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    Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

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    George1
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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:You joke, but UFOs actually exist.

    Between detection and sending a plane out to identify the target most blips on a radar screen are unknown flying objects.

    That is the whole point of sending planes to investigate.

    No, i was serious. Soviet air force fought UFOs. I think last technology stealth PAK-FA will be the perfect for all threats (F-22 that maybe accompany B-52, and other objects).

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:05 pm

    They will carry out Air Defense with long range SAMs, the VVS will not be amused at the concept of handing over its MiG-31s, not to mention, where would they base them? They were just consolidated into the new air bases, alongside other aircraft often, no point in complicating the structure with control overlap on one airbase by multiple commands.
    The structure is new, so yes we will see what the form it takes is in the next few years, but something as big as taking fighters would have been brought up on Russian forums, and I have seen nothing suggesting this.

    I'll wager a bottle of fine vodka that the VVS won't be handing over anything.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:40 am

    I'll wager a bottle of fine vodka that the VVS won't be handing over anything.

    The VVS controlled the PVO, now if the VKKO is the merge of the PVO and the VKO how do you merge two things without handing over stuff?

    If what you are saying is accurate then the VKKO is the VKO and the PVO has been absorbed by the VVS.

    I don't think that is the case.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:58 am

    They are taking ground based air defense equipment, certainly, no argument there, but not the entirety of what was once PVO.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:08 am

    Well the VVS had its own SAMS and radars too, just like the Army did.

    The PVO stuff mainly was radars and SAMs that protected strategic sites and major HQs etc.

    When Gary Powers was shot down it was during the May Day Parade... one of the interceptors sent up to intercept him was shot down because they hadn't changed their IFF settings for the new month (because of the May Day celebration) so the SAM operators couldn't tell their own interceptors from the target.

    The interceptors were PVO, while many of the SAM sites were Air Force as the U2 was photographing airfields.

    The Air Force changed their codes for the new month but the PVO didn't.

    I know it is not particularly reliable but Wiki lists the RVO assets in 1990 as:

    The PVO inventory of 1990 was:

    2,410 interceptors
    210 Su-27 Flanker
    850 MiG-23 Flogger
    350 MiG-25 Foxbat
    360 MiG-31 Foxhound
    500 Su-15 Flagon
    90 Yak-28 Firebar
    50 Tu-128 Fiddler

    AWACS aircraft
    7 Tupolev Tu-126 Moss
    1 Beriev A-50 Mainstay

    Surface to air missiles on strength in 1990 included:[16]

    1,400 S-25 Berkut - being replaced by the Almaz S-300 and expected to be replaced by the Almaz S-400 Triumf
    2,400 Lavochkin S-75 Dvina
    1,000 Isayev S-125 Neva\Pechora - 300+ sites, 2 or 4 missile launchers and rails
    1,950 Almaz S-200 Angara\Vega\Dubna - 130 sites
    1,700 Almaz S-300 - 85 sites, 15 more building
    ABM-1 Galosh Anti-Ballistic Missile, part of the A-35 missile defense system



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    Russian Aerospace Defence forces

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:41 am

    Now if you look at this:

    Russia’s Aerospace Defense Forces to go on duty on Thursday

    00:52 01/12/2011

    Russia’s newly created Aerospace Defense Forces (VKO) will officially go on duty on Thursday, VKO spokesman Alexei Zolotukhin said.

    “At 10:00 am Moscow time (06:00 GMT) on December 1, the first shift of the Aerospace Defense Forces command will go on duty,” Zolotukhin told journalists in Moscow on Wednesday.

    Russian President Dmitry Medvedev proposed the creation of the VKO, an analog of the European missile defense system, to replace the Russian Space Forces, in 2010. The VKO brings together the air defense and missile defense systems, as well as the early missile warning and space control systems, under a unified command.

    “The VKO system is capable of destroying enemy ballistic missiles attacking important state objects, observe space objects, detect threats to Russia from space, and respond to such threats if needed, as well as launch spacecraft and fulfill other tasks,” Zolotukhin said.

