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    Kalibr missile system

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    max steel

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  max steel on Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:41 pm

    It can be possible that he is wrong on CEP of Kalibr but i think he is accurate with distance. For an average guy like me these CEP numbers are meaningless , I want missile to hit the target no matter what specifications it has. There is Kh-101 having 5k distance ( i can show you some stuff if you want to.)


    BLOGSPOT is merely a forum to write your stuff & experiences so I won't say his stuff is illegitimate.I guess you haven't read his articles at all, try it they are pretty genuine.

    How do you rate Medium " War is Boring " Blog? It's a crap blog with western fanboys writing on Russia's MOD except 1-2 genuine contributors .

    check few of their articles : Russian Navy is Dying , Russian Aircraft Carrier is a piece of crap etc.


    He's been teaching mathematics and science to candidates for US Naval Academy, Washington University in St. Louis, Seattle University and Massachusetts Maritime Academy for past 18 years. Authored a number of reports and papers, including accepted publication for US Naval Institute ( USNI).


    Follow him on Disqus his knowledge on US and Russian Navy is remarkable.You'll hardly find people especially on Internet sharing such valuable knowledge that too without military fanboyism bias. For eg. USN ASW skills have been eroding, i wasn't even aware about it and he posted it with proof meanwhile westerners and many others believe the myth of Russian subs being tracked by US blah blah.



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    Militarov

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Militarov on Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:51 pm

    max steel wrote:It can be possible that he is wrong on CEP of Kalibr but i think he is accurate with distance. For an average guy like me these CEP numbers are meaningless , I want missile to hit the target no matter what specifications it has. There is Kh-101 having 5k distance ( i can show you some stuff if you want to.)


    BLOGSPOT is merely a forum to write your stuff & experiences so I won't say his stuff is illegitimate.I guess you haven't read his articles at all, try it they are pretty genuine.

    How do you rate Medium " War is Boring " Blog? It's a crap blog with western fanboys writing on Russia's MOD except 1-2 genuine contributors .

    check few of their articles : Russian Navy is Dying , Russian Aircraft Carrier is a piece of crap etc.


    He's been teaching mathematics and science to candidates for US Naval Academy, Washington University in St. Louis, Seattle University and Massachusetts Maritime Academy for past 18 years. Authored a number of reports and papers, including accepted publication for US Naval Institute ( USNI).


    Follow him on Disqus his knowledge on US and Russian Navy is remarkable.You'll hardly find people especially on Internet sharing such valuable knowledge that too without military fanboyism bias. For eg. USN ASW skills have been eroding, i wasn't even aware about it and he posted it with proof meanwhile westerners and many others believe the myth of Russian subs being tracked by US blah blah.




    And i was teaching discrete mathematics and OOP on local college, doesnt mean much. I am very well aware what Blogger is i coded myself some widgets for it back in time, however its not really right tool for stuff like this, its made for highschool guys to write about their day at school, small personal blogs, doesnt help credibility at all.

    I am aware of Izdeliye 111 Kh101/102 but their estimated CEP is also above 10m, and range is belived to be "over 3000km" how much we do not know, range is speculated to be 5000km, which we can assume is possible, also they should have greater accuracy compared to Kalibr coz they use IR imaging scene matching in terminal phase of the flight and not SatNav.

    War is Boring is utterly useless piece of crap which is written by imbeciles. Thats basically my opinion on it, i know about them, they started on Blogger too, i stumbled upon them there before current site was constructed.

    As i said again Kalibr range might be 2.500km for all i know, it could be 3000km, however there is no proof, no legit source for such number since Novator and MoD never gave any. Only source for Kalibr range that is being repeated over and over is from interview/statement by Commander of Caspian flotilla from few years ago during first drills that included launching one, i posted original source in Russian few days ago in some post cant find it now among shitload of bookmarks but if you care you can find it, and that is same source that this guy has. No other source ever existed, and we are both aware that he could have said whatever he wanted to journalist.

