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    Kalibr missile system

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    GarryB

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:09 am

    That would be doubtful. Unless the Russians somehow got a missile to have x2 more range at the same size, putting the 40N6E's on a corvette's VLS would be wish.

    I said it would only be under very specific circumstances, but the large S-400 missile with the lofted flight trajectory is supposed to be able to engage targets at 400km range, and if the Redut VLS can handle all the missiles of the S-400 system then it makes sense that when fitted to even small surface vessels it wont suddenly lose its capacity to hold the larger missiles.

    For normal duties it is most likely to be fitted with the two small missiles of the S-400 system (with 40km and 120km range missiles), which as TR-1 points out are still very long range and capable missiles for a Corvette, which traditionally have been armed with MANPADs and Osa/Tor class SAMs.

    But for a role of Radar picket vessel using target information from other platforms as a sort of SAM trap then such a loading might make sense.

    In many ways it is akin to the PVOs idea of using the Su-30 with its larger and more powerful radar to operate with a flight of Mig-29s where the Su-30 uses its two man crew, where one crewman flys the plane and the other crewman operates the onboard large radar and data from ground radar and AWACS aircraft to find targets at maximum range. The Su-30 does not launch its own missiles at these targets, it directs the Mig-29s within its flight to move closer to the targets in radar and radio silence and to climb and accelerate and then launch their missiles at the target, which the Su-30 will monitor and guide. The enemy will detect the Su-30, and will detect incoming missiles but may not detect the Mig-29s who can... after firing their BVR missiles withdraw and rearm and refuel and return to combat.
    This gives the Su-30 the best standoff capability, and it is still fully armed and ready for combat, and allows it to use its radar to best effect. The Mig-29s receive target data from the Su-30 so their radar screens show threats even though their radars are not emitting, and of course they can still listen with their radars and IRSTs for extra target information without giving away their position.
    By climbing and accelerating they burn off a lot of fuel, but also give a lot of extra energy to their missiles to maximise their range and terminal energy.

    In many ways the Corvettes could be used in the same way with their small size and speed an advantage, while the long range of their missiles means they don't need to get close to the targets they are engaging in the first place. 400km range SAMs means they can engage enemy aircraft over an enormous volume of sky, a circle with a 400km radius means a circle 800km across... which is huge... and there will be rather more Corvettes than Kirovs...
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    George1

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:00 am

    Cyberspec wrote:The domestic LR Club which BTW is called Kalibr, comes in a version with a 2000km range. I doubt very much that can be launched from a fighter sized aircraft (including the Su-34)

    We havent seen this missile yet however. But i agree, i think it will be carried from Tu-160 and Tu-22M3
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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:40 pm

    The article Cyberspec mentions above says it will use the Il-76 as a platform.

    I rather suspect the plan is for theatre or tactical use of these missiles.

    One of the main problems of cruise missiles is that they get more effective when you launch them in large numbers, but assembling large numbers of launch platforms attracts attention and could give away the fact that your country might be under attack.

    It is possible they might plan to fit underwing pylons on Il-76 aircraft an use them as cruise missile carriers, but I suspect carrying a huge bundle of cruise missiles in a big pallet that releases half a dozen to a dozen cruise missiles at once would be covert as it would not be seen till the missiles were released, and also allow enormous numbers of missiles to be released on a target area at one time.

    With a payload capacity of 60 tons for the new production Il-476 it could probably hold 20-26 missiles at 2 tons each with pallets and parachutes to stabilise the pallets as it falls.

    Release from 10,000m or above on a normal flight path would give time for separation of the cruise missiles from the pallet especially if the pallet is parachute retarded and stabilised.

    A more expensive option could be to have a bomb bay in the floor of the Il-476 through which missiles are released, which would be more expensive and require custom designed aircraft.

    A fully developed pallet system could be used in any transport type with rear ramps... an AN-225 could carry an enormous load of cruise missiles.

    Of course if you limited the missile weight to about 1.5 tons with a range of about 2,000km then the number of missiles carried per aircraft increases.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:34 am

    Have a look at this model:



    On the left side top is a picture of the Klub cruise missile on the Iskander tactical missile vehicle, but if you look on the right hand side you will see the standard UKSK launcher.

