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    Russia–Serbia Partnership

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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:41 am

    flamming_python wrote:I don't understand why Serbia wants to defend such atrocities anyway. It was perpetrated by the Bosnian Serbs and the criminals that led them.

    That doesn't mean that there weren't criminals and atrocities on the other sides either; but that has nothing to do with recognizing Srebrenica as a mass-warcrime.


    Just proves my assertion at the other topic that you have no fuking idea about history....even about events that happened 20 years ago, let alone anything older
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:07 am

    PapaDragon wrote:It was UN protected staging zone for jihadist war criminals

    Surely you can't believe that? What about all those refugees that went there?

    What about all the desperate people who surrounded the UN General when he visited the city?
    I mean I'm sure it was organized by the Bosniak fighters but why would civilians go along with it if they really didn't feel a threat?

    After years of slaughter ignored by UN and perpetrated by jihadist who operated from that  "refugee ghetto for Muslim Bosnians" (  lol1  ) vendetta was carried out against war criminals. "People" were fine, criminals were punished- you will notice that all corpses were adult males. There is a reason for that.

    You really believe all the people killed there were Jihadists?

    We gain a lot by getting to the truth and punishing all war criminals regardless of their nationality, religion, geopolitical sponsor or lack of one.

    That's what we should do.

    There was no such thing as "Bosnian country" until 1995 when it was proclaimed by USA. Nothing was divided, "Bosniaks" as you call them or more precisely Bosnian muslims were not victims, they were instigators of the genocidal religious and ethnic conflict that has roots in WW2.

    There was a Bosnian republic in Yugoslavia, it had its own votes in the Yugoslav council and so on.

    I don't think the Bosnian Muslims were instigators. The republic was controlled by a Muslim president and elite as I understand it; but the only thing they did in the beggining was reject a demand for federalization/confederalization; as pressed upon them by Milosevic and Tudman.

    Which in hindsight was a mistake; but it hardly counts as instigating a genocidal conflict.

    I mean it wasn't Serbia that was broken apart into an Albanian part, a Hungarian part, a Montenegran part, etc... (well, not then anyway)
    It was Bosnia that was divided up and all its citizens took up arms against each other; armed by neighbouring countries.

    And exiled and ethnically cleansed, predominantly Serbs. And where is justice for them? Or do they need to be of the right religion and ethnicity in order to be allowed to seek  justice?

    No of course not; however I maintain that the Bosniaks were the ones who were kicked out and ethnically cleansed the most.

    As I understand it; most of the Serb refugees were from Croatia - when the Croatians reconquered the Serbian-controlled areas and ethnically cleansed most of them out of there.
    However this whole thing had its roots in Milosevic's ambitions in Croatia too; he encouraged Serbs to reject Croat authority (which they were eager to as the Croatians were flirting with ultra-nationalism and making heroes out of Nazi collaborators, to be fair), form their own republic and join Serbia; which they did - and were sent some forces to protect them but ultimately Milosevic just ended up starting what he couldn't finish - the Croats eventually armed themselves sufficiently to retake these territories and Serbia didn't help them.

    flamming_python wrote:............ where they starved to death.

    Urban legend. There were no starving campers in 90's wars, not even muslims were guilty of this. You need to lay off the CNN, Which ties into next item on the agenda:

    The Croatians did it when Tudman decided that he no longer needed the Bosniaks as allies, and took over Croat territories in Bosnia. The prisoners were Bosnian fighters that the Croats disarmed; they were kept in storage tanks and so on in atrocious conditions. There are videos that show these people - they look like Auschwitz survivors.

    About other camps I don't know.

    And back to square one. We are not defending that behavior. More than one side committed crimes in Srebrenica. We are making a stand against whitewashing crimes and protecting the perpetrators regardless of ethnicity and religion.

    I can understand your logic - veto their resolution because they will veto ours if we make one.

    But ultimately it leads to nothing good - an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind.

    I will give you same advice that I gave Monarchist because your behavior is identical ATM:
    Do not tell people on the other end of the planet what to do and how to live their lives since you are not from here and do not know anything about what happened here decades ago.