    More than 3,000 military and civil personnel will be joining VKO units on a daily basis, he added.

    It seems to not mention air defence except the line "The VKO brings together the air defense and missile defense systems, as well as the early missile warning and space control systems, under a unified command."

    The focus seems to be more an ABM and space defence, yet there is little point in defending a strategic site from ballistic missiles if cruise missiles can just fly in and hit them, or stealth bombers fly in and drop dumb bombs on them for that matter.

    If you look back at this article I posted:

    Russia Keeps 30 MiG-31 Interceptors on High-Alert Duty

    MiG-31 interceptors are an integral part of a comprehensive aerospace defense network being created in Russia to thwart any potential airborne threats, including ballistic and cruise missiles.

    So Air and Space Defence forces, has become Aerospace Defence Forces, so instead of VKKO it perhaps retains the acronym of VKO but with slightly different words meaning air and space instead of space... and Mig-31s are an integral part of the new network.

    Also:

    Military and space defense covers 2 / 3 of Russia
    context

    Space defense will work 70 thousand Russian officers

    Add new comment
    22/07/2011 11:27

    Mozhaisk (Moscow Region), July 22 - RIA Novosti. Joint Forces Strategic Command (USC) military space defense (ASD) cover two-thirds of the territory of Russia, told reporters on Friday the commander of the USC WSO Lt. Gen. Valery Ivanov.

    "We camouflage two-thirds of the country, we have about 800 people daily intrudes on duty - protecting the city of Moscow," - he said.

    According to Ivanov, the main task of ASD - to cover the capital and the central industrial areas.

    The general also said that by the year 2015 is expected to supply troops in the new complex the S-500. "By 2015 we'll have new radio equipment - new fighters and new S-500" - he said. According to him, that "this is an entirely new generation technology."

    On creation of a unified system of ASD Russian President Dmitry Medvedev announced in November 2010 to address the Federal Assembly. We are talking about a uniform system that will perform all the tasks set before the EBA for the future - including the prevention, detection, elimination, suppression and protection facilities.

    USC troops ASD are based on a special command, which will provide air and missile defense of Moscow. They should be part of a unified system of ASD Russia. Now USC WSO controls the airspace over the central industrial region of Russia and is responsible for air defense of Moscow. The troops of cover in total more than 140 objects of government, industry and energy, transport and communications, as well as nuclear power plants.

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20110722/405448162.html

    I think this portion of translated news report that responds to some claims that the VKO was taking over from the VVS:

    In July, the commander of the operational-strategic command (USC) ASD Lt. Gen. Valery Ivanov, in turn, reported that the aircraft that solves the problem of air defense, after the formation of a new kind of forces would report directly to the commander of the WSO USC.

    So they might be VVS planes but they get their orders from the new VKO.

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    Russia Must Be Ready for Space, Cyber Wars

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:53 pm

    Russia Must Be Ready for Space, Cyber Wars

    Russia must be ready for wars in space and in networks, Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces Nikolai Makarov said on Saturday.

    "As you see, warfare center has moved to aerospace and information spheres, including cyber security, from traditional war theatres on land and sea. Concepts of network-centric war have made great progress," Makarov told an Academy of Military Sciences meeting. "We appraise how ... this question is being solved in Western leading countries."

    Makarov also said that an initial period of war had begun to exert a decisive influence on its course and outcome so modern wars became more short-timed.

    The chief added that hi-tech technologies force to cut number of soldiers for higher effectiveness of troops' actions.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120128/171006069.html



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    what is the current status of russian satellite based wake detection system?

    Post  vK_man on Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:27 pm

    what is the current status of russian satellite based wake detection system which was being developed in the soviet era?

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:55 pm

    No idea, but they have set up a new separate force called the Aerospace defence force which takes over the role of controling the air space above Russia and the space above Russia, for which they are launching quite a large number of military satellites over the next few years...

    There has been talk of 100 new military satellites to be launched.

    The purpose of the merge was to combine the Space defence forces and the Air Defence forces to use radars in space, in the air and on the ground to search for missiles and aircraft from ground level and out into space including hypersonic and subsonic things.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:15 am

    More info on the Aerospace Defence Force.