    If you look at the top you will see 8 hatch covers (two rows of 4 hatches) but if you look underneath you will see two very large diameter tubes.

    The standard UKSK launcher has 8 missile launch tubes, but each UKSK launcher is made of two modules each with four launch tubes.

    Each of the 8 launch tubes on the UKSK is designed to hold one Klub or Kalibr or Oniks/Yakhont/Brahmos missile.

    All of which are long relatively slim missiles.

    The vertical launch system that causes confusion is the Redut SAM system, which is for SAMs what UKSK is for cruise missiles.

    Being a unified launcher for Russian Naval SAMs means it has to deal with huge missiles like the S-300 Rif-M and the large S-400 missiles as well as smaller missiles like the new Vityaz missiles based on the smaller S-400 missiles.

    This results in the missiles being carried in different capacities as the large missiles need to be accommodated in the launch tubes, while the smaller Vityaz missiles are quite long, but are narrower and can be put in smaller tubes.

    Because the tube size is fixed of course that means they have special adaptor sleeves to allow 4 of the smaller missiles to be fitted in one tube, so a 14 tube launcher of Redut can either carry 14 large long range heavy SAMs or 14 x 4 of the smaller missile or 56 of the smaller missiles.

    With even smaller missiles like Morfei the number that can be fitted is unknown, but obviously with such large tubes using smaller missiles gets very inefficient unless you can stack them on top of each other and use the full length of the tube.
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    TR1

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:47 am

    Though this does raise a question, given the actual range of the Kalibr vs Klub, what do we know about the range of the domestic Kalibr with supersonic section?
    Is it even being purchased?
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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:44 am

    Western sources like to gloat over the fact that the supersonic Klub had a troubled start... but then Bulava had a problem start too.

    The thing is that the supersonic Klub is genius... there was traditionally the subsonic cruise missile which had advantages like long range and fairly small signature in radar and IR, and there was the supersonic missile which needed to be fairly huge to get any sort of reasonable range, but to fly supersonically for any decent distance it needed a jet engine which meant it was only really fast at high altitude and it would have a large IR signature.

    The Klub combines the virtue of both systems... it can fly low all the way on a subsonic turbojet engine which is efficient at low altitudes, but when it gets to the radar horizon of the target it launches its rocket section which because it only needs to cover tens of kms instead of hundreds can be much smaller and lighter, yet covers those last few vulnerable kms at very high speed because of the rocket propulsion.

    Brilliant.

    Of course the idea is based on the Alpha cruise missile which was a strategic level weapon of the same concept... subsonic several thousand kms and then supersonic close to the target area to breach the close in defences.

    If it is supersonic all the way then it wont be a rocket unless it is huge... a naval extended range Iskander? The INF treaty does not apply to naval weapons so a 2,000km naval Iskander is not impossible.
    Of course a more likely alternative would be a scramjet model of Onyx whose high speed could increase the flight range considerably...

    One would assume that the Yasen class follow the concept the Russian Navy has been following for the last few years and is fitted with UKSK launchers which means the missile should be Yakhont/Onyx/Brahmos like.

    Remember that they could be talking about the Russian equivalent of Brahmos II, because although Brahmos II is restricted to a warhead of less than 500kg and a flight range of less than 300km the Russian version is not.

    Brahmos has land attack capabilities while Onyx... in its original form was an anti ship weapon.

    With Glonass guidance I suspect adding land attack capabilities will be so trivial that they will likely do it even if they never end up using it in that role.
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    GarryB

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    Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:11 am

    So what they are saying is that the supersonic Klub missile is ready for service on submarines.

    The UKSK launcher is an 8 tube vertical launch system for long heavy missiles.

    It can carry Klub, Kalibre, and Yakhont/Brahmos/Oniks type missiles.

    The missile called Kalibre is a development of the SS-N-21 Sampson, and is a subsonic 2,500km range land attack cruise missile.

    Two of the other Klub missiles are anti ship missiles that in their domestic models should have much greater ranges than the export versions which are restricted to 300km or less by international export agreements.