    I would never presume to do so - but this issue concerns Russia and its actions.

    My sympathies are with Serbia and Serbs and I know that everyone has forsaken them apart from us, that they are a convenient enemy, are being treated as if they're the only one with baggage in their closet while in fact everyone has blood on their hands (same treatment as Germany got in Versailles 1919), and that they in general are being used as a punching bag.

    But I think there are many other ways that Russia can help Serbia other than vetoing this resolution.
    For starters, trying to lobby for recognition of others crimes against Serbs, and coming up with its own resolutions.
    And also trying to move the ex-Yugoslav region towards reconcilliation; Russia burning bridges with other Balkan nations would not help anything.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:06 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    But I think there are many other ways that Russia can help Serbia other than vetoing this resolution.

    For starters, trying to lobby for recognition of others crimes against Serbs, and coming up with its own resolutions.
    And also trying to move the ex-Yugoslav region towards reconcilliation;

    Russia burning bridges with other Balkan nations would not help anything

    -Don't really see how

    -Any resolution by Russia will be automatically vetoed by USA & Co

    -I don't think that there are any bridges there to begin with (in other former YU republics that is....)


    Think of it this way:

    Serbia refused to impose sanctions on Russia. This would just be Russia returning the favour.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:15 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    But I think there are many other ways that Russia can help Serbia other than vetoing this resolution.

    For starters, trying to lobby for recognition of others crimes against Serbs, and coming up with its own resolutions.
    And also trying to move the ex-Yugoslav region towards reconcilliation;

    Russia burning bridges with other Balkan nations would not help anything

    -Don't really see how

    -Any resolution by Russia will be automatically vetoed by USA & Co

    -I don't think that there are any bridges there to begin with (in other former YU republics that is....)


    Think of it this way:

    Serbia refused to impose sanctions on Russia. This would just be Russia returning the favour.

    Like I said, I can see your logic - I just don't think your line of thinking would lead to any good results. Serbian diplomacy has really suffered if the best they can think of is fuming in the corner against the 'victors' (i.e. everyone else in the Balkans), backed up by its only friend - Russia, and snapping its jaws at every piece of bait that the Brits throw against it.

    They have you exactly where they want you; angry, cornered and willing to get into yet another row with your neighbours.

    Serbia needs to break its isolation in the Balkans. Go for the Judo approach - add to the energy of the blow that an opponent throws against you - and turn it against them.

    Instead of vetoing a resolution; a smarter idea would be to try and amend it, or propose a suite of resolutions addressing everyone's greviences.
    Even accepting the resolution as it is, would actually be a better move than outright vetoing it.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:20 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    But I think there are many other ways that Russia can help Serbia other than vetoing this resolution.

    For starters, trying to lobby for recognition of others crimes against Serbs, and coming up with its own resolutions.
    And also trying to move the ex-Yugoslav region towards reconcilliation;

    Russia burning bridges with other Balkan nations would not help anything

    -Don't really see how

    -Any resolution by Russia will be automatically vetoed by USA & Co

    -I don't think that there are any bridges there to begin with (in other former YU republics that is....)


    Think of it this way:

    Serbia refused to impose sanctions on Russia. This would just be Russia returning the favour.

    Like I said, I can see your logic - I just don't think your line of thinking would lead to any good results. Serbian diplomacy has really suffered if the best they can think of is fuming in the corner against the 'victors' (i.e. everyone else in the Balkans), backed up by its only friend - Russia, and snapping its jaws at every piece of bait that the Brits throw against it.

    They have you exactly where they want you; angry, cornered and willing to get into yet another row with your neighbours.

    Serbia needs to break its isolation in the Balkans. Go for the Judo approach - add to the energy of the blow that an opponent throws against you - and turn it against them.

    Instead of vetoing a resolution; a smarter idea would be to try and amend it, or propose a suite of resolutions addressing everyone's greviences.
    Even accepting the resolution as it is, would actually be a better move than outright vetoing it.

