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    Russian Space Forces: News Thread

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    max steel

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  max steel on Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:48 am

    Soon US and Japan will test SM-3 Block II-A and Block II-A is meant to intercept IRBMs. Intermediate Range BM.


    THAAD-ER is complementary to S-500 according to US. But THAAD is a poor man's S-300 ( so I've my doubts whether THAAD-ER will intercept ICBMs and HGVs Wink )
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:37 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    I think he's talking about the block IIA:
    -2,500 km range
    -1,500 km flight ceiling
    -4.5 km/s (Mach 15.25) speed

    Compared to the S-300V4:
    -400 km range
    - ? flight ceiling
    -2.6 km/s (Mach 7.64) speed

    Based on these specs, one could see where kilo is coming from, but we must remember that the S-300Vs were made not just for defending against high flying ballistic missiles, but also low flying cruise missiles and aircraft's, while the SM-3, the S-500 and the Nodul are dedicated ABM systems, that's why the S-500 isn't replacing the S-400s.

    UPDATE: I knew i should have checked the previous pages, anyway Max post of S-500 specs:
    -600 km range
    -200+ km ceiling
    -7 km/s (Mach 21) speed

    Based on these specs and other sources, it looks like the S-500 is going to be something like an S-400ER (extended range), but with a significant emphasis against hyper-sonic threats, it looks like the Nodul is going to be there real dedicated ABM system.

    thanks for that post cheers
    SM-3IIA is to be tested this year and deployed in Poland by 2018.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:51 am

    Based on these specs and other sources, it looks like the S-500 is going to be something like an S-400ER (extended range), but with a significant emphasis against hyper-sonic threats, it looks like the Nodul is going to be there real dedicated ABM system.

    No.

    S-500 is a mobile development of the S-300 and S-400 series SAMs and will primarily be used against ballistic missiles while S-400 or S-300V4 operates under it defeating other aerial threats.

    Nudel is a mobile version of the Moscow ABM system and will probably be deployed to major Russian cities and major military centres like the HQs of the four military districts together with probably S-400 and other SAMs to defend the areas.

    They are developments in two different directions... but I suspect Nudel will also have anti satellite roles as well.


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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:58 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Based on these specs and other sources, it looks like the S-500 is going to be something like an S-400ER (extended range), but with a significant emphasis against hyper-sonic threats, it looks like the Nodul is going to be there real dedicated ABM system.

    No.

    S-500 is a mobile development of the S-300 and S-400 series SAMs and will primarily be used against ballistic missiles while S-400 or S-300V4 operates under it defeating other aerial threats.

    Nudel is a mobile version of the Moscow ABM system and will probably be deployed to major Russian cities and major military centres like the HQs of the four military districts together with probably S-400 and other SAMs to defend the areas.

    They are developments in two different directions... but I suspect Nudel will also have anti satellite roles as well.

    Nudol sounds like a good candidate to deploy abroad then.
    I was thinking Syria, for some major trolling against SM-3 deployment in Poland "against Iranian threat".
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    jhelb

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  jhelb on Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:39 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    No.

    S-500 is a mobile development of the S-300 and S-400 series SAMs and will primarily be used against ballistic missiles while S-400 or S-300V4 operates under it defeating other aerial threats.

    So GarryB, as on this date the only difference between the S-500 & the S-400 is that the S-500 is a mobile version of the S-400? Is that right?
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:43 pm

    What? No. LOL. Both candidates are similar in setup - truck movement/deployment.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:37 am

    So GarryB, as on this date the only difference between the S-500 & the S-400 is that the S-500 is a mobile version of the S-400? Is that right?

    No.

    The S-400 is a part replacement for the S-300... the S-350 will also replace the S-300.

    The S-500 is new and is basically a mobile ABM system.

    There is talk that the S-500 might be based on the two stage S-300V, but we really don't know yet.

    Note the S-300 is widely called SA-10 and SA-20 in its later models in the west, while the S-300V is the SA-12A and SA-12B with the further improved models being called Antei-2500, and S-300V4.

    The S-300 is an air force weapon and is truck based for mobility but would be based in locations like air fields including large and fixed and small temporary fields, while the S-300V is based on tracked vehicles and is expected to move with a mobile army.


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    jhelb

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  jhelb on Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    No.

    The S-400 is a part replacement for the S-300... the S-350 will also replace the S-300.

    The S-500 is new and is basically a mobile ABM system.

    But then from whatever open source material is available(especially in the Russian media) it seems S-500 will share the same missiles as the S-400, however the S-500 will get a new AESA radar.

