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    Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

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    GarryB
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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:36 am

    This change in force structure might have an effect right here in this forum as it seems the Strategic Rocket Forces and the Space Forces are likely to split, while the PVO or Air Defence Forces of the Air Force is also likely to split and the two merged to form the Space and Air Defence Force.

    It will combine AEW duties looking for space junk and incoming space threats like ICBM and SLBM warheads, with the in air defence forces responsible for the airspace above Russia.

    This combined force will have the role of watching the airspace and above over Russia, using land, Sea, Air, and Space based assets... this mobile radar will likely replace a few of the older systems, plus aircraft like the A-100 and Mig-31 and Su-27s of the former PVO forces, plus space based radars and optical sensors will be looking for threats on or above Russia and perhaps also around the world.

    It will be interesting to see who controls it... it is unlikely to be split into 4 chunks for the 4 military districts, but will provide data to Navy, Army, and Air Force.

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    VVKO is to be operational on December 1st

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:23 am

    The new Space and Air Defence Forces have the following thirteen VKO brigades:



    Note these brigades are only a part of the VVKO so there is obviously more than this, but this is how they are laid out.

    They’re numbered 1-12 and 14. Six are in the Western MD. One in the Southern. Three in the Central. And three in the Far East MD.


    1st Aerospace Defense Brigade, Severomorsk, Western MD.
    2nd Aerospace Defense Brigade, Khvoynyy, Western MD.
    3rd Aerospace Defense Brigade, Kaliningrad, Western MD.
    4th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Dolgoprudnyy, Western MD.
    5th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Petrovskoye, Western MD.
    6th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Rzhev, Western MD.
    7th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Rostov-na-Donu, Southern MD.
    8th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Samara, Central MD.
    9th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Ob, Central MD.
    10th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Chita, Central MD.
    11th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Komsomolsk-na-Amure, Far East MD.
    12th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Vladivostok, Far East MD.
    14th Aerospace Defense Brigade, Yelizovo, Far East MD.


    This information is from: http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/tag/vvko/

    Apart from the cluster of three around Moscow they seem pretty fairly spread out along the Russian southern and western border area.

    Just a reminder the VVKO is a combination of the PVO and the VKO.

    The PVO was a component of the Air Force that operated radars, interceptors and SAMs like the SA-2, SA-3, SA-5, and SA-10 (S-300) (the S-300V was an Army system) and aircraft like the Su-9/-11, and Su-15 and Su-27 and Mig-31 and Mig-25 and Tu-128.

    The VKO had ground based and space based radars and was used for space tracking of threats and targets.

    By combining the two forces the new force is now responsible for searching and intercepting threat inside and outside the atmosphere above Russia. From low flying cruise missiles, through aircraft and ballistic missiles and hypersonic weapons in and above the atmosphere.
    The VVKO will be the main user of the S-500,a nd will also operate a lot of S-400 systems as well as Mig-31s, Su-35s, and AWACS aircraft, plus ground and space based radars and EO sensors and of course HALE and MALE UCAVs eventually.

    Edit: Should point out that the interceptor aircraft seem to be actually Air Force aircraft. PVO was a specific branch of the Air Force and had its own aircraft, but with the merging of the PVO and the Space Defence Force (VKO) it seems the interceptor aircraft remain with the Air Force, but would operate under the control of the VKKO or Aerospace Defence forces.


    Last edited by GarryB on Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:35 pm

    Russia’s Aerospace Defense Forces go on duty to stave off missile threats

    Russia’s newly created Aerospace Defense Forces officially went on duty on Thursday to become the country’s first line of defense against strategic military threats.

    Russian President Dmitry Medvedev proposed the creation of the Aerospace Defense Forces, an analog of the European missile defense network to replace the Russian Space Forces, in 2010.

    The new branch of the Russian Armed Forces brings together the country’s air defense and missile defense systems, as well as the early missile warning and space control systems, under a unified command. It is also responsible for launches of spacecraft from the Plesetsk space center in northern Russia.

    “The operational structure of our branch is working and will improve in line with the state armament program in the future,” Lt. Gen. Oleg Ostapenko said on Thursday, adding that over 3,000 military and civilian personnel will be on combat duty in aerospace defense units on a daily basis.

    The current overhaul of Russia’s aerospace defenses is timely, considering new strategic challenges presented by the planned deployment of the U.S.-backed missile shield in Europe.

