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    US Navy and Naval Aircraft: News

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:56 pm

    https://news.usni.org/2019/06/03/congress-unhappy-with-ford-class-inability-to-deploy-with-f-35-fighters

    First two Ford class carrier are not able to use f-35. And their cost reached 13 billion $ each.

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:32 pm

    But they'll be able to use the F-35Bs, the STOVL variant, to save the day!
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    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:33 pm

    If the S400 detectes the F35 at 35km compare to 200km for f16/f15/f18/su35 like the Turkish say, then the F35 is certainly worthwhile.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:42 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:If the S400 detectes the F35 at 35km compare to 200km for f16/f15/f18/su35 like the Turkish say, then the F35 is certainly worthwhile.

    Even the small radar of su-35 can detect it at much greater distance than 35km, a much bigger s-400 radar will detect from great distances.

    Nebo and other gamma radars will spot it at even greater distances.

    Most of the time S-400 command post will tell another buk or pantsir to destroy it before it can reach the s-400 thanks to the IADS.

    If it was really 35km, US wouldn't be so affraid to sell f-35s to turkey knowing they will get s-400.


    Anyway back to the topic, 13 billion a carrier not ready to carry f-35 and those f-35 still having major defaults isn't really a success for the US navy. They will still operate mostly f-18 in the next 15 years.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:47 am

    But hang on... the Fords don't have back up steam cats, so they wont be operating any F-18s either... it will be vertical take off F-35s or biplanes...

    There are a range of different radars that support S-400, so if the sets being sold to Turkey only detect export F-35s at 35km I suspect they are not getting the full spec system.

    A bit fishy that the F-35 can be detected at 35km... does that mean a MiG-21 can be detected at 21km?

    Of course it is all a bit redundant as the US seems set to ensure they don't enter service together within the same force structure...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:57 am

    .. the Fords don't have back up steam cats, so they wont be operating any F-18s either... it will be vertical take off F-35s or biplanes...
    + tilt-rotors, helos & UAVs. Bad news for EMALS fans! Perhaps they could install a rump so the lightly armed F-18s can use it! Their AWACSs can fly off a different CVN. Otherwise, it would be super LHAN with 2x+ the aircraft.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:52 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    .. the Fords don't have back up steam cats, so they wont be operating any F-18s either... it will be vertical take off F-35s or biplanes...
    + tilt-rotors, helos & UAVs. Bad news for EMALS fans! Perhaps they could install a rump so the lightly armed F-18s can use it! Their AWACSs can fly off a different CVN. Otherwise, it would be super LHAN with 2x+ the aircraft.
    they could still sell it to India, after installing a ramp, and let it operate mig 29k Very Happy
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:39 pm

    India may not be able to afford it, unless the price is reduced & the US looses $Bs on it. Therefore, the USN will keep them as training & experi/developmental ships &/ use them as LHAs until if/when all the problems r fixed.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:23 am

    Bad news for EMALS fans!

    Why would you say that?

    I am an EMALS fan and I couldn't care less if the Americans can't get one right... it means nothing to me.

    Perhaps they could install a rump so the lightly armed F-18s can use it! Their AWACSs can fly off a different CVN. Otherwise, it would be super LHAN with 2x+ the aircraft.

    The whole purpose of a carrier is awareness and reach... and AWACS provides the visibility and supports air operations which provide the reach... which pretty much makes these carriers big white elephants... with the inside made of solid gold so they are super expensive but still look cheap on the outside...

    Have never seen the F-18 use a ramp for takeoff alternatives without cat support...

    India may not be able to afford it, unless the price is reduced & the US looses $Bs on it. Therefore, the USN will keep them as training & experi/developmental ships &/ use them as LHAs until if/when all the problems r fixed.

    I doubt India would buy it any time within the next two decades... because that is how long the discussions on price would last and even if they got it for free they would find some reason to complain...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:28 pm

    I am an EMALS fan and I couldn't care less if the Americans can't get one right... it means nothing to me.
    If they (who used CAT for decades, after Brits invented it, & sold it to France & Brazil) can't, what r the odds that Russia & China can?
    ..AWACS provides the visibility and supports air operations which provide the reach... which pretty much makes these carriers big white elephants... with the inside made of solid gold so they are super expensive but still look cheap on the outside...
    Have never seen the F-18 use a ramp for takeoff alternatives without cat support...
    Well, they r too expensive to fail & some use will be found for them in the meantime. F-18s can be given some modifications; they already have strong landing gear & airframe. Tilt-rotors can be made into AWACS. Future high speed attack/transport helos & UAVs can also be based on those Ford CVNs.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:33 am

    If they (who used CAT for decades, after Brits invented it, & sold it to France & Brazil) can't, what r the odds that Russia & China can?