    Russia deploys airspace umbrella

    20:21 02/12/2011
    RIA Novosti military commentator Konstantin Bogdanov

    Russia has organized an aerospace defense branch. The new service branch consolidates units, troops and systems that once worked separately to keep the skies above the country clear.

    The Aerospace Defense (ASD) system was organized at the direction of the Russian president and officially commenced on December 1.

    "The first duty relief to be activated has taken responsibility for the missile attack warning system, anti-missile defense, air defense, space surveillance and satellite launch systems," ASD spokesman Colonel Alexei Zolotukhin said on Thursday.

    All the way from ground to space

    ASD is based on the space troops organization and consolidates the following sections:

    - A missile attack warning system;

    - A space surveillance system;

    - A military space launch infrastructure:

    - Air defense missile troops of the Air Force;

    - The aerospace defense unified strategic command (earlier based on the Moscow missile defense system)

    The branch is subdivided into three sections: the space command, the air and anti-missile defense command, and the Plesetsk military space center.

    In this way, all available information on a possible aerospace attack and the control for engaging both ballistic and aerodynamic (aircraft and cruise missile) targets will be concentrated in one command system.

    ASD troops now control all air defense radar stations, early warning radar systems and orbital intelligence systems (both ground- and satellite-based). Other facilities include S-300 aerospace defense brigades and Moscow's anti-missile defense system equipped with silo-launched interceptors of intercontinental warheads.

    Hodgepodge inheritance

    The Aerospace Defense branch is another attempt to do something with the Soviet legacy in such interlinked areas as anti-missile defense, the country's air defense, missile attack early warning systems, space surveillance, and military space infrastructure.

    In fact, all these systems were established simultaneously and partly complemented one another. Many facilities to defend the Soviet Union from space were "unique and unmatched by anything else": the response measures were designed with special technology and principles of combat application.

    Now the operational philosophy of the armed forces has changed. One can criticize specific points but the general trend is simple: Russia is trying to live within its means by integrating its forces and using "all-purpose platforms."

    It has been specifically noted that existing systems still capable of being upgraded (A-135 anti-missile system of the Moscow industrial area) should be interfaced with new weapons and information systems to be aligned with the aerospace defense system in the coming years.

    The question is how it will all be integrated in practice. It has often been argued, when testing automatic battle management facilities, that some or all systems should be integrated. Integration programs so far have entailed providing two monitor screens for one operator and thus displaying the combat situations from two different systems, not an automatic exchange of data between them.

    The A-135 system is classified, but what is known about its predecessor - (A-35M) - makes one pause: developers of future synchronized mobile aerospace defense systems are facing challenging problems.

    Real and contemplated weapons

    Under the weapons procurement program until 2020, 56 battalions in the armed forces are to be equipped with S-400 air defense systems (four battalions have already received the equipment, another two to four will receive it by early 2012) and ten battalions will received S-500 systems (the program is in the first phase of its development).

    The last system, it seems, will bear the main burden of anti-missile duties. According to military experts, the system will include a missile for the exo-atmospheric interception of ballistic targets. The S-500 system, according to plans, will be deployed after 2015.

    By 2015, incidentally, the Mints Radio Engineering Institute (which has developed most of our early warning radar) promises to roll out a fully prefabricated radar unit called the Mars. It is a mobile version of the Voronezh radar system now being adopted in Russia's missile attack early warning system. It is reasonable to assume that the two systems (the S-500 and the Mars) are being developed in tandem as a weapon and information means of anti-missile defense.

    The tortuous progress in heavy systems development has already brought Russia's air defense to a peculiar state. Unable to select a unified platform for the country's, army and navy air defense systems in the 1970s, the ministry purchased all three and demanded "maximum unification" (which was achieved only nominally because of the different approaches to designs).

