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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

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    OminousSpudd
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  OminousSpudd on Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:48 pm

    Solncepek wrote:
    Translation?

    After having slept on this, (barely) I think the most important step here is to take it carefully, but act decisively. I think it would be silly to assume Russia didn't already have a contingency plan in place for an event like this. Given how carefully that Su-24 was avoiding the Turkish border, they might of known that Turkey was getting antsy.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  VBCI on Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:50 pm

    You think NATO will retaliate if Russia attacks Turkey ?
    Nobody wants to fight for Turkey,they put themselves in problems,and if someone has to pay,it'll be them. No way we will fight for that country,they are the most useless NATO country we have. Even Estonia seems more relevant.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:53 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:When you build towers made of human skulls (literally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Tower)  you kinda get a reputation for being a shitty imperial master...

    Well, after a point you get tired of saying "I told you so..."

    And in Chios island, they massacred 75% of the population killed, enslaved or died of disease
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chios_massacre


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Zivo on Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:58 pm

    VBCI wrote:You think NATO will retaliate if Russia attacks Turkey ?
    Nobody wants to fight for Turkey,they put themselves in problems,and if someone has to pay,it'll be them. No way we will fight for that country,they are the most useless NATO country we have. Even Estonia seems more relevant.

    That's what's making me uneasy.

    This incident may or may not pass with direct retribution, but from now on any Turkish aircraft operating near Russian aircraft will be considered potential targets. On top of that, NATO isn't letting erdogan hide behind their skirts this time around.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:59 pm

    Neutrality wrote:What would happen if the Turks shot down a Russian jet 30 years ago, when the USSR was still alive and well?

    Pretty much nothing as if you imply the post-Andropov USSR.
    Pakistan (of all countries) was able to blast Soviet MiGs with no major trouble and using merely AIM-9s.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  arpakola on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:01 pm


    Neutrality
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Neutrality on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:01 pm

    Did anyone notice how Stoltenberg didn't express any condolences towards the killed pilots? They are literally acting as if Turkey came under attack and it was THEM who lost a jet.

    Heartless bastards. No morals and no values. At moments like this I hope hell exists and that Satan himself has an entire theme park ready for these animals.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:02 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The probability of hit of an AMRAAM is minuscule (close to zero), even with no EW present. The probability of hit of a Sidewinder is higher, and that of the 20 mm gun is much much higher.

    Why post this crap? blah, blah, blah


    Just correcting your posts.

    Taking out rage against the AMRAAM and posting incoherent drivel is not the way to go.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:06 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:What would happen if the Turks shot down a Russian jet 30 years ago, when the USSR was still alive and well?

    Pretty much nothing as if you imply the post-Andropov USSR.
    Pakistan (of all countries) was able to blast Soviet MiGs with no major trouble and using merely AIM-9s.

    One Soviet Su-25 actually. The MiG-23s were never shot down, only one damaged (and returned to base). They did shoot down several Afghan aircraft though.

    More relevant, what happened when Israel shot down five Soviet MiG-21s in 1970...not much.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:08 pm

    Just to point out here that about 80 of the F-16C/D fleet (~230) in TuAF service was paid for in the 90s by Gulf countries as supposed insurance against evil Saddam (after Desert Storm). So one of the reasons why their Air Force is so large is partially due to Gulf money.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Regular on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:08 pm

    I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:10 pm

    zg18 wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Not a chance in hell. This wasn't about airspace, nor is it about a Sukhoi a chopper and 3 soldiers/pilots. It's about Turkey trying to stop Russia from clearing the Syrian North from FSA. It's not exactly a week long feud, nor some BS about that. If the Pilots would have been returned safely and the search party was back flashing smiles, MAYBE the escalation would have been over three months later. Now, it's just planning time. Turkey is going down in Northern Syria. It's just the way things got right now. Short of and actual Turkish action in the ground there's no end to the Turkmen pain. Just because reasons.

    Agreed, Erdogan tried to provoke Putin into doing something that would provoke NATO response, Putin is way too experienced and smart to fall for such a ploy. Erdogan is alone and is losing in Syria.

    Erdogan can always try and stir up the comeuppance of the Turkmen into ZOMG genocide. From now on lesson learned, get right at the limit, bomb the shit out of the place, as in-distinctively as possible, as often as possible. If it Latakia till the border can be paved with dead bodies, then who cares. If you have to incinerated every living being in the area, who the hell cares.

    People who know this shit better than me are livid, they're all adamant that there was no logic in firing AIM120/AIM9 towards the SU-24 crossing the border. It's shooting a man in the back while he's not trespassing any more. French pilot, friend of mine, told me that even at 300 km/h he finds the 17 second crossing for 1.85km absolutely nonsensical. Why would the Russians go so slow over a place they cannot be. If anything they had finished bombing so they would have been flying at least twice that speed. At least. It doesn't make sense, unless the Turks are actually lying and the Russians Never actually crossed the line. If they did, and were going that slow, the missile should have hit them way closer to the Turkish border, not at almost 5 km from their exit point. 4/5 km = 4/5 seconds of flight. for the missile. And at 100m/s remember 17/seconds for 1.8 km = ~100m/s, so the Russians were out of Turkish airspace for 40 seconds (that simply doesn't add up with what was said or then this was a head on interception, which then would show that the Turks FIRED the missile while the SU was not in Turkish airspace any more.