    Nobody is fuming or anything, we're actually pretty cool overall and our diplomacy is quite good lately.

    And we did try to amend the resolution, both by ourselves and with help of Russia. Got shafted both times. So if a freakin' Russia can't amend resolution what chance do we have of getting anything done in that environment?

    And we're not snapping at the bait. You think Brits came up with that resolution for humanitarian reasons? It was not Brit idea and it is not about humanitarianism. It is just the setup for what comes next. Like I said, it's a process.

    If anyone is PO'd it would be''victors'' because they no longer have the spotlight and are now stuck wallowing in their own excrement without anyone to bail them out.
    What is left for them to do? Blame Serbs for their problems, as usual.

    Did you miss Bosnian constant political and economic fiasco or exodus of asylum seekers from Kosovo? And that was just this year alone... hell, this trimester alone...
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:14 am

    Some background info on Naser Oric from a Russian source....this article was written after his second arrest and subsequent (as expected) release.

    http://www.vz.ru/world/2015/6/19/751557.html

    oh well...sorry PD, you're just gonna have to try harder to 'reconsile' Very Happy Cool


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:14 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Some background info on Naser Oric from a Russian source....this article was written after his second arrest and subsequent (as expected) release.

    http://www.vz.ru/world/2015/6/19/751557.html

    oh well...sorry PD, you're just gonna have to try harder to 'reconsile'  Very Happy  Cool

    Tell me about it lol1 lol1

    This why I avoid Balkan treads, there is always some Balkan-Noob  like FP around who needs whole story told from the start...and it started freakin' century ago!
    It's just too much work cry

    And I didn't even want to read this tread, I was going for my usual Ukraine link one row above on homepage... damn touchscreens angry
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    zepia

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  zepia on Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:11 pm

    Russia Vetoes UNSC Resolution on Srebrenica Massacre

    Russia vetoed a draft resolution in the UN Security Council on Wednesday that condemns the 1995 killings in the Bosnian town of Srebrenica as genocide.

    War veterans from the Balkan war of the 1990's stand near a memorial at the memorial center Potocari, near Srebrenica, 150 kms northeast of Sarajevo, Bosnia

    Ten of the Security Council's 15 members voted in favor of the document, while four, including China, abstained.

    The current UNSC draft resolution on Srebrenica is the sixth version of the British resolution on Srebrenica, with the first one submitted in June. The resolution refers to the events in Srebrenica as genocide, and states that a denial of the massacre as a genocide is hindering reconciliation.

    Earlier in June, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that the British draft resolution is written in the anti-Serb tone and incorrectly interprets, from a legal point of view, what happened in Srebrenica.

    In July 1995, according to UN estimates, over 8,000 Muslim men and boys were killed in the Bosnian city of Srebrenica after the city had been taken by units of the Army of Republika Srpska.

    International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) and the International Court of Justice have classified the massacre in Srebrenica as genocide. Serbia and the Bosnian Serbs do not deny the crime, but do not refer to them as genocide.

    On Sunday, the presidents of both the Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as Serbia asked Russia to veto the adoption of the resolution in the UN Security Council.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150708/1024374977.html#ixzz3fJSwp8lu
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:05 pm

    Russia Vetoes UNSC Resolution on Srebrenica Massacre

    I don't want to sound triumphant but I'm glad they did this....anyway, sounds like they had no choice
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:47 am

    In the same time that Serbs were licking Merkel's butt and praying to be accepted in EU.
    It's about time to have a serious leader once again, to stop licking the bloody West, regroup, get back their pride,
    and yeah give to those Sunni Albanians a good lesson.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:20 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:In the same time that Serbs were licking Merkel's butt and praying to be accepted in EU.
    It's about time to have a serious leader once again, to stop licking the bloody West, regroup, get back their pride,
    and yeah give to those Sunni Albanians a good lesson.

    Last time we had "serious leader" (  lol1  ) we ended on the brink of extinction (and most likely over it, time will tell but I wouldn't hold my breath)

    Butts are licked as a survival method unless you have better approach for a country that is completely isolated and surrounded by enemies on all sides.