    As far as S-350 is concerned, is there still a need for Buk-3 because the S-350 can do the job of the Buk?
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:47 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    No.

    The S-400 is a part replacement for the S-300... the S-350 will also replace the S-300.

    The S-500 is new and is basically a mobile ABM system.

    But then from whatever open source material is available(especially in the Russian media) it seems S-500 will share the same missiles as the S-400, however the S-500 will get a new AESA radar.

    As far as S-350 is concerned, is there still a need for Buk-3 because the S-350 can do the job of the Buk?

    There's a lot of conflicting information out there, but we could be fairly certain that the S-500 missile isn't the same as that of the S-400 from the fact that it needs to intercept hypersonic targets.

    As for the S-350 and BUK, these are to different systems with different ranges and requirements, the S-350 is a wield platform with a 120km range and 12 missiles most likely designed to counter saturating strikes, while the BUK is a tracked platform with a 40km (70km M3) range with 4 (6) missiles meant for army AD, so no these two aren't interchangeable.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:28 am

    But then from whatever open source material is available(especially in the Russian media) it seems S-500 will share the same missiles as the S-400, however the S-500 will get a new AESA radar.

    No it wont share missile design with the S-400... the S-500 is primarily an ABM missile, while the S-400 is a longer ranged S-300 with targets including but not limited to air breathing and short to medium range ballistic targets and cruise missiles.

    It is highly likely the S-500 will be a multiple stage design that does not need a 150kg warhead like the S-400 and S-300 missiles.

    The S-500 will have all its own radar as its role is different and it requires different information to operate.

    It will likely be integrated with S-400 or S-350 batteries however in actual use simply because as a system it will compliment them and vice versa.

    As far as S-350 is concerned, is there still a need for Buk-3 because the S-350 can do the job of the Buk?

    S-350 is an air force and navy weapon. Buk will be an army and navy weapon.



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    jhelb

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  jhelb on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:48 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:There's a lot of conflicting information out there, but we could be fairly certain that the S-500 missile isn't the same as that of the S-400 from the fact that it needs to intercept hypersonic targets.

    Even S-400 is supposed to intercept hypersonic targets. That's what the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles are for, exo atmospheric interception of warheads travelling at hypersonic speeds.

    GarryB wrote:
    No it wont share missile design with the S-400... the S-500 is primarily an ABM missile, while the S-400 is a longer ranged S-300 with targets including but not limited to air breathing and short to medium range ballistic targets and cruise missiles.

    It is highly likely the S-500 will be a multiple stage design that does not need a 150kg warhead like the S-400 and S-300 missiles.

    OK! Good to know. Do you have the names of the missiles that the S-500 will use?

    If it's true that A-235 will be mobile then I am not sure what purpose the S-500 will serve? My guess is that the A-235 will be used for exo-atmospheric interception & if that fails then the S-500 will be used for endo atmospheric interception.
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    max steel

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  max steel on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:59 pm

    A-235 will be immobile .
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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:51 am

    OK! Good to know. Do you have the names of the missiles that the S-500 will use?

    No idea... not many people actually know.

    Don't know whether it is single or two stage... has been said it will be a new missile and not based on S-400, though it may operate with S-400.

    If it's true that A-235 will be mobile then I am not sure what purpose the S-500 will serve? My guess is that the A-235 will be used for exo-atmospheric interception & if that fails then the S-500 will be used for endo atmospheric interception.

    Nudels missiles will be truck based and likely mobile but the radars and infrastructure needed to use them will likely be largely fixed.

    Think of S-400 as being Patriot/THAAD and S-500 being PAC-3/THAAD-ER, while Nudol is getting close to being a dedicated anti sat and anti ICBM system...

    Except that S-400 can deal with a wide range of targets including those travelling at 4.8km/s, while S-500 will be able to deal with targets travelling at 7km/s and some low orbit objects, while Nudel will be able to hit incoming ICBMs and satellites in low and possibly medium orbit too.


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:26 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:There's a lot of conflicting information out there, but we could be fairly certain that the S-500 missile isn't the same as that of the S-400 from the fact that it needs to intercept hypersonic targets.

    Even S-400 is supposed to intercept hypersonic targets. That's what the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles are for, exo atmospheric interception of warheads travelling at hypersonic speeds.

    The hell, my list only went up to the 40N6, now i am really confused, anyway it's gonna be very interesting when the S-500 go's public, our estimates might be totally off.