    Ahhh, because of course if the Brits and Americans can use steam cats then they can immediately overcome the problems involved in EM cats, but the fact that they clearly are not means no one can.

    So I assume you will claim that not only will China not be able to develop EM cats but also wont be able to develop steam cats either and that of course carrier borne fighters will also elude them as a technology... because clearly they need to start with biplanes and work their way up.

    The facts are that steam cats are complicated and difficult to perfect and require time and energy and experience to develop into a mature system... and EM cats are not different, they require completely new technologies and materials and will require time and energy to develop and then experience to perfect into a mature and effective system.

    The Russians are not disadvantaged by not having had a working steam system... because they are totally different and require completely different technologies and materials.

    Given the choice of a perfected system in steam or EMALS the latter is clearly superior in every way... why would the USN even consider EMALS if it wasn't better?

    So if it is better why would Russia waste time and money and effort developing a clearly inferior system... it would be like developing a new pistol to compete with the Boa... but the new pistol will be a flintlock pistol...  reliably unreliable...

    Well, they r too expensive to fail & some use will be found for them in the meantime.

    Fill them up with plastic waste and dump them offshore around enemy countries.... solves multiple problems all at once...

    F-18s can be given some modifications; they already have strong landing gear & airframe.

    They probably could but would get a huge drop in operational performance because operational weights will drop leading to reduced payload and reduced fuel load...
    Making them less capable than aircraft operating from much older carriers...

    Tilt-rotors can be made into AWACS. Future high speed attack/transport helos & UAVs can also be based on those Ford CVNs.

    Yeah... Funnies testbed... for the next D Day. Two Ford carriers... 26 billion dollars well spent...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:06 pm

    So I assume you will claim that not only will China not be able to develop EM cats but also wont be able to develop steam cats either and that of course carrier borne fighters will also elude them as a technology...
    They had decades to study them from ex-RAN Melbourne they were supposed to scrap & other info. obtained by their Intel. I agree it's not a problem in series but it may take them many years to master EMALS tech, & I doubt they'll want to repeat the USS Ford saga, not having 10 other CVNs like in the USN.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:10 am

    If the S400 detectes the F35 at 35km compare to 200km for f16/f15/f18/su35 like the Turkish say, then the F35 is certainly worthwhile.

    How would Turkey know yet?

    They have trained on the S-400 system in Russia and they have trained on the F-35 in the US, but these two systems have never met in Turkey.

    After flying at supersonic speeds it seems the RAM on the tail area bubbles and falls off so I am not so sure how stealthy an F-35 would remain in a combat situation anyway... sounds like it will be subsonic only till they fix that...

    They had decades to study them from ex-RAN Melbourne they were supposed to scrap & other info. obtained by their Intel.

    They have had decades to study Su-27 engines but still buy them from Russia for new aircraft... do you think the Soviets didn't get hold of the full specs for US steam cat systems? There have been lots of breaches of security during the cold war regarding secrets like that...

    I agree it's not a problem in series but it may take them many years to master EMALS tech, & I doubt they'll want to repeat the USS Ford saga, not having 10 other CVNs like in the USN.

    From the Russian perspective it does not matter whether they develop steam cats or EM cats... no one will actively help them so they need to learn how to produce mature effective systems on their own with their own money... going for steam cats means a less capable result... it is like developing a new sniper rifle... do they start with a flintlock or percussion cap?

    Why invest money in a deadend obsolete technology?

    And they can't repeat the USS Ford saga because their fighter aircraft don't need EMALS to operate from a carrier... it will just be their heavy aircraft types... AWACS and inflight refuelling tanker and transport type.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:23 am

    And they can't repeat the USS Ford saga because their fighter aircraft don't need EMALS to operate from a carrier... it will just be their heavy aircraft types... AWACS and inflight refuelling tanker and transport type.
    They don't need to mimic the PLAN anymore than the USN; if only those aircraft need EMALS, helos &/ tilt-rotors can be used for those missions, saving $Bs in the long run.
    They can design them but the final word will come from the Russian Duma &/ the Kremlin.

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