    Regrouping usually involves licking some butts... then comes rest of the stuff you mentioned.

    Also, as our neighbors have shown us, pride is waaaaaaay overrated...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:56 pm

    UN resolution on Srebrenica designed to justify NATO bombings, to discredit Republika Srpska

    http://tass.ru/en/opinions/807496

    Author
    Tamara Zamyatina


    MOSCOW, July 9. /TASS/. Russia’s decision to veto the UN Security Council’s resolution on the 20th anniversary of tragic events in the Moslem enclave of Srebrenica is called upon to prevent a possible destabilization in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in the Balkans on the whole, a senior Russian expert on Slavonic studies told TASS on Thursday.

    In addition to this, the resolution drafted by Britain was rather biased and spotlighted just one party to the ethnic conflict in the former Yugoslavia or, to be more precise, the Serbs, Dr. Yelena Guskova, the director of the Center for Contemporary Balkan Crisis Studies at the Moscow-based Institute for Slavonic Studies told TASS.

    The UN Security Council failed to endorse the draft resolution on Srebrenica on Wednesday, as Russia, which is one of the council’s five permanent members, imposed a veto on it. The document qualified the death of about 8,000 male Bosnian Moslems in Srebrenica in July 1995 as genocide.

    Russia’s ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin said in this connection Russia was calling for an all-embracing investigation of criminal offences committed by members of all the ethnic communities during the civil war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He called into question the striving by a number of Western countries to pass Bosnian Moslems off as the main victims of the wars that rocked Yugoslavia from 1992 through 2001.

    "The Serbs suffered no less than others in that conflict and that’s why the international community has a fundamental task of attaining full reconciliation and bringing the situation in Bosnia back to normal," Churkin said.

    All in all, the Bosnian civil war of 1992 to 1995 carried away the lives of almost 100,000 people - Moslems, Serbs and Croats.

    Dr. Guskova recalled in this connection that internal law defines as genocide the actions aimed at a premeditated extermination of a nationality, as well as a racial, religious or any other historically formed cultural/ethnic group.

    "No doubt the army of Bosnia’s Serb Republic didn’t have any objective of this sort," she said. "Srebrenica isn’t Babiy Yar in Ukraine where the Nazi occupiers annihilated Jews, Romani and Soviet prisoners of war in 1941."

    "Quite possibly, a war crime was committed in Srebrenica but the fact is yet to be proven," Dr. Guskova said.

    "In 1995, Moslem militants made amassed sorties to the Serb-populated villages in the vicinity of Srebrenica and dozens of thousands of peaceful civilians were killed," she went on. "A memorial to these victims (of the Bosnian war - TASS) is located near the enclave, along with the memorial to the Moslems who fell then."

    "When Ratko Mladic, a former chief of staff of Republika Srpska’s army introduced his forces to Srebrenica, he evacuated all the women and children from the town and forwarded an organized column of Moslem soldiers to the city of Tuzla, also in Bosnia," Dr. Guskova recalled. "While the column was on the move, an exchange of fire between the sides erupted. Neither the number of those killed nor the place of their death is known precisely to this day and the lists of the victims haven’t been compiled since then."

    She did not rule out that the Moslem side had conscientiously overstated the number of victims in order to get the West’s interference in the Bosnian conflict.

    "Nonetheless, the International Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in The Hague stated in 2004 that the events in Srebrenica had been an act of genocide, even though it didn’t have weighty facts to prove the claim," Dr. Guskova said adding that if the Security Council had endorsed the resolution on Wednesday, there would have been no opportunity then to call the ‘genocide’ qualification into question.

    "This would have also ruled out any studies of or research into the events of twenty years ago," she said.

    Dr. Guskova believes that the British resolution was on the whole aimed to discredit Republika Srpska within Bosnia and to lay the groundwork for its elimination in the future.

    "The resolution made it possible to blame one ethnic group as a culprit of all the wars that occurred in the Balkans in the 1990’s and hence to justify NATO’s UN Security Council session actions of 1999 when the pact claimed it was pounding with bombs the guilty ones," she said.

