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    Ukrainian nation

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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:07 pm

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:everyone died in that famine not only ukranians  angry

    it was more of a crime to allow further ukrainisation (a artificial langouge and name to ethnical russian people) in the whole soviet period, basicaly supporting heretics, now we reap what we allowed to be sow


    Your mistake was really trying to make them into Slavs:

    http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/382/wolyn-galicja-podole-malopolska-wschodnia

    Ukrainians are Slavs to be specific Russians!
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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:19 pm

    How so? Ukrainians don't call themselves Russians and their language (the official one, based on the dialect of Gallicia) is incomprehensible to modern day Russian speakers.

    Both Ukrainians and Russians are descended from a common nation that existed in the Middle Ages and called themselves "Ruskye". One kept calling themselves that way but the other started calling themselves "Ukraintsy" - none of these nations is the other.

    It's like claiming that the Dutch are Germans because until 17th century they called themselves "Deutsch" (or Duits, Duitsch or whatever).
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:41 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:How so? Ukrainians don't call themselves Russians and their language (the official one, based on the dialect of Gallicia) is incomprehensible to modern day Russian speakers.

    Both Ukrainians and Russians are descended from a common nation that existed in the Middle Ages and called themselves "Ruskye". One kept calling themselves that way but the other started calling themselves "Ukraintsy" - none of these nations is the other.

    It's like claiming that the Dutch are Germans because until 17th century they called themselves "Deutsch" (or Duits, Duitsch or whatever).

    The so-called Ukrainian nationalism only emerged after the Krym war of 185x, and it was supported -if not artifically created- by the Western power in an attept to break Russia apart.

    There is Kievian Rus, there is Dniepr Cozak Hetmanate,... but there is no Ukrainian nation. If you desire a Ukrainian nation, its territories should be somewhere around Lviv only.

    Saying there is no seperated Ukrainian nation doesn't mean racial discrimination... but more about Russia and Ukraina belongs to the same nation, they are two branches of an united nation. And of course two branches should be treated equally.

    Off topic but actually I believe Germany and Austria should not be seperated, they are actually belong to the same nation. Two branches of the same nation, name it whatever you want.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:59 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:How so? Ukrainians don't call themselves Russians and their language (the official one, based on the dialect of Gallicia) is incomprehensible to modern day Russian speakers.

    Both Ukrainians and Russians are descended from a common nation that existed in the Middle Ages and called themselves "Ruskye". One kept calling themselves that way but the other started calling themselves "Ukraintsy" - none of these nations is the other.

    It's like claiming that the Dutch are Germans because until 17th century they called themselves "Deutsch" (or Duits, Duitsch or whatever).


    Please do not try educate others on russian matters on our language or history without a single understanding of words.

    They never called themselfs "Ukrainzye" that was the old russian word for ALL, regardless russian,pole, tartar or anyone else who lived at the BOARDER to the West. Ukraine means word by word At the boarder. They always were and always will be russians, indoctrinated with bullshit western Divide et impera propaganda to believe they are something else and idiots who have no idea about language or history like you fall for shit, but in germany there are enough idiots who believe Austrians are not germans but entirely seperate...
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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:17 pm

    Language is not a denominator of national identity in itself (though it may be)- it's the FEELING of who you are. So Austrians are not Germans. They have not been a parrt of Germany since the Middle Ages and in Early Modern era they had severe rivalry with Prussia and waged several wars with each other
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:34 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Language is not a denominator of national identity in itself (though it may be)- it's the FEELING of who you are. So Austrians are not Germans. They have not been a parrt of Germany since the Middle Ages and in Early Modern era they had severe rivalry with Prussia and waged several wars with each other

    Feeling? Maybe you are one of the retarded Gendermainstream idiots who can choose their national identiy by feeling and changing it like clothers whenever they "feel" for it?

    That has nothing to do with feelings otherwise all that hiphop caucasians would be niggers just because they dress and feel like the indoctrinated american nonsense subculture.

    Either you are something ethnically or you are not, nationality has absolutley zero play in here. You can be born in africa you will still be white german boy regardless of how you feel.

    The words are very revealing to this bullshit propaganda of ukrainians being something different, they are not, history proofs it, the culture proofs it, the language proofs it which ukrainian was non existent and is younger then i am, there never existed a factual ukrainian language in writing before, only a dialekt just like Bayrisch, Sächsisch, Fränkisch,Kölsch or any other german dialekts, which are not languages but simple dialekts usually spoken by peasants and today we call them Bauern.

    Austrians are germans, except the part of history and ethnically divergent Hungarian-austrian germans that are not directly german but also not non-german.

    It does not matter how many wars they had with prussia, Hessen,Sachsen,Bayaern had enough wars with Prussia that does not make Bavarians to non germans or Prussians to something else.

