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    Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

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    brisas2k

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    Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  brisas2k on Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:58 am

    The loss of the socialist dream was a serious blow to the aspirations of all the oppressed people in the world.  They may not have a voice to say it, but you can notice the desperation in the capitalist world.  People are hopless.

    The chapter of troubles between Joseph B Tito and Stalin was just one of the long series of infights and disputes within the socialist camp.

    Socialist political leaders of today should strive really hard to provide honest answers as to why the marxist-leninist movement of yesterday opted for being enemies, rather than accepting their own realities and working with what they could work.

    Well, it is a dream i had once, that socialist could come together and work out solutions to the capitalist wold problems.  I am convinced humanity, sooner or later, will have to revisit Marx and Lenin again.

    the question is when, and what will those future marxists will say about socialist leaders.

    It is a rather delicate question. Everyone in the socialist camp is trying to justify their past.  True revolutionaries do not reconcile with the past, they use its understanding to create new possibilities for the future.

    I don't see socialist anywhere workin on a new political agenda.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:07 am

    Marxist economic theory is for the recycling bin and society becomes hell in the desperate attempt to make economy work. There is no way for this shit to EVER work. Change dream. Period.

    victor1985

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  victor1985 on Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:10 pm

    i'm romanian too. the problem is that we now know how is capitalism....and is all about money. no common sense, no educated people just animals that eat each other. the question is that despite we are animals is in our destiny to evolve. and what better evolution could be other than the animals that we are be more educated , more respectfull with each other , and more underssstanding about differences of mentality, intelligence , power of work, oportunities in life, and others. this is what socialism claims that are differences. and differences does not mean something bad , something that you should laugh about, they are just differences. moments of lazyness are moments of sadness , moments of lost of the faith , moments of desperation, moments when you stop believing in you and the world. lazyness is not about having fights whit work is about like i said , sadness. somethimes you are in the wrong place surrounded by the wrong people , with the wrong mentality for you. and is about some people doesn't accept differences. once upon a time someone asked me whit i don't eat the cake he bringed. i said : i don't like. and he got angry. equality mean understanding those differences. because without understanding those differences we are all like others or better said like the bosses want to be. i don't care about the life of donald trumph and i don't like his life. but the capitalist wanna all be like them with a boss upon us that is the most animalic from the money makers. and worship that boss like he is a ....realized person and we are not.....
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    GarryB

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    The divisions within the socialist camp were a terrible loss for humanity

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:07 am

    victor1985 wrote:capitalism....and is all about money. no common sense, no educated people just animals that eat each other.

    My vote to you...

    andalusia

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    Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  andalusia on Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:59 am

    Do people on this forum know how right wing many Americans are especially in the South?  Here in America, if any person has a concern for other people or points out income inequality you are either called a socialist or a communist by conservative libertarian people. It is used as a slur.   I want to know what is a socialist and what is a communist? I would like a good precise definition.  Moreover, does it irritate people that these terms are used to slur people?

    Some of you all lived in foreign countries that were socialist; how do you react to Americans calling people socialist or communist who want a more economically just society?  It is possible to be opposed to Communism and support a pragmatic free market economy that benefits all people.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:26 pm

    andalusia wrote:Do people on this forum know how right wing many Americans are especially in the South?  Here in America, if any person has a concern for other people or points out income inequality you are either called a socialist or a communist by conservative libertarian people. It is used as a slur.   I want to know what is a socialist and what is a communist? I would like a good precise definition.  Moreover, does it irritate people that these terms are used to slur people?

    Some of you all lived in foreign countries that were socialist; how do you react to Americans calling people socialist or communist who want a more economically just society?  It is possible to be opposed to Communism and support a pragmatic free market economy that benefits all people.

    I will make it clear how it actually is, this is not biased by any means, but exact the evidence that an american asks this question what Socialism and Communism means and why americans slur other people with it. US Americans are indoctrinated since their birth at least from the past 3 generations since the McCarthy era that russians are the evil that Communism/Socialism is worse than Nazis (National Socialists) of WW2.

