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    Space and Missile Defense General Thread

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    Militarov
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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  Militarov on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:04 pm

    Tolstoy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The fine details are secret to prevent anyone else doing the same who does not already have that capability.

    Ok. So I was wondering how can Russia develop countermeasures to US MIRVs if it doesn't have detailed knowledge about the way MIRVs manoeuvre. As a Russian this is of concern to me.

    Its vice-versa, "We both got long sticks".
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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  max steel on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:14 pm

    Tolstoy wrote:Ok. So I was wondering how can Russia develop countermeasures to US MIRVs if it doesn't have detailed knowledge about the way MIRVs manoeuvre. As a Russian this is of concern to me.


    For the record Russia Defense systems ( A-135(Gazelle)) can intercept Minuteman III and Trident (containing MIRVs) in terminal range. The incoming S-500( mobile ) and A-235 (immobile) will do it in higher range.Meanwhile US Ground based Interceptors can't even intercept China's ICBM reliably let alone Russia's.





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    GarryB
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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:28 am

    Ok. So I was wondering how can Russia develop countermeasures to US MIRVs if it doesn't have detailed knowledge about the way MIRVs manoeuvre. As a Russian this is of concern to me.

    First of all if anyone tells you about you being safe under an ABM umbrella then they are lying to you.

    The game of measure and counter measure is continuous and ongoing.

    Think of a MIRV as a glide bomb rather than a manouvering cruise missile.

    When released from the bus they are basically released heading directly at their target with some manouvering capability to fine tune that accuracy and hit the target more precisely.

    A MaRV is an actively manouvering reentry vehicle that can perform active manouvers to evade ground and air based threats and head specifically to a point target.

    Because it has its own propulsion and guidance it can hit targets much further from the flight path of the carrier rocket and can change its flight path significantly more than a simple MIRV can.

    Much more difficult to hit.

    Hitting a MIRV is like a TOR hitting a laser guided bomb... a laser guided bomb will perform small flight corrections to ensure a precise hit on a point target but will not manouver all that much.

    In comparison a MaRV is actively trying to evade the defences around the target...


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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  jhelb on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Think of a MIRV as a glide bomb rather than a manouvering cruise missile.

    What are the requirements that an ICBM/SLBM need to fulfil before it can carry MIRVs? I understand not all ICBMs/SLBMs can carry MIRVs.

    I didn't think even China has that capability but last month RT reported that even Pakistan has developed long range ballistic missile that can carry MIRVs.
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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:43 am

    Basically a MIRV is a bus mounted in the nose of the missile that carries the warheads.

    The bus can manouver by itself... so the missile is launched and the first stage falls away after getting the whole missile airborne and up to speed... the second stage then carries itself and the third stage towards the target area... when it burns out the final stage is in space so no drag and the bus has a limited capability to manouver... it does not have the fuel or the energy to do 90 degree turns or deviate enormous distance from its normal ballistic flight path but it can turn to release a warhead in the direction of a target on its flight path... when it does so the re entry vehicles or warheads just fall on the target... like a dumb bomb.

    This design means if your sub is in the north sea and you launch a missile towards the UK, you could also send warheads to targets in western europe... but not in the opposite direction to Japan for instance.

    An ICBM missile from Iran travelling over europe to the US could drop warheads on various european targets on the way past for instance.

    Previous missiles were not really accurate enough to hit point targets and with an accuracy of a kilometre or so you just used them against a city.

    With a target like London it is such a wide area to get a decent level of damage hitting it with 4-6 warheads is much more effective than even hitting it with a really big warhead. each warhead does not need to be precision placed... just an even spread is good enough so a MIRV is a waste of time... a scatter of 4-6 MRVs is plenty.

    Of course sometimes missiles fail so having MIRVed warheads from say 6 different SLBMs means one on each missile could be aimed at a different place in London... so a Missile launched from the North Sea might hit 10 targets in the UK... one target being London. Another missile from a different sub near Murmansk might have one warhead headed for London and one for Paris and Brussels.... so one warhead from 6 different missiles from 6 different subs from 6 different directions might be programmed to hit London... if one missile fails the other 5 hits will ensure Londons destruction... of those six missiles a second warhead on each might be going for Brussels and one for Paris.

    All targets needing to be hit will be covered with warheads from other missiles so if one missile fails or is shot down then there will be enough other warheads to ensure the job gets done anyway.


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    Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:56 pm

    Warhead “Super-Fuze” Increases Targeting Capability Of US SSBN Force

    How US nuclear force modernization is undermining strategic stability: The burst-height compensating super-fuze
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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  kvs on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:40 pm

    Austin wrote:Warhead “Super-Fuze” Increases Targeting Capability Of US SSBN Force

    How US nuclear force modernization is undermining strategic stability: The burst-height compensating super-fuze

    Bollox.