    "The West is considering Bosnia’s Serb Republic as a Slavic element of the Balkans that is clinging to Russia," Dr. Guskova said in a summary. "This element is to be split or, much better, destroyed as a political factor, and the resolution would have made it possible to raise a possibility of a revision of the Dayton peace accords on Bosnia and Herzegovina, which in turn might entail elimination of the Serb Republic within it and the eventual hammering together of a monolith Bosnia and Herzegovina - something that Washington was dreaming of back in 1995."

    "Russia acted as an independent factor of unbiased treatment in international relations and this means really much for Slavic peoples in the Balkans," the expert said.

    http://tass.ru/en/opinions/807496
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:17 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:In the same time that Serbs were licking Merkel's butt and praying to be accepted in EU.
    It's about time to have a serious leader once again, to stop licking the bloody West, regroup, get back their pride,
    and yeah give to those Sunni Albanians a good lesson.

    Last time we had "serious leader" (  lol1  ) we ended on the brink of extinction (and most likely over it, time will tell but I wouldn't hold my breath)

    Butts are licked as a survival method unless you have better approach for a country that is completely isolated and surrounded by enemies on all sides.

    Regrouping usually involves licking some butts... then comes rest of the stuff you mentioned.

    Also, as our neighbors have shown us, pride is waaaaaaay overrated...


    I hope you know what you are doing (plural) but my gut feeling is that you don't.
    Two thirds of the Serbians want to live the american dream, to enter EU, to accept their fates this doesn't sound like regrouping to me, I wish I am wrong
    but Serbians still have much smaller fertility rates than the albanians and abortions skyrocket, these are not good signs.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:41 am

    PapaDragon wrote:UN resolution on Srebrenica designed to justify NATO bombings, to discredit Republika Srpska

    http://tass.ru/en/opinions/807496

    Author
    Tamara Zamyatina


    MOSCOW, July 9. /TASS/. Russia’s decision to veto the UN Security Council’s resolution on the 20th anniversary of tragic events in the Moslem enclave of Srebrenica is called upon to prevent a possible destabilization in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in the Balkans on the whole, a senior Russian expert on Slavonic studies told TASS on Thursday.

    In addition to this, the resolution drafted by Britain was rather biased and spotlighted just one party to the ethnic conflict in the former Yugoslavia or, to be more precise, the Serbs, Dr. Yelena Guskova, the director of the Center for Contemporary Balkan Crisis Studies at the Moscow-based Institute for Slavonic Studies told TASS.

    The UN Security Council failed to endorse the draft resolution on Srebrenica on Wednesday, as Russia, which is one of the council’s five permanent members, imposed a veto on it. The document qualified the death of about 8,000 male Bosnian Moslems in Srebrenica in July 1995 as genocide.

    Russia’s ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin said in this connection Russia was calling for an all-embracing investigation of criminal offences committed by members of all the ethnic communities during the civil war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He called into question the striving by a number of Western countries to pass Bosnian Moslems off as the main victims of the wars that rocked Yugoslavia from 1992 through 2001.

    "The Serbs suffered no less than others in that conflict and that’s why the international community has a fundamental task of attaining full reconciliation and bringing the situation in Bosnia back to normal," Churkin said.

    All in all, the Bosnian civil war of 1992 to 1995 carried away the lives of almost 100,000 people - Moslems, Serbs and Croats.

    Dr. Guskova recalled in this connection that internal law defines as genocide the actions aimed at a premeditated extermination of a nationality, as well as a racial, religious or any other historically formed cultural/ethnic group.

    "No doubt the army of Bosnia’s Serb Republic didn’t have any objective of this sort," she said. "Srebrenica isn’t Babiy Yar in Ukraine where the Nazi occupiers annihilated Jews, Romani and Soviet prisoners of war in 1941."

    "Quite possibly, a war crime was committed in Srebrenica but the fact is yet to be proven," Dr. Guskova said.