    Communism is the basic to set the human equal with all priveleges to anyone and to base a state around humans and mainly around working class and not like in kleptocracies to set working class around kapital with the enclave of some oligarchs inside the capital bathing in money based on the work of the workin class.

    Communism however was never really implemented in a state, but some higher degree of Socialistic methods and dogmas have been used in Soviet Union and some other countries.

    Socialism is not far fetched from Communism, the same or similiar methods are currently applied in Canada, that the state covers education for everyone regardless of their family wealth or how poor it is, as long they are qualified for universities or that noone has to pay thousands to hundredthousands for breaking an arm and staying for 3 days in hospital like that is the case in US as long they have no higher paid insurgencies, free healthcare and since during Soviet Union the human was set as the middle point and the state tried to revolve around the citizen and not the other way around, health care was free for all and it was untill fall of USSR the highest in capabilities and quality than any other country has brought up.

    Most americans have no freaking idea what that means and were indoctrinated since 1945 that Soviets and Communism is worse than Hitlers Nazi party, they also use some dictators with inflated death tolls to proof their points without knowing shit about history or what communism is.

    There is a wonderful book by Ernest Mandel an Analysis of Communism through human history and he writes among the simpliest way to to explain communism on history of humans evolving from hunter and gatherer to a society with more jobs than this and lied down ground for evolving society,jobs and their state beyond of 200 man tribes.

    All humans were at some point a society formed of small tribes between 20-to 200 people and usually after reaching 200 or above they would split up to keep the tribes functioning and not depleting resources at their location and to keep their tribes at bay without to many rivaling for leadership or to have say in it. Till this date we have tribes made of hunter and gatherer, based on their environment poor of many resources like in Papua New Guinea.

    Such tribes of hunters and gatherer could only achieve growth and potential of their society and therefor develop new professions when they were not bound to hunt and gather all day and everyday to have free hands for other things. This can only be accomplished by "surplus product". So they developed their society over time from every family father and mother gather and hunt for their own to a society of communism where they hunt and gather enough to cover and feed their tribe for 2-5 days, giving them time in between to develope their society and that was the period where they would develope technologies and professions like do pottery, develope technics to make food preserved, also over bigger period of time to domesticate animals and argiculture which was the basis for modern civilisations. So this is the first use of communism among human documented in history. It is the concentration of resources (food,raw material and work/manpower) to keep together functioning and growing potential.

    Of course it is very simple due the times back then, but that is the principle of communism/socialism, which is not understood and mainly used to slur people without knowing what it is, due the indoctrinated definition of "dictatorship to kill all" and purely due the ignorance of people.

    Ernest Mendel also explains 7 forms of Communism that were at some point actually existing not for countries but for smaller regions,tribes or just small villages or enclaves of bigger countries. Among those there is also a form of communism bound to true and direct democracy where every village had a representative who must live among his village/city members so he is bound to them and the resources the city/village will recieve and also that he keeps his feet on the ground and does not try to double cross his fellows and tries to hort resources for himself.

    I hope it helpled you.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:16 am

    My observations from down here in New Zealand it seems to me that the main difference between Europe and the US is that the Europeans are more socialist, while the US seems to be anti big government and pro big business.

    Basically socialism in practical terms is where the state runs the health system and the education system and the prison system and a few other key industries like telecommunications and electricity supply. Sometimes even the rail network and other industries that are privatised in non socialist countries.

    Communism is where you don't get a vote and the government controls everything... almost a hive mentality where everything is centrally controlled and centrally planned.

    Of course there is scope for corruption in any system.

    Here in New Zealand we have something called ACC... accident compensation corporation, where if you have an accident which effects your ability to work you apply and if successful they will pay health costs and replace income till you are back at work. You don't have to sue anyone.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:31 am

    Communism is where you don't get a vote and the government controls everything... almost a hive mentality where everything is centrally controlled and centrally planned.