    One of those other Klub missiles is just a subsonic all the way anti ship missile very similar to Tomahawk.
    It should have a range of about 2,500km in the domestic model.

    The other Klub is a subsonic cruise missile that has a terminal stage with its own rocket motor that carries the guidance system and the warhead, and according to reports about the supersonic or hypersonic Klub with a range of 1,500km I rather suspect that this is the domestic model of this weapon.

    Very simply it is launched like the subsonic models and it flys subsonically most of the way at medium altitude to maximise range and increase flight speed. When it gets to a point that is near the radar horizon of the target it scans for the target and when it detects that target and learns its precise position it will drop down to very near sea level and launch the rocket stage. The rocket stage accelerates the missile from high subsonic to mach 2.9 in the export version and it covers the last 30-40km to the target at very high speed in a few seconds. (note at mach 2.9 it is travelling at about 1km per second so 40km is only 40 seconds of flight time).

    Talking about equipping the Yasen with this weapon perhaps means they have cleared it for underwater launch, but those same launch tubes can be used for the other Klub, Kalibre, as well as the Yakhont/Brahmos/Oniks missiles, and one would assume Brahmos II developments too.

    There are two other Klub missiles, one designed for sub launch from UKSK launch tubes and one designed for surface ship launch from UKSK tubes. Both deliver a homing torpedo by ballistic rocket at mach 2.5 out to 40-50km depending on the model.

    The source said that the Kalibr supersonic high-precision missile is capable of targeting aerial, submarine and coastal targets, and is effective up to an operational range of 375 kilometers.

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_08_14/New-cruise-missiles-for-Russian-Yasen-class-sub/

    Can target aerial and land targets as well as naval targets... interesting!

    Would be interesting to see a Yasen class SSN fighting off P-8s with Kalibrs'.


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    TR1

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:32 am

    From what I have seen, domestic Klub/Kalibr with supersonic stage has 375km range. Export is 220km.

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Austin on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:11 am

    TR1 wrote:From what I have seen, domestic Klub/Kalibr with supersonic stage has 375km range. Export is 220km.

    Correct supersonic stage has 375 km and subsonic LACM Kalbir has range of 2600 km as officially disclosed.

    I always wondered why does Russia develop a Klub for Navy and Kh-555/Kh-101 for the Airforce having 2 different cruise missile is really duplication of resource.

    Better to have a single missile and then modify it for Airforce , Navy and Land Forces like US does with Tomahawk
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    TR1

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:15 am

    Austin wrote:
    TR1 wrote:From what I have seen, domestic Klub/Kalibr with supersonic stage has 375km range. Export is 220km.

    Correct supersonic stage has 375 km and subsonic LACM Kalbir has range of 2600 km as officially disclosed.

    I always wondered why does Russia develop a Klub for Navy and Kh-555/Kh-101 for the Airforce having 2 different cruise missile is really duplication of resource.

    Better to have a single missile and then modify it for Airforce , Navy and Land Forces like US does with Tomahawk

    The US made a different missile for the Air Force exactly as the USSR did.

    AGM-86 and Tomahawk are different.
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    GarryB

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    From what I have seen, domestic Klub/Kalibr with supersonic stage has 375km range. Export is 220km.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:58 am

    Different requirements.

    Navy needs something that will fit in torpedo tubes, airforce needs something that will fit in existing rotary internal launchers.

    Next generation hypersonic cruise missiles might be developed together perhaps... simply because of the cost being shared...

    I remember reading from a few sources that the Kh-102 and 101 were compatible with the UKSK, but I suspect they meant dimensionally compatible rather than actually integrated into the system.


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    TR1

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    The land attack one is the longest range variant seen so far with range around 2600km.

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:36 am

    The land attack one is the longest range variant seen so far with range around 2600km.

    Supersonic Anti-Ship Kalibr has been stated as having a range of 375km.

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:41 am

    TR1 wrote:The land attack one is the longest range variant seen so far with range around 2600km.

    Supersonic Anti-Ship Kalibr has been stated as having a range of 375km.