    It's just murder.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:10 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:What would happen if the Turks shot down a Russian jet 30 years ago, when the USSR was still alive and well?

    Pretty much nothing as if you imply the post-Andropov USSR.
    Pakistan (of all countries) was able to blast Soviet MiGs with no major trouble and using merely AIM-9s.

    One Soviet Su-25 actually. The MiG-23s were never shot down, only one damaged (and returned to base). They did shoot down several Afghan aircraft though.

    More relevant, what happened when Israel shot down five Soviet MiG-21s in 1970...not much.

    4 sub-standard MiG-21 with no internal gun vs. ultra-modern F-4E with gun (not even USAF had those operational in 1970), Israel claims 5.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:12 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:What would happen if the Turks shot down a Russian jet 30 years ago, when the USSR was still alive and well?

    Pretty much nothing as if you imply the post-Andropov USSR.
    Pakistan (of all countries) was able to blast Soviet MiGs with no major trouble and using merely AIM-9s.

    One Soviet Su-25 actually. The MiG-23s were never shot down, only one damaged (and returned to base). They did shoot down several Afghan aircraft though.

    More relevant, what happened when Israel shot down five Soviet MiG-21s in 1970...not much.

    Eeeh, Pakistan lost some of its own aircraft for that Su.

    The Israelis in 1970 were shooting at "egyptian" planes, Soviets "weren't there". Something they paid dear enough in 1973. So yeah you want a Yom Kipur for Turkey?

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Militarov on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:13 pm


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:15 pm

    Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:19 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    Yeap, welcome to the happy family of NATO. Mad
    This is the last time our Mirage 2000 shot one of them down (F-16D), the co-pilot was killed (his name was Erdogan).




    this was a year later, lots of tension back then


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

    sepheronx
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:21 pm

    Wow.

    Modern r-27's, Russian and made with active radar as well.  Take a gander buddy before spewing your horseshit.  R-27EA.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Regular on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:21 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.
    Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Kadmos45 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:23 pm

    It doesn't matter what USSR did or didn't back in the 70's or 80's, we've got late november 2015,situation is different now and Russia response will be what Putin commands good or bad.

    Whether the response wil be weak or strong, it will have nothing to do with ancient geopolitical situation.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:25 pm

    Regular wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.
    Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.
    No.  No they are not usually.  Go to the airforce section. Su-34's, 24's, 27's ect all have variations and plenty of EW/ECM use.  R-27EM comes quite close to performance of the R-77 and already runored of R-77-1 been in production for years.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  OminousSpudd on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:28 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.

    I don't even...

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Regular on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:31 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.
    Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.
    No.  No they are not usually.  Go to the airforce section. Su-34's, 24's, 27's ect all have variations and plenty of EW/ECM use.  R-27EM comes quite close to performance of the R-77 and already runored of R-77-1 been in production for years.
    Well, thanks for You too. I'll do some research before sleep. I hate flying and I kept ignoring jets all together.
    The thing is Russia might not have all the bells and whistles in the theater, but I think it's time to ship them here.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  Militarov on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:32 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:I'm not really into aviation, but how does Russia compare to ECM and AA capability? Is R-77 comparable to AMRAMM?

    The AIM-120C (C5 or C7) combined with what they Turks have (i.e. Link 16 on F-16C/D, ground and AEW&C Wedgetail) is better than anything Russians have operational. One generation ahead actually.

    There is no AA-12 in broad RuAF service (if at all), they are stuck with old, possibly Ukrainian-made AA-10 which at best can be compared to AIM-7E/F.
    Thanks mate. As far as I understand Russians are naked when it comes to ECM too.
    No.  No they are not usually.  Go to the airforce section. Su-34's, 24's, 27's ect all have variations and plenty of EW/ECM use.  R-27EM comes quite close to performance of the R-77 and already runored of R-77-1 been in production for years.

    R77-1 has been spotted on MiG31BMs few months ago.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria #5

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:33 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Wow.

    Modern r-27's, Russian and made with active radar as well.  Take a gander buddy before spewing your horseshit.  R-27EA.

    No, I don't think that's a widespread missile among RuAF units, contrary to AMRAAM in TuAF service. If it is, post us some links about numbers procured and units operating it. I would like to learn more on that. Granted anything going into the hotspot of SYria will have it. But still the entire missile design belongs to a different generation than the AMRAAM. Hence the AA-12 development, which is troubled nevertheless.

    Also, take a big step back and control yourself, with the foul language posturing.


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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