    The Kremlin says the deployment of U.S. interceptor missiles and radars in Europe is a potential threat to the Russian nuclear arsenal, while Washington is trying to convince Moscow that the European missile shield poses no threat to Russia, as it is needed solely to protect against attack from "rogue states" such as Iran.

    In response to the European missile shield plans Russia put a new early warning radar in service capable of monitoring missile launches from Europe and the North Atlantic in the Russian Baltic Sea exclave of Kaliningrad on Tuesday.

    The Voronezh-DM class radar has a range of 6,000 kilometers (3,700 miles) and can simultaneously track about 500 targets with high accuracy.

    Two similar radars are ready to go on combat duty in Lekhtusi, outside St. Petersburg, and in Armavir in southern Russia, while the construction of the fourth Voronezh class radar will be completed in 2012 near the city of Irkutsk in Siberia.

    The new radars will eventually replace the outdated Dnepr and Daryal class radars and close all gaps in radar coverage on Russia's border

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20111201/169208932.html

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:09 am

    With the ABM treaty no longer in effect they can now create inward looking Voronezh-DM radars which can obviously cover a large swath of Russian airspace at one time.

    With a new space port on the way this new service will likely start launching a lot more satellites soon too.

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    New Russian ABM Systems

    Post  russian_soldier on Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:51 pm

    This video:
    http://multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/video/clips/more.htm?id=1693@morfVideoAudioFile

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:38 pm

    Nice.

    That is one fast missile... it seems to just explode out of the silo.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:45 am

    Russia tests domestic interceptor missile


    Russia carried out a successful test of a short-range interceptor missile on Tuesday as a part of its effort to develop a domestic missile defense shield, the Defense Ministry said.

    The missile was launched from the Sary-Shagan (Kazakhstan) shooting range, the Ministry’s spokesperson said.

    The goal of the test was to confirm the technical characteristics of the missile used by the Defense Ministry’s Space Command.

    Russia's Defense Ministry uploaded a video of the missile's launch on its web site.

    The test comes a month after the Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said that if Moscow's participation in the European missile defense project fails, Russia would deploy Iskander tactical missiles in the Kaliningrad Region and halt its disarmament and arms control efforts, including participation in the new strategic arms reduction treaty with the United States.

    Russia-NATO missile defense talks are close to deadlock as Moscow is seeking written, legally binding guarantees that the U.S.-backed European missile defense program will not be directed against it. Washington, however, refuses to provide the guarantees, saying the shield is directed against threats from Iran and North Korea.

    Russia and NATO agreed to cooperate on European missile defense system at the Lisbon Summit in November 2010. Medvedev proposed a joint system with full-scale interoperability to ensure that the alliance's system will not be directed against Moscow. The military bloc, however, favors two independent systems which exchange information.


    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20111220/170388329.html

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:11 am

    The goal of the test was to confirm the technical characteristics of the missile used by the Defense Ministry’s Space Command.

    Interesting.

    I had read that it had new upgraded electronics to replace older Soviet systems to make it all Russian, but if this test was to confirm the technical characteristics of the missiles used by space command, then this suggests that they are in the process of upgrading all the missiles to this new standard... which makes sense of course.

    You would want to make sure it works before you replace all your older models with it.

    Still astounded at its blistering acceleration...

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:21 am

    Su-35S will assigned to PVO?

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:12 am

    PVO does not exist anymore.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:49 am

    All its assets and responsibilities have been transferred to the VKO, or more accurately the PVO and VKO have merged into the VKKO.

    As shown by this recent article:


    Russia Keeps 30 MiG-31 Interceptors on High-Alert Duty
    MiG-31 Foxhound

    More than 30 MiG-31 Foxhound supersonic interceptor aircraft are on round-the-clock high-alert duty every day protecting the Russian airspace from airborne threats, Air Force spokesman Col. Vladimir Drik said.

    “They [the MiG-31s] scramble every time they receive warnings of a potential violation of the Russian airspace, including the appearance of foreign weather balloons in the stratosphere,”Drik said on Saturday .

    The official said the MiG-31s are usually accompanied by highly-maneuverable Su-27 Flanker fighter jets, which provide protection for heavy interceptors.

    MiG-31 interceptors are an integral part of a comprehensive aerospace defense network being created in Russia to thwart any potential airborne threats, including ballistic and cruise missiles.

