Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Share

    Austin

    Posts : 6699
    Points : 7096
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Austin on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:00 pm

    Mindstorm and Garry due to lack of time on my part I would try to respond in brief.

    We all know a ABM game is very complex and till date we also know that in real world situation an ABM system was never ever tested against decent MRBM forget higher level BM like IRBM and ICBM.

    The only time an ABM was consistently test against BM was in Operation Enduring Freedom ( Gulf War 2 ) where PAC-3 was very successful against Al Sumud class BM which was like 170 km range missile in FROG class.

    So we really do not have any historical evidence or real time employment of ABM system even in simplistic scenerio against IRBM , MRBM or ICBM kind of target.

    We all know that ABM system are tested against typical ICBM type target with success against it being promoted as a mature system but even in US hundred of scientist from National Science Foundation has proved that SM-3 test were all cooked up with missile not hitting the RV and devoid of basic decoys infact when ever basic decoys were deployed the system would fail.

    We also know from the same US studies that it was easy to fool ABM system using basic decoys like inflated baloon and basic metallic stuff.

    Even if such systems are deployed in numbers by US the easiest way to take it out is to jam or destroy its GBR since the present architeture of ABM system are so dependent on GBR ....once can easily take such radar out using cruise missile , Iskander or EM weapons or for that matter even ARM type missile , leaving a hole which ICBM can exploit.

    I am sure the same weakness that exist in US system would in many ways manifest in Russian ABM system like S-500 even though these are mobile system.

    Like i mentioned ABM is more of a political tool between Big Powers and less of effective system technically speaking against its intended target.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    ΑΒΜ Systems Arms Race

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:23 pm

    Even if such systems are deployed in numbers by US the easiest way to take it out is to jam or destroy its GBR since the present architeture of ABM system are so dependent on GBR ....once can easily take such radar out using cruise missile , Iskander or EM weapons or for that matter even ARM type missile , leaving a hole which ICBM can exploit.

    Even travelling at 800km/h it would take your average 2,500km range cruise missile several hours to reach its targets.

    The purpose of these defence systems is not defence, but attack.

    The US would start a conflict attempting to destroy as much of Russias strategic capability as possible using B-2s and SLBMs etc in the hope that what ever is left will be reduced or eliminated by the ABM defences.

    The point is that even if it takes 10 interceptors to take out one missile warhead... so what? There are limitations on how many missile warheads each side is allowed, there are no such limitations on interceptors... they can make thousands if they want and they don't have to notify anyone about it.

    The Moscow ABM system was not to save Moscow. The Soviets knew nothing could save Moscow. The purpose of the Moscow ABM system was to hold off its destruction till it had issued commands to launch the counter strike.

    Their greatest fear was a 5 minute attack from the Med by SLBM that would destroy Moscow and the head of command before the command to retaliate had been given.

    We all know a ABM game is very complex and till date we also know that in real world situation an ABM system was never ever tested against decent MRBM forget higher level BM like IRBM and ICBM.

    And we all know that going to the moon would be tricky and before they did it it had never been done before and there was enormous risk and a range of things that could have gone wrong... the point is that while no one has been sending men to the moon as technology moves on and things get lighter and more powerful and materials get lighter and stronger it actually becomes easier and easier to go to the moon, though of course it is not cheap or anything you could actually describe as easy as such.

    The point is that the first ABM systems might not be very great but as they get upgrades and improvemsnts their performance will only improve... existing ABMs might not be able to tell real warheads from balloons but replace that complex hit to kill payload with a large nuke and the decoys get blown aside and the real warheads are revealed... and more importantly as there can only be a maximum of 1,500 warheads and a third will be cruise missiles launched from bombers, and 1/3rd will be SLBMs and the remaining 500 odd will be ICBMs then it is just a matter of waiting becuase the next START treaty will likely go for 1,000 weapons which with the increasing capability of ABM systems will become more and more manageable.

    Tactical nukes simply don't have the range to effectively cover China and Europe... the range limitations for ground launched ballistic and cruise missiles is 500km, so without breaking the INF treaty most targets in the UK and Japan and of course Brussels will require strategic nuclear weapons be used...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    vK_man

    Posts : 45
    Points : 52
    Join date : 2012-03-12

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  vK_man on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:17 am

    GarryB wrote:No idea, but they have set up a new separate force called the Aerospace defence force which takes over the role of controling the air space above Russia and the space above Russia, for which they are launching quite a large number of military satellites over the next few years...

    There has been talk of 100 new military satellites to be launched.