    That is not true, there are different forms of Communism and yes i mean true communism not such constructs like in USSR. Democracy does and can exist in communism and is also one of the mechanisms to keep corruption low.
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:19 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Communism is where you don't get a vote and the government controls everything... almost a hive mentality where everything is centrally controlled and centrally planned.

    That is not true, there are different forms of Communism and yes i mean true communism not such constructs like in USSR. Democracy does and can exist in communism and is also one of the mechanisms to keep corruption low.

    andalusia wrote:I want to know what is a socialist and what is a communist? I would like a good precise definition. Moreover, does it irritate people that these terms are used to slur people?

    According to Marx, communism and socialism are two level of the same process. That means first you have to build a socialist country and then after finishing that level you go up to communist one.

    Let's me state it clear that NO COUNTRY has ever reach the level of communism yet. No country has ever finished the building of socialist level yet.

    Even the USSR is NOT a Commie country. Its name is clear: Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republic.

    And in Vietnamese, at least, we do not use "Communist bloc" like the West. We use the term "Socialist bloc" to call ourselves.

    ========

    So what is the different between Socialist and Communist ?

    Accoring to our political education it should be:

    -------

    A socialist country needs to have GOOD DEMOCRACY, which is expected to provide wide access to most of the people in the country, and provide equal amount of political rights for the people.

    In a socialist country, the MEANS OF PRODUCTION is public-owned. But the MEANS OF SUBSISTENCE is not public-owned. That means, funds, investment, tools, machinery, farmlands... are public-owned. However, your money, your house, your food, your PC, your laptop, your watch, your clothes... these are your private properties, and nobody has the right to take them from you.

    In a socialist country, YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW. You are pay for exactly what you have countributed. You work hard that you have a luxurious life. If you do not work, you will not have anything.

    On my opinion that is a good condition for FAIR COMPETITION. Because in that environment everybody has the same starting point and same background.

    ------

    In a communist country, there is NO social class, NO class conflict. Everybody is equal so there is no goverment anymore.

    In a communist country, production power is expected to be developed into an ultimate level, therefore socials goods are extremely abundant. And everybody is expected to be workaholic, everybody is expected to love working. Therefore, the law is loose: you can just work as much as you like and eat as much as you desire.

    Social properties are COMPLETELY public-owned.

    Optimal development of each INDIVIDUAL is the basis for the goodness of the whole society.

    andalusia

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    benefits of free enterprise

    Post  andalusia on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:02 am

    http://political-economy.com/adam-smith-on-socialism

    http://campuses.fortbendisd.com/campuses/documents/Teacher/2007/teacher_20070112_0954.pdf

    http://smallbusiness.chron.com/enterprise-vs-command-economy-3889.html

    http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2013/11/liberals-you-must-reclaim-adam-smith.html

    andalusia

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    benefits of free enterprise

    Post  andalusia on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:03 am

    http://political-economy.com/adam-smith-on-socialism

    http://campuses.fortbendisd.com/campuses/documents/Teacher/2007/teacher_20070112_0954.pdf

    http://smallbusiness.chron.com/enterprise-vs-command-economy-3889.html

    http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2013/11/liberals-you-must-reclaim-adam-smith.html

    victor1985

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:20 pm

    Do you russians still believe in communism? I made a simple statistic about capitalism: in USA are 400 milion people. From those 399,99 have normal jobs whit normal income and no much hope that they get even a bit richer. The other 1% are rich have power are in congress do not do much work are not quite smart but are enough to make economic calculus and they clame the superiority of those who can make bussines over those they cant. In my opinion everybody has a limit of inteligence but that is normal and is nothing to blame. The americans proclame power of will as if you could be more smarter if you want. My point is how you are born that way you are living. You are stupid is not much you can do excepts work well done and honest who must be paid as equal to those are smart. Because is called work either you are a smart either you are a stupid.