    According to various sources, about 500 MiG-31s have been produced since serial production began in 1978, approximately 370 of which remain in service with the Russian Air Force.

    Russia plans to upgrade more than 60 MiG-31 interceptors to the MiG-31BM version by 2020.

    The modernized version is fitted with upgraded avionics and digital data links, a new multimode radar, color multi-function cockpit displays, and a more powerful weapons-control system. It can detect airborne targets at the range of 320 kilometers (200 miles) and simultaneously track up to 10 targets.

    As shown in the bold section the VKKO operates both fighters and interceptors and uses them together.

    Su-35s will likely go to the VVS or Air Force first, but most likely the VKKO will upgrade their Su-27s to Su-35s. The question of what they will do regarding the PAK FA is interesting... will they buy a less stealthy version with external weapons, or will they start a program to develop a new replacement for the Mig-31?

    The PVO had a history of using custom designed aircraft... while the VVS operated Mig-19s and Mig-21s and Mig-23s the PVO used Su-9s and Su-11s, and Su-15s, and of course Mig-25s and Mig-31s and Tu-128s.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:04 am

    VKKO could get the Su-27SM for MiG-31 protection. There are about 50 Su-27SM and 12 Su-27SM3

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:29 am

    They could, but it is hard to distinguish orders between the VVS and the VKKO.

    The VKKO probably wouldn't need the full multirole capability of the Su-35, but the big powerful radar and the wing root mounted L band Radars would be useful.

    Once they get organised they will likely order to their own specific needs... a Su-30SM3 perhaps with wing mounted L band AESA radars.

    Or they could go a step further and order Su-34s which would be even better suited to very long range missions... fit a huge radar and cram in some 117 engines so it will supercruise... Smile

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  medo on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:05 am



    The second serial Su-35 in new colors and with red 02 number.

    As I know in Soviet times they build two versions of Su-27, standard Su-27 for VVS and Su-27P for IA PVO and if I'm correct, the main difference was in data link system that Su-27P could work in IA PVO.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:17 am

    medo wrote:
    As I know in Soviet times they build two versions of Su-27, standard Su-27 for VVS and Su-27P for IA PVO and if I'm correct, the main difference was in data link system that Su-27P could work in IA PVO.

    They can do the same with PAK-FA then. And assign some of them to VVKO

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:18 pm

    As I know in Soviet times they build two versions of Su-27, standard Su-27 for VVS and Su-27P for IA PVO and if I'm correct, the main difference was in data link system that Su-27P could work in IA PVO.

    Quite true... PVO aircraft often had their radar noses painted a very dark green, as opposed to the VVS which normally had them painted white.

    Even the electronics were not exactly the same and an R-27 AAM for the PVO would not be compatible with VVS aircraft as it operated on different frequencies.

    They can do the same with PAK-FA then. And assign some of them to VVKO

    It is certainly possible that the VKKO might want some PAK FAs, but the question is can they justify the extra cost... especially when an Flanker with an AESA and lots of missiles of long range could do the job much more cost effectively.

    The stealthyness of the PAK FA would not be particularly useful intercepting bombers over the north pole.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  medo on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:31 pm

    It is certainly possible that the VKKO might want some PAK FAs, but the question is can they justify the extra cost... especially when an Flanker with an AESA and lots of missiles of long range could do the job much more cost effectively.

    The stealthyness of the PAK FA would not be particularly useful intercepting bombers over the north pole.

    I'm sure VKKO will use both Su-35 and PAK FA. They will protect whole Russian air space, not only north pole. They will not intercept only bombers, but also other valuable targets, like recce planes, ELINT planes, AWACS, air refueling planes etc, which are usually protected with fighters and stealth PAK FA could easier sneak between them and shot them down. Than they will together with Su-35 deal with enemy fighters and fighter-bombers without support of those planes. They could also shot down UAVs and UCAVs, which will never know, what hit them, because they will not be aware of PAK FA presence there.

    Anyone know if those first Su-35s will be received in VVS or in VKKO?

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:47 pm

    Source of PVO and VVS R-27s having different frequencies?

    Also, there are no plans so far to install wing mounted arrays on any Flanker in the VVS. I would be quite frankly shocked if it ever came about.