    History of Military conflicts have no freakish affect on ethnicities otherwise all China is different to each other and there are defacto no over bln chinese but just millions of different asians that maybe should claim their ancestorael dynasties as their national and ethnical "feeling" instead of their actual one...
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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:05 pm

    Nope! I am right of course -it's FEELINGS that define nationality - not language, descent or even culture - otherwise we will start making absurd claims that Canadians should not be independent but join The US instead - why not? Their cultures are the same and it takes an academic linguist just to distinguish their accents. But if you ask someone in Canada who they are, they will not tell you "I'm American"... they will say "I am Canadian"

    So if you are born as a German boy in Africa, then your national identity depends on YOU - in South AFrica there is a fairy significant group of people of mostly Dutch descent that call themselves "Afrikaneers" - they don't say they're Dutch or Englsh or Bantu - but simply Africans - so we have a new nation while previously there was none.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:15 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Nope! I am right of course -it's FEELINGS that define nationality - not language, descent or even culture - otherwise we will start making absurd claims that Canadians should not be independent but join The US instead  - why not? Their cultures are the same and it takes an academic linguist just to distinguish their accents. But if you ask someone in Canada who they are, they will not tell you "I'm American"... they will say "I am Canadian"

    So if you are born as a German boy in Africa, then your national identity depends on YOU - in South AFrica there is a fairy significant group of people of mostly Dutch descent that call themselves "Afrikaneers" - they don't say they're Dutch or Englsh or Bantu - but simply Africans - so we have a new nation while previously there was none.

    Just stop your stupidity. UKRAINIANS ARE RUSSIAN ETHNICS, no other ethnicity exists among them. Nationaility does not have any fucking effect on ETHNICITY, Austrians, Luxemburgs, Dutch, Swiss and Germany are all GERMAN by ethnicity. Nobody gives a shit about nationality, that does not make one different from the other, now spare me this bullshit, stop switching from ethnics to stupid nationality, it does not matter all ukraine is our russian soil and they are russians fooled over decades to believe to be ethnically something different and therefore deserve an own nation, same with poles that have been shit in their heads to believe they are more german than slavic.
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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:31 pm

    ...?
    I never met a Pole that felt German to any degree - they all feel Polish first and Slavic second (Slavs tend to stick to each other when they meet in foreign countries - llike on a holiday trip.

    Svyatoslavich

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:34 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Language is not a denominator of national identity in itself (though it may be)- it's the FEELING of who you are. So Austrians are not Germans. They have not been a parrt of Germany since the Middle Ages and in Early Modern era they had severe rivalry with Prussia and waged several wars with each other
    You cannot apply Western categories to Russian-Ukrainian relations and identities. Netherlands, Austria, Germany and all countries in Western Europe have a long history of separate states and national identity. Ukraine was never an independent state, it has always been a part of a bigger state (Kievan Rus) or empire (Muscovy Tsardom, Russian Empire). Some Western parts of Ukraine (Lvov- Lemberg) belonged to the Austrian empire, so no territory of what is nowadays known as "Ukraine" has been independent for many centuries. So you can't say that Ukrainians "feel" they are not Russians - and those who do feel, like in most of east and south Ukraine? Not all of them are opening fighting as in Donetsk and Lugansk, but millions more in Odessa, Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk surely would side with Russia.
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    Regular

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Regular on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:39 pm

    NationalRus wrote:everyone died in that famine not only ukranians  angry

    it was more of a crime to allow further ukrainisation (a artificial langouge and name to ethnical russian people) in the whole soviet period, basicaly supporting heretics, now we reap what we allowed to be sow

    Yes, It wasn't about killing Ukrainians, it was about exterminating CLASS of people, it was done before that in Russia and it was repeated in Ukraine after.
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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Regular on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:42 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:...?
    I never met a Pole that felt German to any degree - they all feel Polish first and Slavic second (Slavs tend to stick to each other when they meet in foreign countries - llike on a holiday trip.
    Yeah. Weird thing is that emigrant poles and russians get along pretty well. When You live abroad You tend to put all that shit like politics aside.
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:44 pm

    Regular wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:everyone died in that famine not only ukranians  angry

    it was more of a crime to allow further ukrainisation (a artificial langouge and name to ethnical russian people) in the whole soviet period, basicaly supporting heretics, now we reap what we allowed to be sow

    Yes, It wasn't about killing Ukrainians, it was about exterminating CLASS of people, it was done before that in Russia and it was repeated in Ukraine after.