    Cool can you give me the link of that land attack version? in English. lol
    Have been unable to find that information ,other than forums.
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    TR1

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    is this the reason why russian wont induct brahmos in their navy ? why they went in JV with india if they were not planning to buy those missiles themselves ?

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:48 am

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/255530.html

    I don't really read English sources, but here is a Russian admiral specifically addressing Kalibr range, when the weapon was first launched from the Dagestan corvette.

    "Результаты испытаний положительные, — сообщил командующий флотилией. – Корабль неплохой, с современной начинкой. В настоящее время это самый мощный в вооружении Российского флота корабль. На нем установлен ракетный комплекс, дальность стрельбы которого по надводным целям 375 км, а по береговой цели – до 2600 км. Таких комплексов с мощным ракетным оружием в России больше нет, только на подводных лодках".

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:59 am



    Is there any place to learn about all family of Caliber Missiles.. the non export version ,ie... the ones Russian Navy will operate?
    and if possible in English?


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    TR1

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  TR1 on Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:05 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    Is there any place to learn about all family of Caliber Missiles.. the non export version ,ie... the ones Russian Navy will operate?
    and if possible in English?


    Very limited info - what are you looking for?

    It shares the same guidance and approach principles, the most striking difference being range.
    We were all suspicious for a long time why a missile the size of Club and with that engine had such low range compared to say Granat...now we know.

    So far we have only info on the supersonic and subsonic anti-surface versions being operated, nothing about the anti-sub ones. Seeing is believing, and no sight of em yet.
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    GarryB

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    Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:06 am

    So far we have only info on the supersonic and subsonic anti-surface versions being operated, nothing about the anti-sub ones. Seeing is believing, and no sight of em yet.
    The export versions are called Klub and pretty much come in 5 different weapon versions for export... the subsonic all the way land attack missile, the subsonic all the way anti ship missile and the subsonic approach and mach 3 (2.9) terminal attack anti ship model, plus two different anti sub models which both use solid rocket boosters for the ballistic phase and a homing torpedo payload section for the terminal phase. The difference between the two anti sub missiles is that one is designed to be sub launched from a UKSK launcher bin and the other is designed to be launched from a UKSK launch bin on a surface vessel.


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    GarryB, I have a question for you (a couple, to be exact).

    Post  Mike E on Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:10 am

    GarryB, I have a question for you (a couple, to be exact). 

    Do you have any more information on the 2500km range Kalibr (Klub)? I cannot seem to find information on it anywhere! 

    This question is on the same missile, does it have a "supersonic warhead" like the other Klub missiles?



    I think the biggest "threat" to AShMs is the RIM-162 ESSM. Since it hasn't been tested against Russian AShMs, its performance is unknown. Isn't it funny that the Zumwalt class lacks even a single CIWS? It is almost like they want it to be destroyed!
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    GarryB

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:39 am

    Do you have any more information on the 2500km range Kalibr (Klub)? I cannot seem to find information on it anywhere!

    The information you read about is all about Klub and therefore about export products.

    Kalibr is not for export.

    Very simply the Soviet Navy developed a 2,500km range cruise missile that NATO called Sampson and gave the ASCC code of SS-N-21 Granat (Not to be confused with the 7 ton Granit of the Kirov/Oscar/Kuznetsov vessels).

    250m CEP of Granat meant it was a nuke only.

    Enter new technology and new terminal guidance and navigation and you end up with Kh-101 and Kh-102 terminal seeker and long range guidance fitted to the old Granit and you get Klub.

    In the export family you have the subsonic all the way anti ship or land attack model with a range of about 290-300km as per international export restrictions. There is also the version with the pointy nose that flys 250km to the target at subsonic but launches a rocket powered payload the last 50-80km to penetrate the last line of defences of a ship.

    The Russian versions are not limited by export restrictions so their anti ship subsonic all the way missile could easily have the 2,500km range of Granat, while their subsonic land attack missile is called Kalibr and also has a 2,500km range and a very small CEP. the main question regards the high speed missile... my personal opinion is that the subsonic section has a range of 1,000 to 1,500km with the supersonic section reaching the same 50-80km at very low altitude.