    "In 1995, Moslem militants made amassed sorties to the Serb-populated villages in the vicinity of Srebrenica and dozens of thousands of peaceful civilians were killed," she went on. "A memorial to these victims (of the Bosnian war - TASS) is located near the enclave, along with the memorial to the Moslems who fell then."

    "When Ratko Mladic, a former chief of staff of Republika Srpska’s army introduced his forces to Srebrenica, he evacuated all the women and children from the town and forwarded an organized column of Moslem soldiers to the city of Tuzla, also in Bosnia," Dr. Guskova recalled. "While the column was on the move, an exchange of fire between the sides erupted. Neither the number of those killed nor the place of their death is known precisely to this day and the lists of the victims haven’t been compiled since then."

    She did not rule out that the Moslem side had conscientiously overstated the number of victims in order to get the West’s interference in the Bosnian conflict.

    "Nonetheless, the International Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in The Hague stated in 2004 that the events in Srebrenica had been an act of genocide, even though it didn’t have weighty facts to prove the claim," Dr. Guskova said adding that if the Security Council had endorsed the resolution on Wednesday, there would have been no opportunity then to call the ‘genocide’ qualification into question.

    "This would have also ruled out any studies of or research into the events of twenty years ago," she said.

    Dr. Guskova believes that the British resolution was on the whole aimed to discredit Republika Srpska within Bosnia and to lay the groundwork for its elimination in the future.

    "The resolution made it possible to blame one ethnic group as a culprit of all the wars that occurred in the Balkans in the 1990’s and hence to justify NATO’s UN Security Council session actions of 1999 when the pact claimed it was pounding with bombs the guilty ones," she said.

    "The West is considering Bosnia’s Serb Republic as a Slavic element of the Balkans that is clinging to Russia," Dr. Guskova said in a summary. "This element is to be split or, much better, destroyed as a political factor, and the resolution would have made it possible to raise a possibility of a revision of the Dayton peace accords on Bosnia and Herzegovina, which in turn might entail elimination of the Serb Republic within it and the eventual hammering together of a monolith Bosnia and Herzegovina - something that Washington was dreaming of back in 1995."

    "Russia acted as an independent factor of unbiased treatment in international relations and this means really much for Slavic peoples in the Balkans," the expert said.

    http://tass.ru/en/opinions/807496

    It's a shame that Russia has decided to stick its nose in; I can understand everything but things like this won't help - the memory of events such as Srebrenica are becoming key issues for dirty political games.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:49 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:In the same time that Serbs were licking Merkel's butt and praying to be accepted in EU.
    It's about time to have a serious leader once again, to stop licking the bloody West, regroup, get back their pride,
    and yeah give to those Sunni Albanians a good lesson.

    Last time we had "serious leader" (  lol1  ) we ended on the brink of extinction (and most likely over it, time will tell but I wouldn't hold my breath)

    Butts are licked as a survival method unless you have better approach for a country that is completely isolated and surrounded by enemies on all sides.

    Regrouping usually involves licking some butts... then comes rest of the stuff you mentioned.

    Also, as our neighbors have shown us, pride is waaaaaaay overrated...


    I hope you know what you are doing (plural) but my gut feeling is that you don't.
    Two thirds of the Serbians want to live the american dream, to enter EU, to accept their fates this doesn't sound like regrouping to me, I wish I am wrong
    but Serbians still have much smaller fertility rates than the albanians and abortions skyrocket, these are not good signs.

    I hate quoting myself.... pirat

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2600p15-serbias-relations-with-eu-and-nato#104774


    This is a survey from April 2015:

    http://www.nspm.rs/istrazivanja-javnog-mnjenja/srbija-april-2015-istrazivanje-javnog-mnjenja.html



    Currently 80.6 % of Serbs are against NATO membership, while only 8,4% of Serbs are for joining NATO.

    On the other side, 61.1% favor an alliance with Russia, while 18,4% of Serbian respondents oppose it.



    As for fertility and abortions, it is pretty much region average, in fact, entire continent is pretty much screwed in that department (with some exeptions) so don't fret over someone else's problems...
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    ExBeobachter1987

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:45 am

    Serbia won't be able to join the EU without embracing NATO.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:01 pm

    It's a shame that Russia has decided to stick its nose in; I can understand everything but things like this won't help - the memory of events such as Srebrenica are becoming key issues for dirty political games.