    The cause of 1929 famine has nothing to do with racial discrimination. It is because of the incompetence of the local goverments and the conflicts between goverment and rich farmers.
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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:49 pm

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Language is not a denominator of national identity in itself (though it may be)- it's the FEELING of who you are. So Austrians are not Germans. They have not been a parrt of Germany since the Middle Ages and in Early Modern era they had severe rivalry with Prussia and waged several wars with each other
    You cannot apply Western categories to Russian-Ukrainian relations and identities. Netherlands, Austria, Germany and all countries in Western Europe have a long history of separate states and national identity. Ukraine was never an independent state, it has always been a part of a bigger state (Kievan Rus) or empire (Muscovy Tsardom, Russian Empire). Some Western parts of Ukraine (Lvov- Lemberg) belonged to the Austrian empire, so no territory of what is nowadays known as "Ukraine" has been independent for many centuries. So you can't say that Ukrainians "feel" they are not Russians - and those who do feel, like in most of east and south Ukraine? Not all of them are opening fighting as in Donetsk and Lugansk, but millions more in Odessa, Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk surely would side with Russia.
    Let's not confuse the Ukrainian nation with the territorial extent of modern day Ukrainian state. These are two completely different things.

    People of Russia also have a long history of living in a common state - but Ukrainians from Galicia don't have a long history of living in a single state with Russians from Moscow - you only had a brief period of Kievan Rus' when they lived alongside each other - but then the Kievan Rus' shattered into smaller states. Then the western parts of Kievan Rus' were absorbed by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (that was itself absorbed by Poland later on) and the eastern parts were absorbed by the Grand Duchy of Moscow. Ruthenians in the western part became Belarussians and Ukrainians. Those in the east became Russians.

    IF you're interested in linguistic developments (that followed tthe political developments) then here is a good tree:
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:07 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Let's not confuse the Ukrainian nation with the territorial extent of modern day Ukrainian state. These are two completely different things.

    I would like to ask, do you imply that the "ukrainian nation" is roughly centered somewhere around Lviv ? Question Idea Question
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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:14 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Let's not confuse the Ukrainian nation with the territorial extent of modern day Ukrainian state. These are two completely different things.

    I would like to ask, do you imply that the "ukrainian nation" is roughly centered somewhere around Lviv ? Question Idea Question
    Of course - why are you even asking? You have Ukrainians in western part of the country and Russians in the eastern part. Areas in the middle are mixed. The national identity corresponds well to linguistic map.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:24 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Let's not confuse the Ukrainian nation with the territorial extent of modern day Ukrainian state. These are two completely different things.

    I would like to ask, do you imply that the "ukrainian nation" is roughly centered somewhere around Lviv ? Question Idea Question
    Of course - why are you even asking? You have Ukrainians in western part of the country and Russians in the eastern part. Areas in the middle are mixed. The national identity corresponds well to linguistic map.

    You never were in ukraine, you never have listen to what language they are speaking, the big majority over 70-80% are speaking russian, every day and only the nazi scum or the SALA Ukraina fools are speaking in russian in private unless they have to speak to an audience they switch to ukrainian. Porky speaks only russian and only speaks ukrainian infront of audience, same with any other zionazi jew in ukraine dictating nazi scum around. All off them speak russian and switch to ukrainian to create the perception they are an own country and ethnicity. Only gay lyashko speaks ukrainian all the time i have seen him. It is an artificial language and nation, never existed before and soon will not exist anymore.
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    kvs

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  kvs on Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:48 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Let's not confuse the Ukrainian nation with the territorial extent of modern day Ukrainian state. These are two completely different things.

    I would like to ask, do you imply that the "ukrainian nation" is roughly centered somewhere around Lviv ? Question Idea Question
    Of course - why are you even asking? You have Ukrainians in western part of the country and Russians in the eastern part. Areas in the middle are mixed. The national identity corresponds well to linguistic map.

    The above map is BS. The "russification" of Kiev has been a long standing point of complaint by the Banderites.



    Kiev can be easily classed as Russian-speaking. Surzhik sounds more like Russian than Ukrainian to me. I know what
    western Ukrainian sounds like since that is half my family.

    Cucumber Khan

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:37 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Nope! I am right of course -it's FEELINGS that define nationality - not language, descent or even culture - otherwise we will start making absurd claims that Canadians should not be independent but join The US instead  - why not? Their cultures are the same and it takes an academic linguist just to distinguish their accents. But if you ask someone in Canada who they are, they will not tell you "I'm American"... they will say "I am Canadian"

    So if you are born as a German boy in Africa, then your national identity depends on YOU - in South AFrica there is a fairy significant group of people of mostly Dutch descent that call themselves "Afrikaneers" - they don't say they're Dutch or Englsh or Bantu - but simply Africans - so we have a new nation while previously there was none.

