -1 version lately. So its not like they still only have stocks of 30 years old USSR built missiles...many of them are probably even near expiration of their storage time.

    I have highlighted the bold part and I appreciate this answer.
    Thanks mate.

    PS. it is not uncommon to upgrade/rebuild missiles, ie fit new seekers on old stocks or add new propulsion (we do it in NATO e.g for AIM-9L or -P stock).

    Kadmos45
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Kadmos45 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:49 pm

    zorobabel wrote:From October:

    Revealed: Turkish helicopters violated Armenian airspace twice this week for 2-4 minutes. Excuse is "bad weather."

    Wow, Turkey really pissing on Putin's face, murdering Russians for doing exactly what they did.

    All of them should be downed.

    BTW. Strenghtening contingent in Armenia should be a priority, god know what those turkshytes will try next time.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Karl Haushofer on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:50 pm

    zorobabel wrote:From October:

    Revealed: Turkish helicopters violated Armenian airspace twice this week for 2-4 minutes. Excuse is "bad weather." http://t.co/SZ6Dbbmn1E

    Wow, Turkey really pissing on Putin's face, murdering Russians for doing exactly what they did.

    They probably did it because they figured that Russia will not retaliate.

    ultron
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  ultron on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:52 pm

    One of the pilots is alive? Any rescue attempt?

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Zivo on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:54 pm

    ultron wrote:One of the pilots is alive? Any rescue attempt?

    Both pilots are deceased.

    The story about Turkey working to rescue the pilots is Turkish propaganda.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:00 pm

    Zivo wrote:
    ultron wrote:One of the pilots is alive? Any rescue attempt?

    Both pilots are deceased.

    The story about Turkey working to rescue the pilots is Turkish propaganda.

    It's worse is a bald faced lie to cool down "international opinion" and try open a door to save their face. But alas, I don't know who dropped the ball going out there screaming they shot a "non-ID" plane, but that killed it. Plus the Camera guys filming and uploading their deed, wasn't going to help them either.

    So far the Turks have even managed to get NATO to try and put a mile between them and Turkey.

    sepheronx
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:03 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:[R73Ms entered production in late 90s and have been procured for RuAF since early 2000s in what numbers is questionable but they did and do obtain them, R27EA/EP have been obtained too, R77 was obtained in all variants apparently including -1 version lately. So its not like they still only have stocks of 30 years old USSR built missiles...many of them are probably even near expiration of their storage time.

    I have highlighted the bold part and I appreciate this answer.
    Thanks mate.

    PS. it is not uncommon to upgrade/rebuild missiles, ie fit new seekers on old stocks or add new propulsion (we do it in NATO e.g for AIM-9L or -P stock).

    Russia had to as R-77 was made in Ukraine and so they needed a newer missile without the PUkrainian's. That said, R-77-1 is Vympals (well, united missile corporations) rendition with newer technology. Things like Link 16 and all of that isn't anything special either as Russia has had comm system links between other aircrafts and air defense systems/radar for years. As example a pair of MiG-31's flying at distances of lets say 100km apart, and 1 sees something 300km away, the other mig-31 will be able to see it and attack it too from the link from the one mig-31. Such technology has existed for years and many newer jets have it. Recent example is apparently the Su-30SM that snuck up on the American F-16's and surprised them in Syria and then the F-16's turned around. They didn't use their radar (Su-30SM) but relied on other radar systems to be able to track them. At least that is the claims I have heard.

    ShahryarHedayatiSHBA
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  ShahryarHedayatiSHBA on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:07 pm


    The Turks have no idea what they just started LOL.

    The Russians are very patient people. They'll find the right moment to deliver a huge blow to Turkey.

    Twisted Evil

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:11 pm

    Kadmos45 wrote:It doesn't matter what USSR did or didn't back in the 70's or 80's, we've got late november 2015,situation is different now and Russia response will be what Putin commands good or bad.

    Whether the response wil be weak or strong, it will have nothing to do with ancient geopolitical situation.

    This^^^

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:15 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Russia had to as R-77 was made in Ukraine and so they needed a newer missile without the PUkrainian's.  That said, R-77-1 is Vympals (well, united missile corporations) rendition with newer technology.  Things like Link 16 and all of that isn't anything special either as Russia has had comm system links between other aircrafts and air defense systems/radar for years.  As example a pair of MiG-31's flying at distances of lets say 100km apart, and 1 sees something 300km away, the other mig-31 will be able to see it and attack it too from the link from the one mig-31.  Such technology has existed for years and many newer jets have it.  Recent example is apparently the Su-30SM that snuck up on the American F-16's and surprised them in Syria and then the F-16's turned around.  They didn't use their radar (Su-30SM) but relied on other radar systems to be able to track them.  At least that is the claims I have heard.

    From my old readings I am aware back in the day, PVO aircraft had their own datalink, long before we got crazy about it in NATO. In this case, in Syria, I feel it is imperative for Russia to deploy a full squadron of <whatever modern> and at least 3 A-50s, few tankers too, so as to have one airbone at all times. It would also help greatly to have their carrier around, right now its Su-33 seems to be badly needed, compared to the MiG-29K.