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    ABM Discussion

    Post  rambo54 on Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    OK! Good to know. Do you have the names of the missiles that the S-500 will use?

    No idea... not many people actually know.

    Don't know whether it is single or two stage... has been said it will be a new missile and not based on S-400, though it may operate with S-400.

    If it's true that A-235 will be mobile then I am not sure what purpose the S-500 will serve? My guess is that the A-235 will be used for exo-atmospheric interception & if that fails then the S-500 will be used for endo atmospheric interception.

    Nudels missiles will be truck based and likely mobile but the radars and infrastructure needed to use them will likely be largely fixed.

    Think of S-400 as being Patriot/THAAD and S-500 being PAC-3/THAAD-ER, while Nudol is getting close to being a dedicated anti sat and anti ICBM system...

    Except that S-400 can deal with a wide range of targets including those travelling at 4.8km/s, while S-500 will be able to deal with targets travelling at 7km/s and some low orbit objects, while Nudel will be able to hit incoming ICBMs and satellites in low and possibly medium orbit too.

    Well all that is an evolutionary process.
    S-300P was alway (in every version) not that what was expected. But Almaz (and Sukhoi) was supported in the Yelzin era. Antey (and MiG) fell short. But the Antey System (S-300V) had always the better potential in its design parameters and came closer to both a long range anti aircraft system with the ability to intercept IRBMs.
    The desperate struggle to turn the S-300P finally into the weapon which was needed ends up in the S-400 (with 40N6, better SW and Radar) and in the S-350, which finally will bring up the 9M96 already promised for S-300P.
    After establishing Almaz-Antey it was clear that the real successor to S-300V will not be stopped at V4 but come up with the S-500.
    Up to now we didn't know much about the 40N6. Does it fit really into the same container like 48N6? Or is it a step forward to a longer missile which will materialize in one of the missiles for S-500?
    I think it is fair to assume that the missiles for S-500 will more derive from 9M82 than from 48N6. One seems for sure. The improvement in Radar, SW, and a 9M82 follow on will provide the S-500 with a true IRBM defence capability which S-400 don't have.

    About ASAT/Nudol and A-235 there is also a lot of guessing. Some sources say both systems are the same. If you have a capable long range ABM you also can kill satellites (SM-3). But who knows. It is believed that A-235 will be stationary. But a new long range variant (as successor to 51T6) was never tested. Just the 53T6 was improved an Don-2N. Is that already "A-235"?
    And if so, is this complemented by a mobile system which was presented on the Almaz-Antey calender picture? A "mobile" system which is supported by a stationary Radar at Chekov? Does this make sense? Or does that Almaz picture just show a variant of S-500?
    Well time will tell

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    As Russian "discreetly" deployed missile defense

    Post  Austin on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:49 am

    Interesting article

    As Russian "discreetly" deployed missile defense

    http://politrussia.com/vooruzhennye-sily/kak-rossiya-laquo-nezametno-raquo-426/

    It may look Russian missile defense

    http://politrussia.com/vooruzhennye-sily/kak-mozhet-vyglyadet-228/
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:54 pm

    Russia’s anti-ballistic missile defense system to be upgraded by late 2017

    Work is in full swing today to create a unified national ABM-air defense system of the 21st century to comprise S-500 air defense missile complexes and advanced mobile radar stations

    MOSCOW, January 23. /TASS/. Russia’s anti-ballistic missile system will be upgraded until the end of 2017, Chief of Staff of a Missile Defense Formation Colonel Alexei Chumakov said in an interview with Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper on Monday.

    "Work is in full swing today to create a unified national ABM-air defense system of the 21st century to comprise S-500 air defense missile complexes and advanced mobile radar stations. As a whole, the entire ABM system will be upgraded until the end of 2017. Importantly, the system is being modernized without the withdrawal of capabilities from the organic mode of operation, i.e. without interruptions in operational readiness," he said.

    At present, the radar Don-2N is also undergoing profound upgrade to increase the range of detecting both ballistic targets and small space objects and make its transmitters and receivers more powerful," Krasnaya Zvezda said in its material.

    The Don-2N is a stationary multi-purpose all-round surveillance centimeter-range radar station created to perform missions for Moscow’s missile defense. The radar is capable of detecting an ICBM warhead at a distance of 3,700 km and at an altitude of 40,000 km. The Don-2N is the central and the most complex element of Moscow’s anti-ballistic missile defense system. It is assigned the tasks of detecting and tracking ballistic missiles, measuring coordinates and aiming anti-missiles at incoming targets. The radar is integrated into the unified system of additional data support for missile early warning and outer space control systems.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/926764


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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:31 am

    To clarify the Russian military wanted new long range SAMs for each branch of its military and like most programmes started out with a unified concept/design and label.

