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    Vann7
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:41 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:Hi all, would be great to see some good views on the following subject.

    RPG-7The RPG-7 as you all know is the most used shoulder launched anti tank weapon in todays conflicts. Its been copied numerous times, but many western forces (i was in the British army) have played down its usefullness mainly down to accuracy and penetration. I personally think its cheap, easy to use, and with the variety of rounds available, its cheapness allows an army to field more anti tank weapons and purchase more rounds, and i would imagine troops training on the system would have greater chance of actually firing a live round, not like when i was in training there was only 8 live LAW 94 allowed for a company of men which meant 8 people got to fire out of around 80 men, and this was about the only chance some people got. Ive fired and RPG-2 which turned out to be extremely faulty (video clip available if people want to see)Whats your views on the RPG-7?

    SPG-9Anti tank gun(man portable type) systems are no longer used by the western nations and production of newer systems have long gone, but yet so many older types are still in service with various armies around the world and the Russian SPG-9 is probably the most common and mostly mounted on a 4x4 etc. New upgraded rounds have been produced over the years. But should it be confined to storage/reserve forces? should armies purchase new more updated equipment?
    AT-3 SAGGERI would also like to ask the same question about the AT-3 Sagger  even with its many upgrades should this also be replaced by newer systems?

    Some of you may ask why i ask such questions. But we can't get away from the fact that despite new systems being developed most of these new systems are either only in use by a handful of forces around the world or in small quantities. The cost of these new systems are sometimes not an option for some countries and then you got got production issues. So with the changing conflicts around the world many armies/rebels/terrorists still relies on this older equipment or finds themselves up against this older equipment.


    Well if we look at the experience of Rpg-7s in Syria used by Rebels..they are next to useless against Tanks and
    even light armored vehicles. Have seen a few videos of T-72s taking 7+ hits of rocket grenades and nothing.
    Rpg-7s seems most useful against combat troops on to attack fighters inside a building.  here is a video of Rpg-7s failing many times..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Wjq3ogLTw&feature=share&list=UU0-BJmmq9v7sDwoEM5Xao8Q

    Seems you need a lucky shot to disable an apc or a tank with cheap portable rockets.
    For modern combat you need nothing less than JAvelins or Kornets ,RPG-29,Rpg-30s and others heavy rocket grenades.
    here is arena defense.

    http://youtu.be/dJz1QSZ-sRw

    I think Rpg-7 will still have a important role in the battlefield against enemy soldiers ,but their role agains armored
    vehicles is questionable for their low range..and vulnerability for using them. people who fire an RPG-7 will have to expose to the fire of machine guns or the gun of a tank that is not alone and properly defended.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:05 am

    Don't be fooled... the new RPG-29 has a fixed calibre of 105mm so in theory the RPG-7 can use a larger warhead... the warhead on the RPG-28 disposable RPG has a warhead 125mm in calibre and is more powerful than the RPG-29 or RPG-27 and could be used on the RPG-7 though with a steep ballistic path.

    Having said that the RPG-7 with thermobaric warheads will continue to be a very powerful anti personel weapon... I would say the problem in Syria for the RPG-7 is lack of new potent rocket designs.


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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  runaway on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:57 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Well if we look at the experience of Rpg-7s in Syria used by Rebels..they are next to useless against Tanks and
    even light armored vehicles. Have seen a few videos of T-72s taking 7+ hits of rocket grenades and nothing.
    Rpg-7s seems most useful against combat troops on to attack fighters inside a building.  here is a video of Rpg-7s failing many times..
    Well i dont agree, in Iraq ther are cases where RPG-7 took out M1A1 tanks, the PG-7VL can penetrate> 500 mm RHA (19.5 in), that should be enough when fired against side or rear. An APC should be penetrated from all angles.
    The PG-7VR can penetrate> 750 mm RHA, and that is adequat against all Tanks, side or rear.
    Its a question of warhead, not sure the rebels always have knowledge so they dont fire HE. Also it may be old ammo, not functional.
    The SPG-9 RR is obselet but the RPG-7 with modern warheads is still a cheap effective weapon in close combat.