    If this turkish crime goes unanswered I predict they will escalate with something else, in few months.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

    ultron
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  ultron on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:17 pm

    IMO Russia should deploy ground forces and use artillery to batter the crap out of Qaeda. Smerch can shoot 90 km.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Firebird on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:18 pm

    britain news was appaling tonight.
    Look at these lies:-

    1)oh it was all an "accident" and the nice Turks gave "lots of warnings over 5mins".
    (Was this Su-24 able to fucking however or something?)
    2)Russia is bombing "really nice rebels"
    3)"Russia is being really unreasonable, stopping the partition of Syria and demanding it has a base in Tartus".

    Twats. Another place that needs a regime change!

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  zorobabel on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:19 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Russia had to as R-77 was made in Ukraine and so they needed a newer missile without the PUkrainian's.  That said, R-77-1 is Vympals (well, united missile corporations) rendition with newer technology.  Things like Link 16 and all of that isn't anything special either as Russia has had comm system links between other aircrafts and air defense systems/radar for years.  As example a pair of MiG-31's flying at distances of lets say 100km apart, and 1 sees something 300km away, the other mig-31 will be able to see it and attack it too from the link from the one mig-31.  Such technology has existed for years and many newer jets have it.  Recent example is apparently the Su-30SM that snuck up on the American F-16's and surprised them in Syria and then the F-16's turned around.  They didn't use their radar (Su-30SM) but relied on other radar systems to be able to track them.  At least that is the claims I have heard.

    From my old readings I am aware back in the day, PVO aircraft had their own datalink, long before we got crazy about it in NATO. In this case, in Syria, I feel it is imperative for Russia to deploy a full squadron of <whatever modern> and at least 3 A-50s, few tankers too, so as to have one airbone at all times. It would also help greatly to have their carrier around, right now the Su-33 seems to be badly needed.

    If this turkish crime goes unanswered I predict they will escalate with something else, in few months.
    I agree. Classic Erdogan.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Zivo on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:29 pm

    Turkey's statement to the UN. It'll piss you off.


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:33 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Russia had to as R-77 was made in Ukraine and so they needed a newer missile without the PUkrainian's.  That said, R-77-1 is Vympals (well, united missile corporations) rendition with newer technology.  Things like Link 16 and all of that isn't anything special either as Russia has had comm system links between other aircrafts and air defense systems/radar for years.  As example a pair of MiG-31's flying at distances of lets say 100km apart, and 1 sees something 300km away, the other mig-31 will be able to see it and attack it too from the link from the one mig-31.  Such technology has existed for years and many newer jets have it.  Recent example is apparently the Su-30SM that snuck up on the American F-16's and surprised them in Syria and then the F-16's turned around.  They didn't use their radar (Su-30SM) but relied on other radar systems to be able to track them.  At least that is the claims I have heard.

    From my old readings I am aware back in the day, PVO aircraft had their own datalink, long before we got crazy about it in NATO. In this case, in Syria, I feel it is imperative for Russia to deploy a full squadron of <whatever modern> and at least 3 A-50s, few tankers too, so as to have one airbone at all times. It would also help greatly to have their carrier around, right now its Su-33 seems to be badly needed, compared to the MiG-29K.

    If this turkish crime goes unanswered I predict they will escalate with something else, in few months.

    Lazslo/Eugen Datalink on Mig29A and then Lazslo/Topaz were indeed available, HACY was also available. Nothing special about the NATO Dl.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Firebird on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:39 pm

    Zivo wrote:Turkey's statement to the UN. It'll piss you off.


    My guess.
    He's been outed as number 2 in creating ISIS. (USA is number 1)
    Some of Europe wants to "ex communicate" Turdkey from the intl community and kill Terdogan.

    So this crap is a last gasp effort from the prick.
    Much like Sakhasvilli attacking Ru peacekeepers.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:40 pm

    Media learned about the absence of clear evidence of Ankara trespassing Su-24

    http://lenta.ru/news/2015/11/24/nato2/

    BigBiz of other place wrote:
    Info from some sources.
    Turkey didn't provide solid evidences of border violation at NATO's board meeting. Audio records have 2 warnings, not 10 as was firstly reported by Turkey.
    Some NATO members consider that the plane was shoot down over Syria.
    Jens Stoltenberg's announcement about the incident was his personal view, not coordinated with other members.
    http://lenta.ru/news/2015/11/24/nato2/

    Kadmos45
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Kadmos45 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:42 pm

    Zivo wrote:Turkey's statement to the UN. It'll piss you off.


    Bah, just letters on paper noone cares and noone believes. It's too late for those idiots anyway the glass is broken and they'll have hammer on their heads anyway.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  whir on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:42 pm

    Expect Hollande lecturing Putin in Moscow no less about international legality and all that jazz.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  zorobabel on Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:49 pm

    A perfect outcome for me:

    SAA control of all of western Syria. The expulsion of all Turkmen from nothern Latakia. The establishment of a Kurdish autonomous region stretching from Afrin to the Iraq border in the east ruled by the PYD (PKK friendly). Clandestine support the PKK. The establishment of permanent Russian bases throughout northern Syria within several kilometers of the Turkish border.

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