    As a result, the army and air defenses are now facing a decision between two design-different but purpose-similar anti-aircraft systems. One is the S-400, which has succeeded the "anti-aircraft" S-300P, taught to intercept tactical ballistic missiles. And the other is the S-300VM/BMD Antei-2500, a derivative of the army's S-300V missile hunter, which has been successful in hitting aerodynamic targets. The logic is forcing these two systems, for all their distinctions, to look increasingly alike.

    Current plans, in this class, provide for only S-400s and Vityaz systems - the next generation of medium-range surface-to-air systems, which must supersede the earlier S-300Ps. No confirmed plans for the army's heavy AD systems have been announced, with just a few hints that available S-300Vs will be upgraded to S-300V4s.

    This shows that, on the one hand, Russia's aerospace defense is only beginning to integrate its weapons systems. On the other, the overall amount set aside for rearmament (about 20 trillion rubles for the next ten years), as seen against the background of continued difficulties in the industry, often compels the military to make simple decisions: what to take and what to discard.

    For the moment it is hard to say how much the Antei anti-ballistic technology will be needed for the development of the S-500. But, judging from decisions made public, the focus on the Antei-Almaz approach as a single platform in aerospace defenses is becoming increasingly obvious.

    The views expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:51 pm

    Mig-31s, Su-35s will be assigned to PVO?

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:49 pm

    George1 wrote:Mig-31s, Su-35s will be assigned to PVO?

    No, the new organization will not have fixed wing assets. Su-35 is all going to VVS, and MiG-31 has been VVS for years.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:17 am

    The Air Force will however keep quite a few interceptors on standby in case a threat is detected via radar.

    The Aerospace Forces would alert the VVS, who would likely send up some Mig-31s to investigate and determine if there is a real threat or not.

    The VVS pilots would be under ADF control and would report their observations to the ADF, and if identified as a threat to aircraft like a balloon that is unmanned floating toward busy airspace which means it becomes a danger to air traffic the ADF might order the VVS pilot to shoot it down, or if it is manned order it to land.

    If the threat is a slow mover like a balloon they might send helicopters to intercept and inspect the target.

    I remember a case in I think it was Bulgaria where a balloon from a race was floating into Bulgarian airspace.

    It was described in Air Forces Monthly magazine in a rather scathing article that talked about the brutal Bulgarian Hind crew shooting down the manned balloon using bursts of cannon fire which of course killed the crew of the clearly marked racing balloon.

    The following month however there was a reply from the Bulgarian side that stated that the balloon was unmarked and silver and that there was not evidence it was manned. The 12.7mm gatling gun on the Hind has no single fire mode so after determining the balloon was unmanned the commander decided to bring the balloon down with a short burst of fire as it was floating towards a high traffic area and especially at night would be a serious danger to air traffic, so he fired a short burst and in his words the canopy disintegrated and the balloon dropped like a stone.

    The ADF has the SAM missile systems of the PVO but it seems the VVS is keeping the interceptors, which I guess makes a lot of sense as having separate ADF airfields and a whole logistics chain would be wasteful.

    The question however is... whose budget pays for dedicated interceptors like the Mig-31 and how will future replacements be funded?

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  Sujoy on Sat May 05, 2012 11:40 am

    The Kremlin has been briefed about the need to come up with an Air Sea Battle concept. Russian Navy & Air Force see cyber operations particularly those involving wireless attacks as a continuum of EW techniques that started inserting false and misleading information in communication and sensors from 2001 onwards. Chinese hackers are neither simplistic or amateurish . China's KJ 2000 is among the platform dedicated to electronic and cyber attacks of airborne targets , particularly those with wide aperture radars that provide paths to invade electronic systems.

    I recon Russian aero space designers -

    (A) Will follow the engineering template of compartmentalizing and isolating functionalities like flight control, weapons & mission systems from cyber weapons that can be delivered wirelessly to corrupt, destroy or exploit digitally controlled capabilities . They key is letting systems interact without providing a path for malware .

    (B) They can also try to obfuscate data so as to break a package of information into parts , distributes the pieces and encrypts each differently . The information can only be re assembled by someone who has the key and instructions about where to find each part.