    As a citizen of the world and in particular a person from a very small country thousands of kms from anything important... here in New Zealand, I am glad that Russia is prepared to stick their nose in when the west tries to rubber stamp stuff and make their own vision the vision set in stone on official international sounding documents.

    If Kosovo can have its own country why does bosnia have to remain three separate states united?

    And don't give me that moronic "Kosovo is a unique case" bullshit... every case is unique (and how dumb is "Not so Bright" Allbright for not realising this..). do you think her speech writers were laughing at her when they read that speech?


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    flamming_python

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    It's a shame that Russia has decided to stick its nose in; I can understand everything but things like this won't help - the memory of events such as Srebrenica are becoming key issues for dirty political games.

    As a citizen of the world and in particular a person from a very small country thousands of kms from anything important... here in New Zealand, I am glad that Russia is prepared to stick their nose in when the west tries to rubber stamp stuff and make their own vision the vision set in stone on official international sounding documents.

    If Kosovo can have its own country why does bosnia have to remain three separate states united?

    I think despite all the dark history there, every people should be able to decide whether to remain in Bosnia or not - there is no other way forward.
    Right now it's a country whose sovereignty is only nominal and whose central government has no power. It's effectively run and only held together by the EU. I'm hoping it can heal itself but perhaps it's better if everyone just decides to go their own way.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:09 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    It's a shame that Russia has decided to stick its nose in; I can understand everything but things like this won't help - the memory of events such as Srebrenica are becoming key issues for dirty political games.

    As a citizen of the world and in particular a person from a very small country thousands of kms from anything important... here in New Zealand, I am glad that Russia is prepared to stick their nose in when the west tries to rubber stamp stuff and make their own vision the vision set in stone on official international sounding documents.

    If Kosovo can have its own country why does bosnia have to remain three separate states united?

    I think despite all the dark history there, every people should be able to decide whether to remain in Bosnia or not - there is no other way forward.
    Right now it's a country whose sovereignty is only nominal and whose central government has no power. It's effectively run and only held together by the EU. I'm hoping it can heal itself but perhaps it's better if everyone just decides to go their own way.

    People SHOULD be able to decide whether to remain in Bosnia or not, but they are NOT ALLOWED TO.

    Right now Bosnia is not a country, just like it never was and never will be. It is artificial construct built with the sole purpose of erasing entire ethnic group from existence.

    Entire slaughter occurred because communists wanted to force two groups to coexist against their wishes and choice, to reward and appease one group for their crimes in previous conflict (WW2) and force other group into submission. They failed.

    Now USA and EU are trying to do exactly the same thing again. They will also fail and ensuing slaughter will make 90's look like Woodstock.

    Long and bloody war was fought to finally establish clear line of separation. Now they are trying to erase that line.

    USA and EU will not be able to protect their bloodthirtsy lapdogs forever and when they stop  paying attention justice will finally be served.

    Prince Darling

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  Prince Darling on Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:56 pm

    Vucic attacked in Srebrenica.

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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:09 pm

    Prince Darling wrote:Vucic attacked in Srebrenica.


    Vucic is the very definition of the Serbian 5th column if I ever seen one.

    Prince Darling

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  Prince Darling on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:16 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:Vucic attacked in Srebrenica.


    Vucic is the very definition of the Serbian 5th column if I ever seen one.

    please explain, he did the right thing and has gaing huge political capital from being attacked.

    most of the world leaders are sorry for Vucic now, they arent talking about evil serb genocide as always.

    sometimes you have to expose yourself a bit, to expose the fact that the other side also has some idiot extremists and that the situation isnt black and white.



    Previous "hardline" policies are just stupid as they get absolutely nothing done, but you have your "pride" (whatever that means)
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:30 pm

    Prince Darling wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:Vucic attacked in Srebrenica.