    "То, что и полторы тысячи километров для новой ракеты - далеко не предел, сегодня уже ясно. Хотя почему должно быть иначе? Ведь даже предок "Калибра", ракета "Гранат" еще в начале восьмидесятых летала на 3000 километров. И российские оружейники тридцать лет не топтались на месте. Впрочем, точные данные – военная тайна. Эксперты теперь лишь предполагают, что радиус действия "Калибра" может быть не меньше четырех тысяч километров, а значит, всего несколько катеров в Крыму и в Калининграде будут способны контролировать территории почти всей Европы и Ближнего Востока. Каспийская флотилия уже прикрывает и Ближний Восток, и значительную часть Азии, а наличие ракет "Калибр" на Тихоокеанском флоте позволит обеспечить безопасность восточных рубежей страны." - Here for an example they claim it might has range of 4000km, in 2 months it will be 6.000. They are also saying they have "military sources".

    Source: http://www.1tv.ru/news/polit/293911

    And yeah i did read few...not sure what to say, not rly impressed generally speaking, most of it are well known informations if you know where to look. I prefer more solid sources, official ones as much as possible, you wont mind.
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    max steel

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  max steel on Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:17 pm

    I can understand your point of view being a veteran you already know much but for me his knowledge and stuff is fascinating !

    What is CEP ? Explain me with an example
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    Militarov

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Militarov on Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:36 pm

    max steel wrote:I can understand your point of view being a veteran you already know much but for me his knowledge and stuff is fascinating !

    What is CEP ? Explain me with an example

    I am not really veteran haha, i just served in the army and finished reserve officer school i was never really deployed anywhere to get right calling myself really a veteran, i am actually quite young Very Happy.

    CEP in acronyme for Circular Error Probable.

    "measure of a weapon system's precision. It is defined as the radius of a circle, centered at the target, whose boundary is expected to include the landing points of 50% of the rounds.", however CEP is not used only for military accuracy measurements, its mathematic/statistic category, used in economy, navigation, engineering in general. When you check your GPS navigation in car it will probably somewhere have estimated accuracy, which will say for an example 3-4m CEP.



    For guys that like shooting "CEP is defined as the radius of a circle containing the point-of-impact (POI) for 50% of shots." Pure statistic. You fire 100 times, and you then use math to get what is the r of a circle in which 50 shots are placed.

    If you want some literature enjoy:

    http://www.novatel.com/assets/Documents/Bulletins/apn029.pdf
    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a199190.pdf
    http://www.igage.com/mp/GPSAccuracy.htm
    http://www.statshooting.com/papers/measuring-cep-mcmillan2008.pdf
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:10 pm

    Militarov wrote:2.500km range was once claimed to be by commander of Caspitan Fleet

    You'd think he would know the range of the missiles arming his ships...I mean come on pirat


    We know for sure the Kalibr range is at least 1500km...Shoigu when reporting to Putin about the launch said the missiles have a greater range than 1500km
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    Militarov

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Militarov on Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:21 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    Militarov wrote:2.500km range was once claimed to be by commander of Caspitan Fleet

    You'd think he would know the range of the missiles arming his ships...I mean come on pirat


    We know for sure the Kalibr range is at least 1500km...Shoigu when reporting to Putin about the launch said the missiles have a greater range than 1500km



    I never said he does not know their range, question is did he say the truth? It would not affect him in any to overestimate/underestimate their range in any of the two directions. Why is going to say he is is lying Very Happy? Novator? Russian MoD? And that wouldnt be first or last time that military comander lies about such things for pure publicity or simply drops "a bite" for "enemy".

    Greater yes, how much xD? 1600, 2000, 2500, 3000? Thats what we do not know, area for speculations is huge and i prefer to have some solid source rather than just an inteview.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:41 pm

    I guess we won't know for sure until we see the producers documents.....one more source, from exactly a year ago....pretty reliable IMO

    Дело в том, что ракетный корабль ”Дагестан” стал первым кораблем в составе ВМФ России вооруженным новейшим ракетным комплексом ”Калибр-НК” предназначенным для нанесения ракетных ударов по морским целям на дистанции до 350 км и по береговым до 2600 км!

    Frigate "Dagestan" (in 2012) was the first warship in the VMF to be armed with the new missile system Kalibr-NK that can engage sea targets at a distance of 350km and land targets up to a distance of 2600km

    http://eurasian-defence.ru/?q=node/31968

    By Artem Balabin author of  "We Bear the Flag of St Andrew" and consultant on Naval matters
    http://eurasian-defence.ru/node/26653

    BTW, nice pic of the missile from the link

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    Militarov

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:18 am

    Cyberspec wrote:I guess we won't know for sure until we see the producers documents.....one more source, from exactly a year ago....pretty reliable IMO

    Дело в том, что ракетный корабль ”Дагестан” стал первым кораблем в составе ВМФ России вооруженным новейшим ракетным комплексом ”Калибр-НК” предназначенным для нанесения ракетных ударов по морским целям на дистанции до 350 км и по береговым до 2600 км!