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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  vK_man on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:17 am

    GarryB wrote:No idea, but they have set up a new separate force called the Aerospace defence force which takes over the role of controling the air space above Russia and the space above Russia, for which they are launching quite a large number of military satellites over the next few years...

    There has been talk of 100 new military satellites to be launched.

    The purpose of the merge was to combine the Space defence forces and the Air Defence forces to use radars in space, in the air and on the ground to search for missiles and aircraft from ground level and out into space including hypersonic and subsonic things.

    Russians were first to deploy a satellite based tracking system ,followed by Americans who after recieving reports started their own work.One thing most important is the heat bloom which is the variation in ocean temperatures,the wake is a good indicator but not accurate .After that other sensors come to play.He did say that Almaz-1(launched in 1991) was one of the satellites capable of doing this.He also said there were other satellites under Soviet General Staff which had such capabilities to triangulate position of american subs with some accuracy and use launch tactical nuclear warheads via means of cruise missiles ,bombers or Ballistic missiles.But he said it is not accurate enough to do the same feat with conventional cruise missiles as extreme accuracy would be required. He did not give me any more detail,but I wish to know more on this.

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    Russia turns off radar in Azerbaijan

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:42 pm

    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/12/10/gabalinskaya/

    Azerbaijan asked for too much (300 million, absurd number, used to be 7 million) to keep operating the site, and Russia thankfully did the right thing, and refused. Radar is not operating anymore, and Voronezh-DM will replace this older type in service.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:09 am

    This pull out is being hyped all over the media as Moscow losing its influence in the that region, is that disturbing to the Russians?

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:14 am

    Doubt it, the radar was going to be replaced in any case.

    New set is in Russia, so it is a win win in terms of performance, cost, and strategic security.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:02 am

    The Russians will save a bit of money in this, plus they have better relations with Armenia than they do with Azerbaijan and this change might make them less inclined to be unbiased when dealing with issues between these two countries... especially regarding the Nagorny Karabach issue (spelling) which isn't really resolved yet.

    The radar itself is an old model that uses a lot of power and will just get more and more expensive to maintain and operate.

    The new radars in Russia replacing it are higher performance models that are cheaper to operate.


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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:17 am

    I see the points given, however it seems that Azerbaijan is playing a bit of a dangerous poker game in this situation. I think Moscow must keep their eyes on Azerbaijan, I even read Armenia is leaning towards the EU as well.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:36 am

    I think Moscow must keep their eyes on Azerbaijan,

    Indeed, but having a radar station with a range of several thousand kms that faces away from Russia would not give them much info about Azerbaijan, and having personel stationed in a foreign country is not ideal when a radar inside Russia can do a better job. I suspect the Azerbaijanis would find the extra electrical power useful too.

    {quote] I even read Armenia is leaning towards the EU as well.[/quote]

    Armenia has pretty good relations with most countries around the world except Azerbaijan and Turkey. An Armenia that is friendly with the EU is no problem for Russia.

    These radar sites are part of the Russian Aerospace defence network... having a newer, more capable and more modern radar that is situated inside Russian borders is a bonus... not having to maintain an older radar outside Russian borders plus paying rent for the privilege makes it an even better deal.


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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TheRealist on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:45 am

    I agree with the points given, However I am a bit concerned with Azerbaijan's recent rhetoric towards Armenia. As you may know Filipino workers are in Azerbaijan and I hope they can resolve their disputes.

    It would also be good in the part to reduce spending on this radar station, imagine 150 million dollars plus much needed upgrades with regards with Gabala. No wonder the Voronezh class radar is preferred. One thing I like about the Voronezh is that it can be boosted with only minimal expense.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:30 am

    Would like to here everyones opinion on this.

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    Possibility of S-400 to intercept successfully a RS-24 Yars

    Post  Deep Throat on Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:38 am

    Is it possible for the S 400 to successfully intercept a RS 24 Yars as it carries 4 MIRVs that are manoeuvrable ?

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:06 pm



    I think intercepting ICBM's are the job of larger system like Gorgon and Gazzelle.

    While S-400's are to intercept smaller TBM and IRBM's

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