    victor1985

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:22 pm

    Also capitalism has some complex methods in wich the money are concentrated in one hand. Hand of rich people.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:14 pm

    victor1985 wrote:Do you russians still believe in communism? I made a simple statistic about capitalism: in USA  are 400 milion people. From those 399,99 have normal jobs whit normal income and no much hope that they get even a bit richer. The other 1% are rich have power are in congress do not do much work are not quite smart but are enough to make economic calculus and they clame the superiority of those who can make bussines over those they cant. In my opinion everybody has a limit of inteligence but that is normal and is nothing to blame. The americans proclame power of will as if you could be more smarter if you want. My point is how you are born that way you are living. You are stupid is not much you can do excepts work well done and honest who must be paid as equal to those are smart. Because is called work either you are a smart either you are a stupid.
    The majority of russians (and also my people the Bulgarians) support more anticapitalist policies and experience a lot of nostalgia, but the Oligarchic capitalist and monarchist propaganda of the 90s has manipulated also the quite nationalist and conservative leaning , thus warping their minds into thinking that communism is "unpatriotic", a "american jewish plot"(themost illogical and idiotic faschist monarchist historical lie unfortunately parroted too much presently) , bourgeois "historians" working tirelessly  "exposing"(making up) supposed "crimes of communism" and portraying religious zealotry and monarchism as trendy, causing said population to be duped and vote for right wing parties whose agenda is completely against the class interests.

    victor1985

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:56 am

    Comunism had its anthem called "international" that is why capitalists called comunism "unpatriotic". Comunism was the solution after hundred of ywars of wars to try unify all nation if not in a perfect peace at least in a respect one to each other. Cause the alternative to this is a savage competition where the weaks are always beaten. We can call capitalism if they called comunism unpatriotic, as "colonialism" (the great empires who ruled over other countryes: spain, uk, portugal, france, germani, holland) that drives all into a slavery system. Democracy is freedom of speech but if you would try to make in USA a NGO called "doubts against basis of capitalism" you would be arrested. Here in romania the old comunism thinking was overwhelmed by westic propaganda and all youngs are totally indoctrinated. I would be interested on a clear study at capitalism complex maneuvers that make those who are rich to be richer and poor staying where they are. I mean study of economical maneuvers. After all i made a simple statistic upon america and it was seen that 99,99% of people have normal life and 1% have the power. Lets nominate simple names in USA congress and see what is their fortunes. They explain that the ones who know economy must be the leaders but also they say capitalism is a battle of own interest. Meaning that those congressmans would sustain own bussines and fortunes leaving for normal people things like buying stuff, working hard, watch tv and play games.

    victor1985

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:13 am

    And about monarchy....... sound like still believing(like in 1960) in kings and lords. Whit servants and taxes for staying on lords land and duty "from god" to work for them. Comunism had the idea that against try making a system in which we can be animals better stop being animals. The comunism said that for that a battle must be made cause capitalists, being more animalic wouldnt quite so easy. That is the battle of social classes firstly promovated by capitalists whit slavery system and adopted by comunists cause there was not a alternative to fight. Cause capitalist didnt want one. After all try to say to a oligarch that he has too much money for what he work, that he build his empire whit help of workers and would be nice to share his fortune whit ones that helped him, that all he do is concentrating fortunes in one hand. They say about competition but....... the ideas of bussines mans have value and hard work whit hand has also. If one dont know to make a job better well he is good to something else. If in his job is one that is better well that is how the nature leaved him so cant be called a "laizy", after all you quit do a work when you see your chances to make the thing tends to 0. And when in your head another thing take more importance.
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    George1

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:09 am

    Putin explains his remarks about Vladimir Lenin

    Putin said Lenin had "planted an atom bomb under the building called Russia and that bomb went off a while later"

    STAVROPOL, January 25. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin has explained why he believes that Vladimir Lenin was the one who had planted a powerful bomb under the basement of the country’s statehood.

    Speaking at an inter-regional forum of the All-Russia People’s Front Putin recalled that Lenin had a fundamental discussion with Stalin over the principles a future state should rest upon. Stalin’s ideas were rejected and the country was built on ideas implying the possibility of secession of constituent territories. "That right [to secession] was the delayed action mine planted under our statehood. This is what caused the country’s eventual breakup," Putin said.