    I don't know what all this VKKO talk is about, they don't operate fighters, nor is there any indication they will. Su-35 is going VVS, no doubt about that. Same with Su-30SM (aside from the potential Navy ones). There are not enough Su-35s even entering service to talk about splitting them up into other service branches Smile .

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:07 am

    I don't know what all this VKKO talk is about, they don't operate fighters,

    post 19 above:

    The official said the MiG-31s are usually accompanied by highly-maneuverable Su-27 Flanker fighter jets, which provide protection for heavy interceptors.

    Also, there are no plans so far to install wing mounted arrays on any Flanker in the VVS. I would be quite frankly shocked if it ever came about.

    It would be more use to the VKKO flankers.

    Source of PVO and VVS R-27s having different frequencies?

    An old article about R-27s. I think it was a Piotr Butowski article but can't remember.

    Same with Su-30SM (aside from the potential Navy ones).

    Before recent purchases of various Flanker types by the VVS the only Russian operator of the Su-30 was the PVO.

    It was developed from the Su-27UB operational trainer and was intended to be used like a Mig-31 where the guy in the back seat operated the radar instead of a guy on the ground in a van.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:10 am

    I don't see how that shows the VKKO has fighters. No Russian description I have seen indicated they operate fighters, something that big would be easy to find. All of the listed fighter strength is either VVS or Navy.

    Su-30 did go to PVO (a handful at best), but the VVS absorbed the PVO's aircraft. It also nabbed the army's helicopters.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:17 am

    Su-30 did go to PVO (a handful at best), but the VVS absorbed the PVO's aircraft. It also nabbed the army's helicopters.

    The VVS took control of the PVOs assets and role, but now the PVO assets and role have been taken from the VVS and combined with the VKO to create the VKKO.

    The PVO also used Mig-21 and Mig-23 fighters as well.

    The PVO was the major user of the AA-3 AAM, and the AA-6 and the AA-5 and the AA-9 for interceptors and AA-2, AA-8, AA-7, AA-10, AA-11 on fighters.

    The VVS used AA-2, AA-7, AA-8, AA-10 and AA-11 on fighters.

    I don't see how that shows the VKKO has fighters.

    Are you suggesting the PVOs and now VKKOs Mig-31s operated with VVS Flanker cover?

    There are plenty of PVO/VKKO airbases that don't have VVS airbases nearby, do the VVS Flankers operate from PVO/VKKO airbases?

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:36 am

    I see no basis for assuming the VKKO ever got fighter assets, or MiG-31s. They were given to the air force, and stayed there (small number of navy MiG-31s aside).
    Like I said, I have NEVER herd of VKKO getting combat aircraft inventory. Just check RussianPlanes.net, all fighter assets are tagged as VVS units.

    Since the reforms, and the consolidation of units into larger airbases, it has been relatively easier to track where units are, and I have never seen any VKKO airbases with fighters.
    MIG-31s even have the stupid new "BBC ROSIYE" plastered onto them.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:15 am

    The VKKO only formed on December 1st 2011 and they only appointed the command structure (which was largely the VKO command structure) just before then.

    If the Space and Air Defence Forces don't have fighters and interceptors how do they defend Russian Air Space?

    More importantly with the Air Force command structure split amongst the 4 new military districts what happens in an enemy cruise missile is programmed to weave in and out of the border of two MDs?

    The VKKOs equipment includes ground and air and space assets to defend Russian Air Space. AWACS aircraft will be useful, but Interceptors and fighters will actually be required to do the actual defending.

    I think the main problem is that the VKKO is still in the process of being created as shown by the article I posted above in post 19.

    Particularly:

    MiG-31 interceptors are an integral part of a comprehensive aerospace defense network being created in Russia to thwart any potential airborne threats, including ballistic and cruise missiles.

    This role is clearly being performed by the VVS at the moment, but will likely be handed to the VKKO once they are organised and equipped for the job.

    Simply creating a Russia wide command and control structure and integrating all its new assets will take time.

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:18 am

    GarryB wrote:

    If the Space and Air Defence Forces don't have fighters and interceptors how do they defend Russian Air Space?

    I agree 100%. How they will get down UFOs also? Smile

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    Re: Aerospace Defence | Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:13 pm

    You joke, but UFOs actually exist.

    Between detection and sending a plane out to identify the target most blips on a radar screen are unknown flying objects.

    That is the whole point of sending planes to investigate.

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