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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:13 pm

    rpg-28 is best russia has , its not exported and strictly controlled , its better by 20% in penetration then any rpg-7 od -29 round... on the other hand its single use and also fragile.
    those penetration values are also under ideal conditions and usually something is off during combat ,besides exported rounds are slightly less performing and rough conditions more or less damage the detonators making them less sensitive and late on detonation.... and the correct timing is crucial for good penetration.consider a round going 200m/s ,if the detonator is off by 1 milisecond thats 20cm od distance closer to armour and plasma beam is not forming well.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:26 am

    rpg-28 is best russia has , its not exported and strictly controlled , its better by 20% in penetration then any rpg-7 od -29 round... on the other hand its single use and also fragile.
    I doubt that.
    The 125mm RPG-28 dates back to the late 1990s, and yes it is strictly controlled in terms of exports, but it is fully operational with Russian Army units.

    It is hardly fragile... it is packed in its own protective container unlike RPG-7 or RPG-29 rounds and as the rocket itself is the majority of the weight of the system compare with the light fibreglass tube launcher then carrying 2 rounds per soldier is about the best they could manage whether it was a disposable launcher or not.

    It would not surprise me if they didn't come up with a new launcher hybrid with external warhead (like the RPG-7) but with a tube diameter large enough to allow a significant rocket motor to be fitted.

    Of course I rather expect the RPG-32 might be adapted but with 135mm or 152mm tubes for even larger calibre rockets.

    The other area of growth potential would be full calibre tandem warheads to improve penetration with lighter more powerful explosives and liners used to minimise weight.

    those penetration values are also under ideal conditions and usually something is off during combat ,besides exported rounds are slightly less performing and rough conditions more or less damage the detonators making them less sensitive and late on detonation.... and the correct timing is crucial for good penetration.consider a round going 200m/s ,if the detonator is off by 1 milisecond thats 20cm od distance closer to armour and plasma beam is not forming well.
    Goes both ways of course... not all armour arrays were made perfectly and during operational life standing outside in the heating of the day and freezing of the night cavities can form, rubber liners can perish and fail etc etc. A lot of the protection supposedly from angled armour comes from the angle of the plate, so a low velocity round like an RPG has a more curved trajectory and actually often impacts at a slightly nose down angle which reduces the angle of incidence of the penetration which reduces the effectiveness of angled armour.

    Equally the layers and spacing of materials used are often optimised to stop a particular type of penetrator so different materials of penetrator can effect the protection level of the armour array too.

    For instance having a DU layer might shatter some forms of penetrator, yet with other materials it might vapourise and become far more deadly to those around the impact point for centuries to come (unless it is cleaned up of course).

    If an individual wants a man portable cheap and simple weapon to open a tank the RPG-28 is not a bad choice.


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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:38 am


    Well i dont agree, in Iraq ther are cases where RPG-7 took out M1A1 tanks, the PG-7VL can penetrate> 500 mm RHA (19.5 in), that should be enough when fired against side or rear. An APC should be penetrated from all angles.
    The PG-7VR can penetrate> 750 mm RHA, and that is adequat against all Tanks, side or rear.
    Its a question of warhead, not sure the rebels always have knowledge so they dont fire HE. Also it may be old ammo, not functional.
    The SPG-9 RR is obselet but the RPG-7 with modern warheads is still a cheap effective weapon in close combat.
    Yes there are cases..where M1A2 tanks were also attacked from the rear and killed people inside in IRAQ too. But in the vast majority of cases require several hits to slightly disable a tank and kill at least 1 crew member. But It remain to be seen who will be the brave man who will expose itself to a tank gun with an Rpg-7. Because you will be blown in pieces. under a competent driver/gunner or killed by soldiers with machine guns backing the tank. Rpg-7 in syria in hands of rebels have been next to useless .. in the best best case you need several hits to kill 1 soldier inside and the the other 2 crew leave the tank and survive...and the tank only suffer light damage and is fully repaired and working next day.  I have seen more Mercenaries videos killed trying to disable a tank with an Rpg-7,than tanks disable by them..

    here is one T-72 taking several hits..

    http://youtu.be/Lko_s9nEQPc

    So the performance of Rpg-7s are not very good even to T-72 using reactive armor. Fortunately RPG-7 are very cheap ,but it is a myth they can destroy a tank.. they only disable it at best but lightly. RPG-29 in the other hand can fully destroy tank if you hit near its ammo.  And not saying Rpg-7s are useless.. they are very usefull against infrantry or light armor ,but they shouldnt be used against more armored tanks unless you are lucky and are in the right place ,right time and the tank is alone in urban area without any infantry support.. ie.. not properly used.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:02 am

    ^
    For a bad dancer even his balls are in the way. Old stocks of inferior Egyptian PG-7 are no joke for tank and especially bmp crews. Less common is PG-7VR. And it could do wonders against SAA tanks. It seem to work on newer western tanks pretty well
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:05 am

    The main problem for the Iraqis is that western vehicles are unfamiliar... when aiming at a T-72 they knew where the fuel is stored and where the ammo is located and also where the crew sit.