    Vucic is the very definition of the Serbian 5th column if I ever seen one.

    please explain, he did the right thing and has gaing huge political capital from being attacked.

    most of the world leaders are sorry for Vucic now, they arent talking about evil serb genocide as always.

    sometimes you have to expose yourself a bit, to expose the fact that the other side also has some idiot extremists and that the situation isnt black and white.



    Previous "hardline" policies are just stupid as they get absolutely nothing done, but you have your "pride" (whatever that means)

    The guy has a knack for regurgitating EU/NATO talking points, he even attacked the Turkish Stream, and supported the 'Croatian Stream'...a conveniently, expediently, and hastily assembled paper project if I ever heard of one....and even hiring warmonger Tony Blair to advise on Serbian economics for Christ's sake...a man who's even hated in his native UK, even by his Labor party constituency, with the blood of Serbian and Iraqi children on his grubby hands.

    Prince Darling

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  Prince Darling on Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:45 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:Vucic attacked in Srebrenica.


    Vucic is the very definition of the Serbian 5th column if I ever seen one.

    please explain, he did the right thing and has gaing huge political capital from being attacked.

    most of the world leaders are sorry for Vucic now, they arent talking about evil serb genocide as always.

    sometimes you have to expose yourself a bit, to expose the fact that the other side also has some idiot extremists and that the situation isnt black and white.



    Previous "hardline" policies are just stupid as they get absolutely nothing done, but you have your "pride" (whatever that means)

    The guy has a knack for regurgitating EU/NATO talking points, he even attacked the Turkish Stream, and supported the 'Croatian Stream'...a conveniently, expediently, and hastily assembled paper project if I ever heard of one....and even hiring warmonger Tony Blair to advise on Serbian economics for Christ's sake...a man who's even hated in his native UK, even by his Labor party constituency, with the blood of Serbian and Iraqi children on his grubby hands.

    that is probably because he is a top statesman and has a responsiblity to a lot of people, and doesnt have the privilage of anonymous internet armchair strong comments.

    he just figured out that you have to play by the rules of the EU if you are in europe, or you will be economically destroyed to third world lvl basically
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russia–Serbia Partnership

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:04 pm

    Prince Darling wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:Vucic attacked in Srebrenica.


    Vucic is the very definition of the Serbian 5th column if I ever seen one.

    please explain, he did the right thing and has gaing huge political capital from being attacked.

    most of the world leaders are sorry for Vucic now, they arent talking about evil serb genocide as always.

    sometimes you have to expose yourself a bit, to expose the fact that the other side also has some idiot extremists and that the situation isnt black and white.



    Previous "hardline" policies are just stupid as they get absolutely nothing done, but you have your "pride" (whatever that means)

    The guy has a knack for regurgitating EU/NATO talking points, he even attacked the Turkish Stream, and supported the 'Croatian Stream'...a conveniently, expediently, and hastily assembled paper project if I ever heard of one....and even hiring warmonger Tony Blair to advise on Serbian economics for Christ's sake...a man who's even hated in his native UK, even by his Labor party constituency, with the blood of Serbian and Iraqi children on his grubby hands.

    that is probably because he is a top statesman and has a responsiblity to a lot of people, and doesnt have the privilage of anonymous internet armchair strong comments.

    he just figured out that you have to play by the rules of the EU if you are in europe, or you will be economically destroyed to third world lvl basically

    "privilage of anonymous internet armchair strong comments"

    No need to resort to ad hominem attacks to express your opinion, that's quite petty and unnecessary on your part.

    As far as playing by the rules...it's a cop out if I ever heard one, there's plenty of Pro-West financial advisers in the world not named Tony Blair, and the Croatian Stream is a pure politically motivated paper project, even less promising than the Nabucco pipeline, a blantant example of a hastily politically assembled project.

    In fact claims of 'playing by the EU rules' is an abject joke, considering how the new president of Croatia (a long time kept creature of NATO) is already trying to start trouble in Northern Serbia with it's ethnic Hungarian population, of course with EU/US support. Even acting as a vassal won't prevent you from getting prepped with 'Vaseline'.

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