    The purpose of the merge was to combine the Space defence forces and the Air Defence forces to use radars in space, in the air and on the ground to search for missiles and aircraft from ground level and out into space including hypersonic and subsonic things.

    Russians were first to deploy a satellite based tracking system ,followed by Americans who after recieving reports started their own work.One thing most important is the heat bloom which is the variation in ocean temperatures,the wake is a good indicator but not accurate .After that other sensors come to play.He did say that Almaz-1(launched in 1991) was one of the satellites capable of doing this.He also said there were other satellites under Soviet General Staff which had such capabilities to triangulate position of american subs with some accuracy and use launch tactical nuclear warheads via means of cruise missiles ,bombers or Ballistic missiles.But he said it is not accurate enough to do the same feat with conventional cruise missiles as extreme accuracy would be required. He did not give me any more detail,but I wish to know more on this.

    Cold War Submarines: The Design and Construction of U.S. and Soviet Submarines - Norman Polmar, Kenneth J. Moore - Google Books

    Austin

    Posts : 6699
    Points : 7096
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Austin on Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:44 pm

    Why are they developing the A-235 which i suppose is a fixed ground based ABM system as well as mobile S-500 ,doesnt make sense to develop two different system rather develop something as mobile as S-500
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:51 am

    Could turn that around and say they have a mature existing ABM system that has a specific direction and design path, why throw all that away because the S-500 is being developed?

    The older missiles are larger and offer different capabilities which can be further improved with upgrades.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Austin

    Posts : 6699
    Points : 7096
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:44 am

    A-235 is a new project with new long rangeinterceptors , the existing A-135 are getting upgraded.

    Considering these are fixed sites with silo based interceptor they are also vulnerable a lot.

    Its better to invest in mobile S-500 like system.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3308
    Points : 3394
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:10 am

    Actually they need both. Silo based A-235 could be larger than S-500 and is in constant duty. Mobile will be on duty when needed and where needed.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:42 am

    A-235 is a new project with new long rangeinterceptors , the existing A-135 are getting upgraded.

    Considering these are fixed sites with silo based interceptor they are also vulnerable a lot.

    Eh?

    They are ABM interceptor missiles. They are for defending Moscow... which is not going to move... so there is little point in making them mobile too.

    The A-135 is rather larger than the S-500... the trouble you would go to to make it mobile simply isn't worth the benefit of having a mobile ABM system... especially when mobile S-500s are being developed.

    Of course having said that the A-135 and A-235, being much larger missiles could be adapted into anti satellite weapons very easily and in that role mobility would be useful.



    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Austin

    Posts : 6699
    Points : 7096
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:30 am

    I doubt A-235 will be limited to defending only Moscow this time around as they are no more binded by ABM treaty any more to defend 1 or 2 sites.

    Most likely the goal of A-235 is to have capability like US NMD which is to build these at few fixed location and cover most areas that would be important to Russian leaders by its ABM system.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Why are they developing the A-235

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:38 am

    You raise an interesting point... they might extend the A235 to include a system perhaps around St Petersberg, and perhaps another in the far east.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5642
    Points : 5660
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Russia turns off radar in Azerbaijan

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:42 pm

    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/12/10/gabalinskaya/

    Azerbaijan asked for too much (300 million, absurd number, used to be 7 million) to keep operating the site, and Russia thankfully did the right thing, and refused. Radar is not operating anymore, and Voronezh-DM will replace this older type in service.

    TheRealist

    Posts : 78
    Points : 112
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:09 am

    This pull out is being hyped all over the media as Moscow losing its influence in the that region, is that disturbing to the Russians?
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5642
    Points : 5660
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:14 am

    Doubt it, the radar was going to be replaced in any case.

    New set is in Russia, so it is a win win in terms of performance, cost, and strategic security.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:02 am

    The Russians will save a bit of money in this, plus they have better relations with Armenia than they do with Azerbaijan and this change might make them less inclined to be unbiased when dealing with issues between these two countries... especially regarding the Nagorny Karabach issue (spelling) which isn't really resolved yet.

    The radar itself is an old model that uses a lot of power and will just get more and more expensive to maintain and operate.

    The new radars in Russia replacing it are higher performance models that are cheaper to operate.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    TheRealist

    Posts : 78
    Points : 112
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:17 am

    I see the points given, however it seems that Azerbaijan is playing a bit of a dangerous poker game in this situation. I think Moscow must keep their eyes on Azerbaijan, I even read Armenia is leaning towards the EU as well.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:36 am

    I think Moscow must keep their eyes on Azerbaijan,

    Indeed, but having a radar station with a range of several thousand kms that faces away from Russia would not give them much info about Azerbaijan, and having personel stationed in a foreign country is not ideal when a radar inside Russia can do a better job. I suspect the Azerbaijanis would find the extra electrical power useful too.