    A bit of extra experience and training and better rocket warheads and there would be little problem in dealing with any MBT.


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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:45 am

    GarryB wrote:The main problem for the Iraqis is that western vehicles are unfamiliar... when aiming at a T-72 they knew where the fuel is stored and where the ammo is located and also where the crew sit.

    A bit of extra experience and training and better rocket warheads and there would be little problem in dealing with any MBT.
    The RPG-28 is a beast, kinda like having a tank gun in your hands. If I were to face an Abrams, this would be my go to weapon.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:32 pm

    Dealing with tanks might look good on Youtube videos from Syria war. But how many of those RPG shooters get return fire? In Syria - rarely. Thanks for urban environment, lack of good sensors and lack of eyeballs.
    When Russians were attacking Grozny in Second Chechen war tanks and BMPs and even Shilkas were sitting behind. Infantry was vanguard. Fire support behind them was so deadly. If You chance it and try to take out armour behind them then You'll get some attention. AT threats were no1 priority. Russians even engaged suspected positions with ATGMs with thermobaric warheads. Not to mention razvedchiki who were silently sitting on high buildings and scanning for targets and reporting them.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:03 am

    Indeed... even having access to a powerful weapon like RPG-28 you still have the problem of getting within 300m without being seen and you certainly want to be in a place to attack the tank from the sides or the rear... you of course would use terrain and cunning... use resources like mines to channel and direct the enemy... with the Abrams you can further channel it by weakening certain local bridges so the can't cross them and knowledge of where soft ground is can be used to your advantage... an ambush in a forest where the ground either side of the road is very soft is one example... lay mines on either side of the road for a few hundred metres and then in the centre of that mined area put mines across the road in plain view with a few more dug in.

    The tanks will stop when they see the mines, but the mines at the sides of the road will mean they can't leave the road easily. They might turn on the spot and leave... which is when you shoot them in the rear with your rockets... aim for the rear of their turrets to try to set of their ammo...


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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Regular on Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:36 pm

    Even best tanks could be compromised. But it takes planning and I would say a doctrine of attrition. Not all fighters are able to put a proper resistance. In some Syrian war battles FSA were completely wiped out even in their comfort zones. They have loads of ATGMs, RPGs, but the more Syrian war goes the less damage they inflict.
    Soviet school of attrition warfare employed by chechens on other hand proven to be deadly in first Chechen conflict. They used all the tricks in the book. Any tank would be knocked out after being showered by RPGs by people popping out severs, basements, high buildings. Not all insurgents can pull it off though.

    By the way here is the video of tank that was penetrated by rpg(?). I can only presume what it was RPG, they stated that likely it was shot from basement because of an angle. Tank was saved, but driver mechanic most likely killed (RIP). Tank will back in service soon, but cheap AT a

    @11:16
    Any idea was it RPG-29 or RPG-7? I'm not a specialist at penetration patterns.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:02 am

    I doubt anyone could tell based on the penetration hole like that... especially as the RPG-7 can use 105mm HEAT warheads of the same type used on the RPG-29.

    The lower front armour of many tanks is generally not the most heavily armoured either.


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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  runaway on Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:51 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    So the performance of Rpg-7s are not very good even to T-72 using reactive armor. Fortunately RPG-7 are very cheap ,but it is a myth they can destroy a tank.. they only disable it at best but lightly.  And not saying Rpg-7s are useless.. they are very usefull against infrantry or light armor .
    Well, i talk about the weapon system RPG-7, not the tactical way of using them. In desert combat they will be useless, in a city fired from top floors down on top of tanks they would easy take out every modern tank, as none can deal effectively with top attacks.
    Reactive armor, yes they stop or interfere with HEAT warheads, even with APFSDS, so the AT-4 (US or Swedish) will be just as useless against it not just RPG.