    Frigate "Dagestan" (in 2012) was the first warship in the VMF to be armed with the new missile system Kalibr-NK that can engage sea targets at a distance of 350km and land targets up to a distance of 2600km

    http://eurasian-defence.ru/?q=node/31968

    By Artem Balabin author of  "We Bear the Flag of St Andrew" and consultant on Naval matters
    http://eurasian-defence.ru/node/26653

    BTW, nice pic of the missile from the link


    Yeah i prefer to trust and wait legit sources, producer is the best source actually. All these bloggers, army rejects and "specialists" of varios kinds are mostly picking info where i can pick it myself.

    Nice one, from docks.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Viktor on Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:32 am

    Wow ... Very Happy thumbsup



    LINK
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    Militarov

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:43 am

    Viktor wrote:Wow ... Very Happy thumbsup



    LINK

    As i said, in 2 months it will be 6.000.

    "То, что и полторы тысячи километров для новой ракеты - далеко не предел, сегодня уже ясно. Хотя почему должно быть иначе? Ведь даже предок "Калибра", ракета "Гранат" еще в начале восьмидесятых летала на 3000 километров. И российские оружейники тридцать лет не топтались на месте. Впрочем, точные данные – военная тайна. Эксперты теперь лишь предполагают, что радиус действия "Калибра" может быть не меньше четырех тысяч километров, а значит, всего несколько катеров в Крыму и в Калининграде будут способны контролировать территории почти всей Европы и Ближнего Востока. Каспийская флотилия уже прикрывает и Ближний Восток, и значительную часть Азии, а наличие ракет "Калибр" на Тихоокеанском флоте позволит обеспечить безопасность восточных рубежей страны." - here too
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    GarryB

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:03 am

    Thing is that entering error on purpose in navigation signals stopped long ago, there is no difference between military and civilian GLONASS/GPS today (however it did exist, GPS even had scrambled signal with eror being added on purpose), except i suppose that most of the military devices have dual GPS/Glonass chips for increased accuracy and versatility in case one of the two is not available for whatever reason.

    the military GLONASS signal will be rather more accurate than the public signal.

    Plus Kh-101 and Kh-102 have terminal guidance for accuracy.... I would suspect the naval version would too.

    I personally expected CEP to be somewhat like on Tomahawk, 8-11m.

    CEP is a mathematical measure of statistical accuracy... optical systems are always more accurate than any satellite or inertial navigation system... otherwise there would be no point in adding terminal guidance systems.

    I am aware of Izdeliye 111 Kh101/102 but their estimated CEP is also above 10m, and range is belived to be "over 3000km" how much we do not know, range is speculated to be 5000km, which we can assume is possible, also they should have greater accuracy compared to Kalibr coz they use IR imaging scene matching in terminal phase of the flight and not SatNav.

    Their estimated CEP is above 10m, their practical CEP was actually lower in tests... the same experience with Iskander... estimated CEP of 15m and results showed 5-7m in actual tests.

    Are you also aware that Kh-102 and Kh-101 are rather heavier than the Kh-55 missiles they were designed to replace and their range of 5,500km is suspected by some to allow ground launchers as it exceeds the range limitations of the INF treaty...

    With all the standardisation and unification they are implementing in their military are you suggesting that the Russian navy would decide not to use technology developed for air launched cruise missiles in their ship and sub launched cruise missiles?

    With the technology already developed I would think it would be silly to not use it.

    But you are entitled to your opinion.

    Here for an example they claim it might has range of 4000km, in 2 months it will be 6.000. They are also saying they have "military sources".

    The Granat had a range of 2,500km in the 1980s, why would a larger heavier missile with improved electronics and propulsion do better now?

    You can of course think what you like.

    What is CEP ? Explain me with an example

    CEP is a mathematical measure of expected accuracy.

    Depending upon the level of precision it basically uses a standard bell curve to estimate accuracy on target.