    {quote] I even read Armenia is leaning towards the EU as well.[/quote]

    Armenia has pretty good relations with most countries around the world except Azerbaijan and Turkey. An Armenia that is friendly with the EU is no problem for Russia.

    These radar sites are part of the Russian Aerospace defence network... having a newer, more capable and more modern radar that is situated inside Russian borders is a bonus... not having to maintain an older radar outside Russian borders plus paying rent for the privilege makes it an even better deal.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    TheRealist

    Posts : 78
    Points : 112
    Join date : 2012-08-20

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:45 am

    I agree with the points given, However I am a bit concerned with Azerbaijan's recent rhetoric towards Armenia. As you may know Filipino workers are in Azerbaijan and I hope they can resolve their disputes.

    It would also be good in the part to reduce spending on this radar station, imagine 150 million dollars plus much needed upgrades with regards with Gabala. No wonder the Voronezh class radar is preferred. One thing I like about the Voronezh is that it can be boosted with only minimal expense.

    Mindstorm

    Posts : 792
    Points : 963
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:28 pm



    The most internal (and also the less publicly known) strategic defensive layer of Soviet/Russian most critical sites awaken from its long slumber.


    http://izvestia.ru/news/541076

    Austin

    Posts : 6699
    Points : 7096
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:20 pm

    Very Interesting project , At 1.8 km/sec which is ~ Mach 5 it seems like a CIWS equivalent for point defence system , creating a cloud of metal in the patch of incoming target.

    Although intercepting a BM target like says a RV at even its max altitude of 6 km does not make sense and Nuclear warhead would be exploded a bit higher and even the speed will be very fast for this gun to intercept I feel.

    But for PGM , Cruise Missile or even supersonic missile this sytem will be very useful as last ditch option


    Mindstorm

    Posts : 792
    Points : 963
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:24 pm



    Very Interesting project , At 1.8 km/sec which is ~ Mach 5 it seems like a CIWS equivalent for point defence system , creating a cloud of metal in the patch of incoming target.

    Although intercepting a BM target like says a RV at even its max altitude of 6 km does not make sense and Nuclear warhead would be exploded a bit higher and even the speed will be very fast for this gun to intercept I feel.

    But for PGM , Cruise Missile or even supersonic missile this system will be very useful as last ditch option


    Austin this is not a project but one of the defensive systems that was operative is URSS (the specifications you see here are...with a good amount of mist.....those of the "old" system, deactivated, for economic reasons, in the troubled '90 years); the deep coverage of its same existence, was caused ,at the time, by the fear that USA would have hard pressed for its removal, attempting to sustain that it was not compliant with ABM Treaty's limits .

    It was purposely designed to defend high critical targets -in particular ICBM silos and strategic Command and Control nodes- from enemy ICBM attacks and was highly optimized and regarded as very efficient for accomplish this specific mission (the saturation of the computed area of RV's incidence was near 100%).

    By the way a nuclear detonation at high altitude, even the 6 km cited, would had been totally useless against the targets that this system was tasked to defend.

    Naturally the results that would be possible to achieve with a modern version of this system (at today still unmatched worldwide) would be on a level completely different.


    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 2349
    Points : 2512
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:15 am

    Very interesting. Is there a picture available?
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5642
    Points : 5660
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:14 am

    Mindstorm wrote:

    The most internal (and also the less publicly known)  strategic defensive layer of Soviet/Russian most critical sites awaken from its long slumber.  


    http://izvestia.ru/news/541076

    Do we have any non-Izvestya sources about this?


    Very interesting to put mildly, but anything Izvestya touches smells like manure to me.

    DIMMI has a small article on the system, but I have not seen any indication it ever entered service...?
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1543
    Points : 1542
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:30 am

    Would like to here everyones opinion on this.

    CCS space jamming system and locator

    Austin

    Posts : 6699
    Points : 7096
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:00 pm

    Viktor point taken. Nice Long Interesting interview with Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov

    http://echo.msk.ru/programs/voensovet/1104718-echo/


    A. QUESTION: I remind Yuri Borisov, Deputy Minister of Defense, and the last question in this part, you just have not responded to it. Here, repeat for Smoudena incident. So the possibility of the American system, it is clear that they are used in the military - is tracking, intelligence, personal intelligence. Do we have such a system, or the Americans here, it came to light that (inaudible), far ahead? This is the same intelligence, roughly speaking.