    Earlier, Putin at a meeting of the presidential council on science and education dropped a rather caustic remark addressed to Lenin. He said Lenin had "planted an atom bomb under the building called Russia and that bomb went off a while later."

    Putin said that he himself had been a member of the Communist Party and an officer of the Soviet security service, the KGB, which some propagandists used to refer to as an armed outpost of the Communist Party. He said he had joined the Communist party not because it was a must.

    "I cannot say that I was a hardline advocate of the Communist ideology," he said. "Yet my attitude to all this was very delicate," Putin recalled, adding he had never been a career party functionary, but just a rank-and-file member. "In contrast to many functionaries I did not throw my membership card away or burn it in public. I still keep it at home."

    Putin acknowledged that he liked Communist and Socialist ideas "very much" and that he still liked them. What senior citizens still remember as the Moral Code of the Builder of Communism (a set of codified moral rules every Communist Party member in the Soviet Union was supposed to follow) looked very much like the Bible in terms of ideological content, but "the practical embodiment of these wonderful ideas in our country was very far from what the Utopian socialists had proclaimed."

    Putin recalled the murder of the royal family, priests and even servants of the royal family.

    "Why did they kill Dr. Botkin, why did they kill the servants, people of proletarian origin by and large? What for? Just for the sake of concealing a crime," Putin said. He also recalled the role of the Communist Party in World War I, when Russia as a result of power struggle "lost to the loser country."

    Putin was critical of the Soviet Union’s economic policies. At the same time he recognized that the planned economy managed to mobilize resources and address problems in the health service, in education and in the defense industry.

    He called for studying history without painting it white or black.

    "It should be studied carefully and analyzed objectively so as to avoid mistakes that were made in the past," he said.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/politics/852069
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:51 am

    Response from the Communists

    https://www.rt.com/politics/330126-putin-lenin-atomic-bomb/

    Russia’s Communist party has warned President Vladimir Putin that they “won’t forgive” him for comments he made concerning Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin’s concept of the Soviet state, comparing it to an “atomic bomb planted under Russia.”
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    George1

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:46 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Response from the Communists

    https://www.rt.com/politics/330126-putin-lenin-atomic-bomb/

    Russia’s Communist party has warned President Vladimir Putin that they “won’t forgive” him for comments he made concerning Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin’s concept of the Soviet state, comparing it to an “atomic bomb planted under Russia.”

    On the contrary he said he likes communist and socialist ideas
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:10 am

    My oh my

    http://my-disain.ru/ukraina-trebuet-ot-oon-zashhitit-v-i-lenina-ot-agressii-putina/?_utl_t=fb

    Google Translate wrote:Ukrainian delegation initiated a discussion in the UN Security Council the recent statements of Russian President Vladimir Putin to Lenin, who cast doubt on the Ukrainian border. According to the press service of the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry. - "During the discussion, the representative of Ukraine Vladlimir Elchenko said about the inadmissibility of attempts to senior management rewritten Russian history, questioning the activities of the founder of Ukraine Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, who gave the Ukrainian Republic of the Russian land", - said in the appeal. "

    Original text wrote:Украинская делегация инициировала обсуждение в Совете Безопасности ООН недавних высказываний президента России В. В. Путина по В. И. Ленину, которые ставят под сомнение границы Украины. Об этом сообщила пресс-служба украинского МИДа. — «В ходе обсуждения представитель Украины Владлимир Ельченко заявил о недопустимости попыток высшего руководства России переписать историю, подвергая сомнению деятельность основателя Украины Владимира Ильича Ленина, который подарил Украинской Республике русские земли», — говорится в обращении».
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:16 am

    Ukraine is pissing its pants now cause Putin's statement would indicate that the borders of Ukraine now is a total monstrosity.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Ideologies Thread: Communism, Socialism, Capitalism

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:22 pm

    http://seansrussiablog.org/2016/03/29/us-and-stalinist-prison-populations-revisited/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAWktuDM8XQ

    OUCH!

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