    Just stop your stupidity. UKRAINIANS ARE RUSSIAN ETHNICS, no other ethnicity exists among them. Nationaility does not have any fucking effect on ETHNICITY, Austrians, Luxemburgs, Dutch, Swiss and Germany are all GERMAN by ethnicity. Nobody gives a shit about nationality, that does not make one different from the other, now spare me this bullshit, stop switching from ethnics to stupid nationality, it does not matter all ukraine is our russian soil and they are russians fooled over decades to believe to be ethnically something different and therefore deserve an own nation, same with poles that have been shit in their heads to believe they are more german than slavic.

    Ask the ukrainians. They are the only ones to decide what "people" they are.

    Svyatoslavich

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:04 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:Ask the ukrainians. They are the only ones to decide what "people" they are.
    I think that a nationwide referendum on this would be the only way to bring peace to Ukraine: "Do you consider yourself Russian or Ukrainian? Do you want your region to be a subject of the Novorussian or the Ukrainian state?" Of course, it would mean a breakup of Ukraine in its current border, which is completely artificial by the way.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:58 pm

    Cucumber Khan wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Nope! I am right of course -it's FEELINGS that define nationality - not language, descent or even culture - otherwise we will start making absurd claims that Canadians should not be independent but join The US instead  - why not? Their cultures are the same and it takes an academic linguist just to distinguish their accents. But if you ask someone in Canada who they are, they will not tell you "I'm American"... they will say "I am Canadian"

    So if you are born as a German boy in Africa, then your national identity depends on YOU - in South AFrica there is a fairy significant group of people of mostly Dutch descent that call themselves "Afrikaneers" - they don't say they're Dutch or Englsh or Bantu - but simply Africans - so we have a new nation while previously there was none.

    Just stop your stupidity. UKRAINIANS ARE RUSSIAN ETHNICS, no other ethnicity exists among them. Nationaility does not have any fucking effect on ETHNICITY, Austrians, Luxemburgs, Dutch, Swiss and Germany are all GERMAN by ethnicity. Nobody gives a shit about nationality, that does not make one different from the other, now spare me this bullshit, stop switching from ethnics to stupid nationality, it does not matter all ukraine is our russian soil and they are russians fooled over decades to believe to be ethnically something different and therefore deserve an own nation, same with poles that have been shit in their heads to believe they are more german than slavic.

    Ask the ukrainians. They are the only ones to decide what "people" they are.

    After 23 years and 5 bln+++ USD of propaganda and indotrinating of ukrainians against russians that does not matter what they want, because that is based on propaganda not on facts and nobody else but russia has to decide for safety reasons of all russians (ukrainians) are all russians and will remain that no indotrination or propaganda will change that fact, nor any stupid people who call ukrainians an own ethnicity.
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    Odin of Ossetia

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:10 am

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    Walther von Oldenburg

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:21 am

    If Canadians can be a different nation than Americans despite speaking completely the same language and having completely the same culture, then I don't see how Ukrainians can't be distinct from Russians too. IF you argue that Ukrainians are Russians, then why you don't argue that Canadians are Americans and should join USA? -

    A question to all - when was the last time when the population of Galicia self-identified as "Russians"?
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    Werewolf

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    Ukrainian nation

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:57 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:If Canadians can be a different nation than Americans despite speaking completely the same language and having completely the same culture, then I don't see how Ukrainians can't be distinct from Russians too. IF you argue that Ukrainians are Russians, then why you don't argue that Canadians are Americans and should join USA? -

    A question to all - when was the last time when the population of Galicia self-identified as "Russians"?

    Has canada been ever part of US and then started an undemocratic process of splitting people apart? No. Is the use a homogen country filled with only anglo saxons? No! Ukraine is filled with russians with such a small portion of minorities like Tartars that it does not matter. The west has no rights to dictate Divide et impera tactics and balcanization of all countries that are not sucking ungle shames tiny cock.

    Because USA and Canada do not have one ethnicity it is just a colony of the british filled with first row mainly germans, anglo saxons and followed by spaniards/portuguese,french and then going to all other kinds of people. They never had a history, never had a direct and connected culture, their "culture" are the ramains they try to forget and destroy lie all in europe. Do not compare this colonies with any other country they are not natives and therefore do not share any attributes for comperision and they would kill each other happily due their own politics. I do not argue about ukrainians being russians, i tell you FACTS from REAL world and not the bullshit western Divide et impera bullshit of always inventing new ethnicities to justify conflicts and balkanizations, but your stupid little tiny brain already believes that austrians are not germans, you are lost cause beyond repair.

    ultron

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    Re: Ukrainian nation

    Post  ultron on Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:29 am

    Irrepairable. Ukraine will never join NATO because of disputed territory Crimea. US military bases will pop up all over Ukraine. Ukrainians will be brainwashed by Ukrainian state media to hate Russians forever. In about 100 years no Ukrainian will be able to speak Russian. Anyone who speaks Russian in Ukraine will be beaten to a bloody pulp by Right Sector.

    It'll be like between North Korea and South Korea, only a lot worse.

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