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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:47 pm

    well there are proceses during contact with plasma and composite armour /ceramic takes away heat so the copper is part vapourised part cooled and solidifies into solid crystals ,the solid copper is soft and uranium armour stops its high speed easily. but if you choose uranium liner into rpg round you will get much better penetration against DU armours because its denser and harder.So heat protection equvivalent against rpg round of 1200 mm for copper liner will give 900mm for DU liner so theese specialised non exported 105mm rounds are still good for russian army and russian manufacturers are reluctant to increase calibers of heat rounds just yet.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:45 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:well there are proceses during contact with plasma and composite armour /ceramic takes away heat so the copper is part vapourised part cooled and solidifies into solid crystals ,the solid copper is soft and uranium armour stops its high speed easily. but if you choose uranium liner into rpg round you will get much better penetration against DU armours because its denser and harder.So heat protection equvivalent against rpg round of 1200 mm for copper liner will give 900mm for DU liner so theese specialised non exported 105mm rounds are still good for russian army and russian manufacturers are reluctant to increase calibers of heat rounds just yet.
    You literally have no idea how monroe effect works.
    DU in a RPG... maybe we should put tungsten into propellant and play Heavy Metal to it?
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:25 am

    afaik its more dependent on ductility, while DU/W is good for jet resilience against composite armors optimized against copper liners.
    Since RPG-7 is supposed to be cheap, DU and W are not good options since they are expensive as they are and cleanup too is expensive
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:50 pm

    DU is not actually that expensive... it is nuclear waste afterall... but the cleanup issues are very relevant.

    AFAIK the favourite lining material is Molybdenum (spelling), though ferric steel might be a good material against DU armour as the latter reacts quite violently to ferric steel... ie softens and burns white hot...


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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:43 pm

    not true the best metal turned out to be metaloid rare earth , osmium. because of dense plasma.but its extremely expensive. important to note is that DU liner must be homogenus.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:15 am

    Osmium is very expensive as f@ck. Very dense, good for hydrodynamic impacts where density is all that matters, still you're better off with using gold as liner since theres more of it. Twisted Evil 

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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:DU is not actually that expensive... it is nuclear waste afterall... but the cleanup issues are very relevant.

    AFAIK the favourite lining material is Molybdenum (spelling), though ferric steel might be a good material against DU armour as the latter reacts quite violently to ferric steel... ie softens and burns white hot...
    well you know if russia went against usa bit of residual depleted uranium cleanup issues would me minor compared to overall nuclear fallout so DU liners werent considered problematic exept in local conflicts.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:41 am

    For war they would be happy to use whatever did the job, but polluting your own country with nuclear waste during peace time is pretty stupid... though in a sense actually quite clever because down the road a bit having an extra arm might be useful to a soldier... they could aim and fire their weapon and reload ammo into mags at the same time... Embarassed

    The simple facts are that the only enemy Russia would need DU weapons to defeat they already have tactical and strategic nuclear weapons to defeat them, so DU weapons are not needed as such.

    In other words any fight against the US would be the only fight to warrant DU liners but as such a conflict will not be decided by RPG warheads it is fairly pointless to make them.


    Last edited by GarryB on Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:25 pm


    As we were talking about anti tank warfare. Here is amazing performance by both FSA and SAA.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  SSDD on Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:36 am

    I think it is ridiculous to compare RPG 7(A rocket propelled grenade) to SPG 9( a tripod man portable recoliless gun) and At 3 Sagger which is wire guided anti tank missile.Cool 

    Better comparison should be RPG 7 vs M 67 vs Carl Gustaf if it is about to be man portable anti tank system, or SPG 9 vs M 40 if it is about recoilless rifle vs Recoilless rifle thread. If it is about anti tank missile then I dont know any Western Counter part of it except MILAN ATGM.

    How ever this weapons made Armour very much vulnerable.
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    Re: RPG/RPO Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:58 am

    SSDD wrote:I think it is ridiculous to compare RPG 7(A rocket propelled grenade) to SPG 9( a tripod man portable recoliless gun) and At 3 Sagger which is wire guided anti tank missile.Cool 

    Better comparison should be RPG 7 vs M 67 vs Carl Gustaf if it is about to be man portable anti tank system, or SPG 9 vs M 40 if it is about recoilless rifle vs Recoilless rifle thread. If it is about anti tank missile then I dont know any Western Counter part of it except MILAN ATGM.

    How ever this weapons made Armour very much vulnerable.
    From a technical (not tactical) point of view the main qualitative differentiating factor between RPG-7 and SPG-9 is that the RPG-7 is hand-held while the SPG-9 is tripod mounted, hence the use of the terms ручной vs станковый in their respective designations. The means of propulsion for most of their grenade types is the same for both RPG-7 and SPG-9, with both using a two-stage propulsion subsystem involving a "recoilless gun" first stage and a rocket second stage.

    Of course, tactically RPG-7 and SPG-9 have very different roles.

    By the way, can someone knowledgeable in Russian please give the literal meaning of the adjective "станковый"?


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:48 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Mainly adding a question and adding some clarification)

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