    Russian domestic models are not revealed publicly and so information is occasionally slipped but confirmation is difficult.

    For a while Naval officials were talking about a 5,000km range cruise missile... the Kh-101 and Kh-102 air launched missiles used by the Russian air force have this range so an upgraded ship and sub launched model is not impossible.

    Plus, they are barely even on more than a couple US ships. The US is relying on the old Phalanx system instead.)

    The Soviets/Russians have always taken anti ship missiles more seriously than the US or Brits... their larger ships have 8 or more gatlings and the introduction of Kashtan was largely to defend against supersonic anti ship missiles.


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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Mike E on Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:25 pm

    Thanks for all the info, that is what I expected.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Viktor on Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:03 pm

    Nice article about Caliber missile system from Charly blog - nothing we did not know but still nice summary  thumbsup

    The accounts of the Russian missile system Caliber ...

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  chicken on Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:43 am

    Viktor wrote:Nice article about Caliber missile system from Charly blog - nothing we did not know but still nice summary  thumbsup

    The accounts of the Russian missile system Caliber ...

    Hi new guy here, just some questions.

    What's the size difference between the 3M-54-1 and the 3M-14? Is the 3M-14 as big as Granat? Because one has a range of only 600km and the other has 2600km while they look almost the same. Also why not use 3M-14 as basis for an anti ship missile instead of the 3M-54-1? Is the seeker that different between the two as to merit a 2000km difference in range?

    Also why is there no Google Earth image for the Caspian Sea?
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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:28 am

    Look at the top of that range chart and ponder on the meaning of the word Especulacion...



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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  chicken on Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:34 am

    GarryB wrote:Look at the top of that range chart and ponder on the meaning of the word Especulacion...


    Okay, then let me modify/rephrase my question.

    Why is there a size difference between the 3M-54-1 and the 3M-14? One has a range of 1600km (oficial not especulacion according to that blog) and the other has lesser range (300km exportacion/ 600km especulacion) while they look almost the same. Why not use 3M-14 as basis for an anti ship missile instead of the 3M-54-1?

    Is 3M-54-1 only for export? Which means his especulacion about the 600km range is useless.
    Or were they suppose to quadpack it in one launcher?

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    Re: Kalibr missile system

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:05 am

    chicken wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Look at the top of that range chart and ponder on the meaning of the word Especulacion...


    Okay, then let me modify/rephrase my question.

    Why is there a size difference between the 3M-54-1 and the 3M-14? One has a range of 1600km (oficial not especulacion according to that blog) and the other has lesser range (300km exportacion/ 600km especulacion) while they look almost the same. Why not use 3M-14 as basis for an anti ship missile instead of the 3M-54-1?

    Is 3M-54-1 only for export? Which means his especulacion about the 600km range is useless.
    Or were they suppose to quadpack it in one launcher?

    You made a valid and interesting question.
    As far i have read the anti-ship missiles warhead and electronics devices have way more than land attack missiles.
    Because anti-ship missiles need to target mobile targets and they have to have powerful engines to do heavy turns and fly fast and also have decoys to fool enemy defenses.. land attack missiles do not need any of that since their targets are static and they can cover/hide while closing a target  behind  a mountain . So i suspect the difference in range had to do with the extra equipment of anti-ship missiles which is extra weight. The numbers i saw for the 3m-14 was 2600km range ,and 3m-54 anti ship up to 700km perhaps the ones with greater range are subsonic and fly most of the time at that speed and only accelerate in the last second of impact and have way less equipment inside than anti-ship missiles.

    edit..

    After looking at at wiki it looks is more an treaty thing the differences more than anything. the Kh-55 a soviet nuclear cruise missile with up 3,000km range some versions..  apparently Russia and USA have an agreement to limit the range of their anti-ship weapons no higher than 600km.  however in a real war such treaties will be mean nothing.., Nothing stop Russia once a war start to use ICBM nuclear armed missile to disable aircraft carriers convoys communications and radars. You blind a naval fleet first with a torpedo with a nuke that will explode away of the range of ship close gatlin gun defenses destroying its electronics and seriously damaging a warship and later finish them with a cruise missile or torpedo ,without any resistance.

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