    For guys that like shooting "CEP is defined as the radius of a circle containing the point-of-impact (POI) for 50% of shots." Pure statistic. You fire 100 times, and you then use math to get what is the r of a circle in which 50 shots are placed.

    Actually DRMS, 2DRMS, CEP, and R-95 on that chart all measure the same thing, where DRMS and CEP are the same and 2DRMS and R-95 are the same... what is missing is 99% probability CEP.

    At the school I attended they just abbreviated them to CEP with 50%, 95% and 99% accuracy and as you probably noticed yourself the difference between 50% and 95% is simply multiplying 50% by two. Shock horror the difference between 95% and 99% is also multiplying by two as well, so CEP-50% times two = CEP-95% and CEP-50% times four = CEP-95% times two = CEP-99%.

    Very simply if your missile has a CEP of 5 metres then draw a 5m diameter circle around the aim point and depending on the level of accuracy (50,95,99) 50%, 95%, or 99% of impacts will occur inside that circle.

    Of course we are talking about probability so even with a CEP of 2km a Scud could easily hit a target building directly with on shot, but could just as easily land 20m 200m 1,500m or 2km away.

    Wow ... Very Happy thumbsup

    That is the subsonic/supersonic model... the subsonic all the way model should be able to travel further.


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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:22 am

    GarryB wrote:The Granat had a range of 2,500km in the 1980s, why would a larger heavier missile with improved electronics and propulsion do better now?

    The Kalibr is a further development of the Granat, which is why they have similar characteristics including max range....2500 km

    The RK-55 Granat is a submarine (SS-N-21 ‘Sampson) and ground-launched (SSC-X-4 ‘Slingshot’, 3K10) intermediate range cruise missile developed by the Soviet Union from 1976. The RK-55 is the submarine/ground-launched component of the “55” series of cruise missiles which also included the Kh-55 (see separate entry) air-launched missile. This family of cruise missiles was the Soviet Union’s response to the U.S. Tomahawk series. 1 The ground-launched variant was dismantled and destroyed due to the signing of the 1987 INF Treaty.

    ....

    Range:2,400 km (submarine), 3,000 km (ground)

    http://missilethreat.com/missiles/rk-55-ss-n-21ssc-x-4/
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    GarryB

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:21 am

    The Kalibr is a further development of the Granat, which is why they have similar characteristics including max range....2500 km

    The Klub export missiles and Kalibr domestic models are based on the Granat... but why do you think they would have the same range?

    Do you think the Kh-101 and Kh-102 have the same range as Kh-55 from the 1980s with a range of 3,000km?

    (Granat and Kh-55 were not related BTW)

    You posted an image showing the combined subsonic supersonic Klub missile described as having a flight range of 4,000km... how could that be if a similar missile without the rocket fuel to accelerate the final stage of the weapon to mach 3, but with active radar homing and a conventional HE warhead can get to 4,000km distant targets, then why would the same missile design that is subsonic all the way have a shorter range?

    BTW the original missiles got better range by flying at medium height at low subsonic speeds... flying low all the way would certainly reduce radar signature but also reduce max range by a significant margin.


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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The Kalibr is a further development of the Granat, which is why they have similar characteristics including max range....2500 km

    The Klub export missiles and Kalibr domestic models are based on the Granat... but why do you think they would have the same range?


    I'm going by what reputable sources are saying, a max range of about 2500km....it's been mentioned for at least a couple of years already

    You posted an image showing the combined subsonic supersonic Klub missile described as having a flight range of 4,000km... how could that be if a similar missile without the rocket fuel to accelerate the final stage of the weapon to mach 3, but with active radar homing and a conventional HE warhead can get to 4,000km distant targets, then why would the same missile design that is subsonic all the way have a shorter range?

    Someone else posted the image. I think Daddy Dragon  Smile

    I'm sceptical of the 4000km range claim, which has only appeared since the Syria launch....it's quite possible that a longer ranged version is being worked on. I'll try to dig something up...time permiting

    Do you think the Kh-101 and Kh-102 have the same range as Kh-55 from the 1980s with a range of 3,000km?
    (Granat and Kh-55 were not related BTW)

    No
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:48 pm

    Well I did just post an article on the new development of detonation engines which should double fuel efficiency and thrust, in which such engines are directly applicable to cruise missiles. Who's to say there isn't a Kalibr 3M-14 test bed version of such technology, being tested in secret? Of course just speculation... Wink


    Last edited by magnumcromagnon on Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    max steel

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  max steel on Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:56 pm

    Does Platform has any role to play ? I mean is there any difference in the impact of air launched cruise missile or naval launched?
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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:58 pm

    max steel wrote:Does Platform has any role to play ? I mean is there any difference in the impact of air launched cruise missile or naval launched?