    The S-300 sounded nice in theory but took three different directions... F for the Navy, P for the Air Force, and V for the Army.

    F and P are very much related and look very similar externally though of course there are plenty of actual differences.

    V looks totally different.

    The ship mounted models (F) look very similar to the ground based air force models(P), while the Army models(V) are quite different.

    The Air Force missiles are called SA-10, though its later models (ie S-300PMU1/2) are called SA-20.

    The Navy missiles are called SA-N-6 for the S-300F and SA-N-20 for S-300FM.

    The Army S-300V is called SA-12A and B for the two different missiles, while the improved model Antei-2500 or S-300VM are called SA-23.

    The new S-400 is called SA-21 and can be considered a development of the S-300 family for the Navy and Air Force, but the smaller S-400 missiles will likely be called S-350 and deal with shorter to medium range threats with S-400 dealing with longer range targets.

    The future looks like S-400 and S-350 for Air Force and Navy for long range and medium range air defence, with S-500 being an ABM system that compliments but does not replace either being a more specialised system

    For the Army the S-300V4 will likely continue to be developed and for medium range threats the latest model BUKM3 will deal with medium range threats, and S-500 for strategic threats.

    Nudel might be mounted on the back of trucks but I suspect it will remain silo launched with fixed infrastructure... the sort of missions it would be used for (ie protecting cities or major areas) means there is little benefit to making it mobile and launched from a truck.


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    Austin

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    Ballistic Missile Defence: Discussion

    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:56 pm

    Warhead “Super-Fuze” Increases Targeting Capability Of US SSBN Force

    How US nuclear force modernization is undermining strategic stability: The burst-height compensating super-fuze
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  kvs on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:40 pm

    Austin wrote:Warhead “Super-Fuze” Increases Targeting Capability Of US SSBN Force

    How US nuclear force modernization is undermining strategic stability: The burst-height compensating super-fuze

    Bollox.

    The assumption peddled in the second article is that Russian silo ICBMs would remain in their silos until the US warheads reached them.
    I have never seen any detailed justification of this assumption. The time between launch and arrival at the target is over 10 minutes
    at the least for ballistic missiles and well over an hour for cruise missiles even if they were to be fired at Russia's borders. The only way
    a first strike would work if there was a coup in the Kremlin that had enough time to sabotage the command and control. This is about
    as likely as pigs learning to fly through the icy wastes of Hell. Even Boris Yeltsin's bootlick comprador regime could not disable Russia's
    nuclear deterrent. Sorry, Uncle Scumbag, your window for action never really opened and is certainly closed now.
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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:44 pm

    The problem with hearing from a lot of sources...

    is that many like to use liquid fuelled ICBMs used by the Soviet Union as evidence of their backwardness... obviously solid fuel is superior to anything else... the west invented solid fuel don't you know... in China.


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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:47 pm

    I would add that with an interception capability of targets moving at 4.8km/s most models of S-400 should be able to defend an ICBM silo field from SLBM attack... certainly with S-500 the job would be even easier...

    Because Silos need direct hits I would think even TOR could blunt an SLBM attack on a silo...


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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Arrow on Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:24 pm

    would add that with an interception capability of targets moving at 4.8km/s most models of S-400 should be able to defend wrote:

    Russia test S-400 against target moving at 4 km/s speed? There is no information about this.
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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:03 am

    Nahh, they pulled the number from the air... just the same with the range and flight speed of the missiles.

    Most bits of military equipment have design specs they need to perform to to be successful and to enter service.

    Target speeds of 4.8km/s is one of those parameters required of the S-400 SAM system.

    Why would it not have been tested?

    All the information released about the system lists 4.8km/s as the max speed for targets engaged by the system.

    That might be a limitation of the missile or the tracking and guidance system. When an S-500 battery is co-located then the S-400 system might be able to engage faster targets with improved radar systems of the S-500 operating with the S-400 battery.


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    Re: Russian Space Forces: News Thread

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:20 am

    Arrow wrote:
    would add that with an interception capability of targets moving at 4.8km/s most models of S-400 should be able to defend wrote:

    Russia test S-400 against target moving at 4 km/s speed? There is no information about this.

    They using the rockets of the old SAM systems as target drones, so the speed is there.

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