    Yuri Borisov: In order to use means of combat, of course you're right, it is necessary to have information support. Moreover, as regards the fight from a strategic weapon system, or strategic weapons system, it is usually a multi-tiered system of information, including a space echelon, ground echelon of intelligence and resources, and working at different distances, with different accuracy characteristics.

    A. QUESTION: You specifically said the word train? How the program echelon of American Tracking?

    Yuri Borisov: No, I have not specifically said. Just in our terminology, this is a slang, common, multi-tiered system. Americans today are already in use space-based systems that monitor virtually the ability to run from the territory of Russia or from other areas of the threats of various kinds of missiles, strategic or not strategic, and are able to pinpoint them on the torch. Our system is in this we had it in the mid 80's, we have it created. It's more of the satellites that are on the (inaudible) orbits, and look at the background of the land opportunity ... rather not watch an opportunity, and the fact of watching the start of the torch ballistic missiles, and give a signal that something of such and such a district has taken off. Something slipped, but still can not draw conclusions is something to arrive, and how much time will fly. But only for the simple reason that the strategic missile today tend to be moving along a ballistic trajectory, according to Kepler's laws. And in order to predict the fall of this point, you need some time. But such a system, I stress, the Americans have. They are with us. And now we're just at the stage of the modernization of the system and are in the process of creating a new generation of the system.

    A. QUESTION: This tracking system?

    Yuri Borisov: This tracking system, space tracking system.

    A. QUESTION: And that's how it is accurate? I mean, not only to record the start there and fix the conversations they have in the General Staff?

    Yuri Borisov: No, this system is designed for a different brand. This is not a system of signals intelligence, it is not a system of space-tier information system to detect the launch of ballistic and (inaudible) missiles.

    A. QUESTION: There is parity?

    Yuri Borisov: In this plan ... Parity is, I say, that's where. We are a little behind in the cosmic system, but we seriously now built up the pace to rebuild ground-tier warning system. You may have heard ... But did not hear, and know perfectly well that we have quite recently been put into operation a new plant of high operational readiness in Armavir, which we closed this region, it is a unique station.

    A. QUESTION: It replaced Gabalenskuyu.

    Yuri Borisov: Yes, it replaced Gabalenskuyu station. This is a unique station that has its characteristics superior to the previous ones. Range of its actions around 6,000 kilometers, it can detect objects.

    A. QUESTION: Where to? Return to the south. I just thought, 6000 to the south - this is where we? That we have India, Pakistan?

    Yuri Borisov: Mediterranean Sea.

    A. QUESTION: It's Mediterranean ...

    Yuri Borisov: Yes.

    A. QUESTION: And there's a side of Pakistan.

    Yuri Borisov: Yes. One rocket dangerous area, because the start and can be done from submarines. And almost like the station - they are placed on the perimeter of our borders, and will cover all missile-direction, which is the guarantee of early detection, and signal to the response. The space echelon adds quite simply the probability of making the right decision. Well, I would say it's the first bell. He does not know where all of this will fly, but it says something slipped. A land train, it just simply is accurately calculates according to the information received from these nodes, that the stations of high operational readiness, gaining information for ... Reliable information to respond to the measures already taken. But you know, it's too important decision, and the price of that decision - it is actually whether the world continue to exist at all, or not. So ...

    A. QUESTION: Generally, there is the human factor is taken into account, or is it automatic ... Decisions are made automatically? Here are some there came together the numbers on the machine?

    Yuri Borisov: Alex, a very good question.

    A. QUESTION: But it's prime, actually.

    Yuri Borisov: The main issue. So in practice, the system is automatic. Because there's no time for reflection. A washed-up on the stage, she say, automated. Because in the process of decision-making by far, the man has interfered.

    A. QUESTION: So, this obligation or the ability to persist?

    Yuri Borisov: Yes, it is saved. But the number of people in this situation is sharply reduced, this 2 person.

    A. QUESTION: And, well, that is, it is conditional nuclear suitcase.

    Yuri Borisov: Yes, this is conditional nuclear briefcase.


    Last edited by Austin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Austin

    Posts : 6699
    Points : 7096
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Austin on Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:20 pm

    From interview with Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov we can conclude.

    1 > Russian EW Sats are still 80's based that are on orbit to detect BM launch , American can track all object on Russian terriotary in real time including non-strategic missile . New Russian System under works.

    2 > Confirms Armavir radar has a range of 6000 km Cool  and is a highly automated system needing just 2 men.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun May 27, 2018 3:18 am