    The assumption peddled in the second article is that Russian silo ICBMs would remain in their silos until the US warheads reached them.
    I have never seen any detailed justification of this assumption. The time between launch and arrival at the target is over 10 minutes
    at the least for ballistic missiles and well over an hour for cruise missiles even if they were to be fired at Russia's borders. The only way
    a first strike would work if there was a coup in the Kremlin that had enough time to sabotage the command and control. This is about
    as likely as pigs learning to fly through the icy wastes of Hell. Even Boris Yeltsin's bootlick comprador regime could not disable Russia's
    nuclear deterrent. Sorry, Uncle Scumbag, your window for action never really opened and is certainly closed now.
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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:44 pm

    The problem with hearing from a lot of sources...

    is that many like to use liquid fuelled ICBMs used by the Soviet Union as evidence of their backwardness... obviously solid fuel is superior to anything else... the west invented solid fuel don't you know... in China.


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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:47 pm

    I would add that with an interception capability of targets moving at 4.8km/s most models of S-400 should be able to defend an ICBM silo field from SLBM attack... certainly with S-500 the job would be even easier...

    Because Silos need direct hits I would think even TOR could blunt an SLBM attack on a silo...


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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  Arrow on Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:24 pm

    would add that with an interception capability of targets moving at 4.8km/s most models of S-400 should be able to defend wrote:

    Russia test S-400 against target moving at 4 km/s speed? There is no information about this.
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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:03 am

    Nahh, they pulled the number from the air... just the same with the range and flight speed of the missiles.

    Most bits of military equipment have design specs they need to perform to to be successful and to enter service.

    Target speeds of 4.8km/s is one of those parameters required of the S-400 SAM system.

    Why would it not have been tested?

    All the information released about the system lists 4.8km/s as the max speed for targets engaged by the system.

    That might be a limitation of the missile or the tracking and guidance system. When an S-500 battery is co-located then the S-400 system might be able to engage faster targets with improved radar systems of the S-500 operating with the S-400 battery.


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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:20 am

    Arrow wrote:
    would add that with an interception capability of targets moving at 4.8km/s most models of S-400 should be able to defend wrote:

    Russia test S-400 against target moving at 4 km/s speed? There is no information about this.

    They using the rockets of the old SAM systems as target drones, so the speed is there.

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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  Arrow on Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:14 am

    They using the rockets of the old SAM systems as target drones, so the speed is there. wrote:

    Yes but this speed is about 1-1.5km/s ?
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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  kvs on Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:The problem with hearing from a lot of sources...

    is that many like to use liquid fuelled ICBMs used by the Soviet Union as evidence of their backwardness... obviously solid fuel is superior to anything else... the west invented solid fuel don't you know... in China.

    I guess the premise of a first strike is that it is of sufficient back-stab suddenness that Russian silo ICBMs will not have time to fuel up.
    But I am quite sure that this was considered in the ICBM design going back to the 1950s. That is why they don't use LOX as an oxidant
    which allows them to be loaded with fuel for a long time. If US nuclear missiles can reach Russian silo targets in 10 minutes then
    it does not make sense to have ICBMs which cannot be in a full time state of readiness.

    But it is rather certain that any launch from near Russia's borders will be detected and Russian silo ICBMs will be flying almost immediately.
    So the 10 minute window is of no particular advantage for the first strike lunatics.

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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:50 am

    Yes but this speed is about 1-1.5km/s ?

    They have plenty of missiles with flight speeds of 4.8km/s and beyond they could use for testing.

    When they displayed interceptions in the 1990s at foreign military events they didn't use Honest Johns and MLRS weapons for the interception tests... they used their own equivalents.

    They would do the same for S400 tests.

    Do you think they use 1.5km/s SAM drones to test the Moscow ABM system every year for the last 30 odd years?


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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  Arrow on Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:34 pm

    What are the missile ? Russia hasn't MRBM and IRBM.



    So how many ICBM intercept Moscow ABM system during the test for last 10 years ?
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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:44 am

    They have plenty of different missiles they can use... look at all the ICBMs they have withdrawn in the last 20 years.

    Liquid fuelled rockets can turn off their engines at any time and therefore reach any speed desired for reentry for testing purposes.


    So how many ICBM intercept Moscow ABM system during the test for last 10 years ?

    Hahahahahaha... yes... they tested them every year or every second year during the cold war but now they don't test them at all. All those upgrades and new radars and new missiles and they have not tested at all in the last 20 years... very logical.

    BTW I have never seen a photo of Obama taking a shit... I guess he is not human.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:18 am


    Muti-topic article on КБМ with a very interesting paragraph on one of the most secret startegic defense product : active-protection system for startegic installations against ICBM warheads, denomination " «изделие 171».

    Are decribed some of its outstanding achievements, also against a massed attack with 8 real ICBMs.


    http://warfiles.ru/show-149176-put-ot-minometov-k-iskanderu-verbe-i-arene.html

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    Re: Space and Missile Defense General Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:55 am

    Ok. So I was wondering how can Russia develop countermeasures to US MIRVs if it doesn't have detailed knowledge about the way MIRVs manoeuvre. As a Russian this is of concern to me.

    I should qualify my answer by saying that the way the US and Russian missile manouver is secret because they don't want Chinese or Iranian or North Korean missiles doing the same.

    The fact that the method of manouver is secret does not mean you need to know it to defeat it.

    When you launch an R-73 AAM at an F-35 it does not need to know how the flight control system of the F-35 works to hit it... it just needs a lock and the ability to turn when it needs to to ensure that if the target moves it can move to retain an intercept course to hit it.


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