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    How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    max steel
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    Post  max steel Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:33 pm

    Sea-RAM has successfully engaged Mach 2.5, sea skimming targets multiple times. The SM-6 will be able to as well, just because it engaged a slow target IN THIS TEST, doesn't mean that it can't engage high speed low targets as well. That's why it's called "envelope stretching".


    Coyote is a more difficult target to 'defend against' vs. Yakhont/Brahmos complex. ESSM, SM-6 and RIM-116 RAM are all able to intercept, and Russian Yakhont, while fast, is bigger and slower target in comparison to Coyote target missile. ESSM tests at SDTS resulted in successful intercept against sea skimming Vandal (going Mach 2+) making 10G horizontal weaving maneuvers.

    Really, the notion that Yakhont (or Brahmos, again same thing) can just easily penetrate SM-2/ESSM screen without even a tough fight being put up against is totally laughable.

    Lastly, the 'stealth' characteristics on Brahmos is just marketing bs. It seems weapons developers nowadays will call anything under a 1m^2 RCS as "stealth", when in reality, there is no difference in RCS between Yakhont and Brahmos. By this statue, Tomahawk would arithmetically qualify as extremely invisible stealth missile.
    max steel
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    Post  max steel Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:45 pm

    mag the article you shared is from 2007 and usa made sm-6 in 2009 .
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:50 am

    Ugh, Max....

    First things first, "stealth" means nothing in regards to AShM's, at all. Sea-skimmers will not be detected by ship until they cross over the horizon, and "stealth" or not, they will ALWAYS be detected afterwards. Even aircraft radar systems can detect a 0.01 m2 target out to 90 or so km, the massive systems onboard ships are far more capable, and typically run at lower frequencies.

    What a surprise, a missile incepted something in a controlled test. Combat would be completely different, with no knowledge of an attack, and multiple missiles striking at once.

    Supersonic AShM's are practically immune to CIWS systems, have a better chance of surviving a AD attack, and have more energy behind them. The rather small warhead on Sea-RAM would have a hard time doing much to a missile with large amounts of energy behind it, AND late Soviet/Russian AShM's have basic armoring as well.

    And who knows how well an AD missile would perform engaging a target only a few meters over the sea.
    max steel
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    Post  max steel Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:06 am

    Cant help mike , I am always interested in Naval Scenario .

    What I posted above are not my comments i just copy pasted best pro-us comments to know what is the truth behind it are they true or what they are saying is refutable. Thats why I asked you all to share your thoughts.


    What about coyote and russian bal coastal missiles can they be intercepted ? Bal uses kh-35 klub i guess.
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:35 am

    max steel wrote:Cant help mike , I am always interested in Naval Scenario .

    What I posted above are not my comments i just copy pasted best pro-us comments to know what is the truth  behind it are they true or what they are saying is refutable. Thats why I asked you all to share your thoughts.

    What about coyote and russian bal coastal missiles can they be intercepted ? Bal uses kh-35 klub i guess.
    Oh, that explains everything.  Razz

    Sorry for the mistake. 

    Bal would be an easy intercept; it is somewhat large, and very slow, AShM. Supposedly it can jam defense systems but I find that hard to believe.
    max steel
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    Post  max steel Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:25 am

    Hard to believe what ? That it can be intercepted or it can jam the enemy defense ? I was watching Crimea's video and in the video it was claimed that bastion coastal missiles can shoot usa ddg. They figured out on radar that donald cook was approaching towards crimea bring it in tomahawk range but bastion already got a lock on donald cook and when donald cook realized it steered back in reverse towards romania with full speed.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:20 pm

    Hahaha.... yeah Coyote target missiles so accurately replicate Soviet anti Ship missiles they spent millions trying to get the Russians to sell them some Moskits for target practise. They were disappointed to be offered Kh-31s which were still enormously more powerful than anything they already had and were bought and tested with under the code name M-31, and they learned the Phalanx was useless against supersonic sea skimmers.

    BTW SEARAM is a tiny missile with a small warhead compared with a 7 ton Granit or 4.5 ton Sunburn coming in at more than mach 2.

    It will be even worse with a zircon coming in at mach 6.

    The point is that if you could just fly any old supersonic drone and claim your ship is safe from supersonic threats then how did the British lose so many ships in the Falklands... on paper the Sea wolf can kill 114mm artillery shells... didn't always stop much larger and slow exocets... for lots of reasons.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:00 pm

    The LRASM; the US's latest anti-ship cruise missile - is really just another way of trying to accomplish what the Soviets/Russians have tried to do with their own ASMs; namely to minimize the enemy's reaction time and the window of opportunity for engaging the missile.

    It's just that the Americans are attempting to do with stealth, while the Russians have attempted to do this with speed.

    The Russian missile will be detected earlier than the American missile, but it will cover that distance quicker than the American missile. Thus on balance the enemy may well have a similar reaction time in both cases.

    It's still too early to tell but overall I think the Russian approach holds more advantages. For two main reasons:
    a). It will be easier and cheaper in the future to increase missile speed than it will to make it drastically more stealthy (Russia is already working on a hypersonic missile)
    b). Speed affords other advantages that stealth does not (less time for enemy CIWS to do their work, greater kinetic energy at impact and also making it harder to break the missile apart at close ranges)
    max steel
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    Post  max steel Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:08 pm

    flamming_python wrote:The LRASM; the US's latest anti-ship cruise missile - is really just another way of trying to accomplish what the Soviets/Russians have tried to do with their own ASMs; namely to minimize the enemy's reaction time and the window of opportunity for engaging the missile.

    It's just that the Americans are attempting to do with stealth, while the Russians have attempted to do this with speed.

    The Russian missile will be detected earlier than the American missile, but it will cover that distance quicker than the American missile. Thus on balance the enemy may well have a similar reaction time in both cases.

    It's still too early to tell but overall I think the Russian approach holds more advantages. For two main reasons:
    a). It will be easier and cheaper in the future to increase missile speed than it will to make it drastically more stealthy (Russia is already working on a hypersonic missile)
    b). Speed affords other advantages that stealth does not (less time for enemy CIWS to do their work, greater kinetic energy at impact and also making it harder to break the missile apart at close ranges)


    LRASM isnt a problem for russian naval defenses i guess ? They made it to challenge china's navy who follows same ussr policy of sea denial . LRASM-B the supersonic project was terminated . Though LRASM-A has low RCS . I hope Russia has worked more on its sensor tech to improve the efficiency of interception .
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:53 am

    flamming_python wrote:The Russian missile will be detected earlier than the American missile, but it will cover that distance quicker than the American missile. Thus on balance the enemy may well have a similar reaction time in both cases.
    It's all about the horizon, my friend. No matter how some people will make it seem, the LRASM or or any supersonic AShM would be detected and identified.
    max steel
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    Post  max steel Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:59 am

    Those American supersonic coyotes(russian ripoffs) were successfully intercepted by French Navy though whereas US Navy failed and then they invested on a supersonic anti-ship device called Sea-Ram.


    Last edited by max steel on Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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