    The higher the altitude and speed, the greater the range you can get from firing an air-launched missile.
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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:13 pm

    "artjomh" is probably the most knowledgable on these matters....wonder why he hasn't given us his 2 cents Surprised dunno
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    max steel

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  max steel on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:20 pm

    Cyberspec wrote: "artjomh" is probably the most knowledgable on these matters....wonder why he hasn't  given us his 2 cents Surprised dunno

    I know someone more knowledgeable but he rides solo. Wink
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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  artjomh on Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:41 pm

    Cyberspec wrote: "artjomh" is probably the most knowledgable on these matters....wonder why he hasn't  given us his 2 cents Surprised dunno

    Sorry, I wasn't paying attention and scanning the page I am not sure what's the point of contention. What's the question?

    Also, I am assuredly not "most knowledgeable". But I can add my two pence.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:22 am

    artjomh wrote:Sorry, I wasn't paying attention and scanning the page I am not sure what's the point of contention. What's the question?

    Also, I am assuredly not "most knowledgeable". But I can add my two pence.

    We're discussing the Kalibr-NK's max range....whether reports of a 2500 km range are true or not
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    artjomh

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  artjomh on Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:43 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    artjomh wrote:Sorry, I wasn't paying attention and scanning the page I am not sure what's the point of contention. What's the question?

    Also, I am assuredly not "most knowledgeable". But I can add my two pence.

    We're discussing the Kalibr-NK's max range....whether reports of a 2500 km range are true or not

    Ah, ok, this is really a non-issue.

    - 3M10 is a two-stage cruise missile that has a weight of 1700 kg, length of 6,2 meters (without rocket booster) and uses a R95A-300 turbojet engine that has specific fuel consumption of 0,785 kg/kgf per hour

    - 3M14 is a two-stage cruise missile that has a weight of 1570 kg, length of 6,2 meters (without rocket booster) and uses a TRDD-50B turbojet engine that has specific fuel consumption of 0,71 kg/kgf per hour

    In ballistic gliding flight mode, 3M10 has sufficient fuel for 2400-2700 km, according to different sources. 3M14 is lighter and has a more fuel efficient engine. It will definitely have range at least as large as 3M10.

    Exact range would be impossible to calculate since fuel chemistry has advanced significantly since the 70's and today fuels are often more energetic (even though the main fuel is still kerosene), however, 2500 km range is entirely believable and logical.


    Last edited by artjomh on Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Rmf

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Rmf on Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:27 pm

    Rk-55 granat had a 2.500km range from subs ,or 3.000km from land. boosters were the same but sub version was a bit shorter because of torpedo tubes dimensions...
    I am sure new kalibr has about 3.000km range. Also depends if its all low-low flight profile or high-low !
    Even Iskander is a son of OKA and it boosts some paramethers by 10-30%.
    on air launch versions there isnt a solid booster because missile has good initial speed and height.
    Also weight is reduced ,which is good since its more of an issue for planes then for naval ships and subs.
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    Those were Kalibr-NK cruise missiles

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:56 pm

    artjomh wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:
    artjomh wrote:Sorry, I wasn't paying attention and scanning the page I am not sure what's the point of contention. What's the question?

    Also, I am assuredly not "most knowledgeable". But I can add my two pence.

    We're discussing the Kalibr-NK's max range....whether reports of a 2500 km range are true or not

    Ah, ok, this is really a non-issue.

    Thank You
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    max steel

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    Russia’s Kalibr Cruise Missiles Able to Travel 2,000 km

    Post  max steel on Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:40 pm

    Russia’s Kalibr Cruise Missiles Able to Travel 2,000 km

    Russia's Kalibr cruise missiles, which shocked and awed ISIL and the rest of the world when they were used in combat in Syria, have a range of 2,000 km, Rear Admiral Viktor Kochemazov told journalists.


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